Patman

Yes, another very good episode of Angel, and a hum-dinger cliff-hanger at the end.

Does anyone think that Angel's "tryst" with Lilah will materialize in another "baby" while his body was being used by the old man with the body switcheroo power?"

I thought there were some funny lines between Holtz and the demon he made the deal with.

At least it was good to see Fred try to bluff their way out of the hospital room, shows that she's thinking while the others just try and fight their way through the obstables.

Can't wait for next week's episode!

MrN

I thought it was decent - lots of players coming in and out. Kept the excitement going. Didn't really care for the Demon/Holtz stuff but hopefully that was just character development for later. Especially liked that telekinetic ninja guy who came crashing in and was immediately dispatched. And the doctor with the bird feet

The not so good parts - some of the action looked cheesy. The part where a vampire jumps down on Wesley and things seemed to go slo-mo for no reason; almost looked like something got censored.

The other big question I have is - I thought Vampires cast no images - so how was W&H able to record Angel and Darla? is this one of those vampire things thats different in the Buffyverse? I'm trying to think of an old episode where something like this was dealt with, but drawing a blank.

CaptainMarvel

They definitely don't give off a reflection, even in the Buffyverse... think back to a few weeks ago, when Angel's body was taken over. The possessor couldn't see his reflection in the mirror.

das Monkey

I'm pretty disappointed with where they're going. I feel like I'm watching an episode of All My Children (sans SMG) or something. I like the characters, and I'm entertained, but where are they taking this story?

On the topic of the reflection, did we see Angel or just Darla? I wasn't completely paying attention. Maybe it has something to do with the baby inside her? Or maybe they just royally screwed up.

das

Xander

Vamps don't have reflections, but they can be video taped in the Buffy-verse. There's a couple instances of this, but the only one I can think of right off-hand is when Spike tapes Buffy fighting at the beginning of Halloween in Season 2.

X

Timber

I loved this episode and can't wait until next week. Not suprising seeing as how I love every episode Darla is in(I think I might be one of the few). Question? I thought is was said in one of the early Buffy episodes that Angel was 240 years old. Am I wrong here? And if I'm right that throws off alot of the flashbacks.

tofu

Great episode. I really like the direction that the stories are taking even if they are a bit soap operaish. It's ok to do that every so often so long as they don't start doing it all the time. But anyway, I can't wait until next week. The vampire spin on fatherhood should be real interesting.

Timber, why does Angel being 240 throw off the flashbacks? That would put those flashbacks into the late 1700s, early 1800s. Those flashbacks look IMO like they're around that era.

das Monkey

Originally posted by tofubomb
Timber, why does Angel being 240 throw off the flashbacks? That would put those flashbacks into the late 1700s, early 1800s. Those flashbacks look IMO like they're around that era.

I wasn't paying too close attention, but he kept throwing the number "200 years" out when talking about bringing him forward. "I didn't bring you 200 years into the future to screw this up ..." type of stuff.

das

Timber

The point is that the guy for last night(can't remember his name) was not around for the revolutiary war which was 225 years ago. Angel and this guy obviously share at least a few years of history together. So if we say they had been feuding for 3 years that would make Angel around 12 when he was made into a Vampire which is clearly wrong. Now I'm confusing myself.

Patman

Don't vampires lie? I wouldn't get too hung up on Angel's age. I thought he was around 260 years old, give or take 10 years.

MrN

Angel became a vampire in 1753 according to a couple of the timelines on the web.

And thanks Xander - forgot about Spike's videotape. I guess its just mirrors that don't have images.

Slumbering Fist

Well, I thought it was a vast improvement. It really kept moving, and I was surprised at how fast the episode rolled by. Had the unexpexed- the twists the vampire order threw in, and the doctor was a neat character. It was just a much sharper episode than the the others this season.

I still dont like Holtz. He doesnt intimidate me at all- first he's human (and I'd like an explanation how he took on an army of soldiers with guns), and second he's a kinda soft 40-45 yr old man. With all the big goons, or cool character actors they could cast, I dont know why they went with this guy. Yeah, they havent shown much from him, so theres still potential, but,... ehhhh.

And I agree, what was up with the awkward Wesley fighting slo mo shot? Hello editor?!? Wake up! Trim that sucker differently.

But, all in all, despite my misgivings about the directions Angel is taking, at least the writing and execution was much better, which makes it a tolerable show.

Awwjwah

The Wesly shot was slow-mo to show you that he staked the Vamp dropping down on him. It was less a slow mo than the effect you see when they stake a vamp and he desintigrates.

As far as Angel's age and the Holtz guy don't forget that we are talking about him being in europe. At least that is the impresion i got. Angel, like Spike, used to rampage all over Europe causing death and destruction with Darla. Either this guy was good at killin vamps since Angel and Darla didn't kill him, or they contsntly toyed with him like a pet. He may not be the most dangerous guy you have seen but he has nothing to live for but killing Angel. In last weeks episode they also showed a time of early 1700's which puts angels minimum age of around 300 years. As someone said earlier, vamps lie and even with a soul, Angel has lied before.

As far as the story I liked it and I like how it is going. As far as his son, can anyone say Daywalker?

Snake Plissken

Why does the editing of the action scenes really suck this season?

That slowmo Wesley shot was awful.

MrN

I assumed that his demon pals were helping him. I agree with you about the character though - not very tall and intimidating.

Slumbering Fist

Yeah, only they just show Holtz....marching in alone and surrounded. Those demons didnt exactly look like the stealthy type. Plus no hint of them later (when Angel walks in) or in the previews. I think it was just a case of the creators trying to make Holtz look all badass, taking on all those guys alone (which is cheap, seeing as how the guy has never faced a gun that fires hundreds of rounds a minute).

Imagine how much cooler Holtz would be if he were played by, say, Lee Van Cleef? or Lance Henrikson? Actually my top choice, and a realistic one (since Van Cleef is dead, and Henrikson is tired of tv after Milennium) would be b-film bad guy Richard Lynch...

das Monkey

I met Richard Lynch once ... and was scared of him. But, hell, while we're at it, why not just get Michael Ironsides?

das

dfinney

I'd say he's good at killing vamps and they constantly toyed with him. Have you all seen the earlier season flashbacks with Darla turning Angel, Angel turning Dru, etc? Holtz was all over those, too, always pursuing relentlessly but not quite succeeding in killing them.

Not my favorite episode but not all bad. I kind of hope Holtz kills the baby unless they've got some other clever way to get rid of it.

I forgot to watch the credits - who's the guy who played the demon who brought Holtz through time? I thought he sounded familiar, then even looked familiar with his "street face" on.

Wizdar

So, it's not just me. They've thrown in a lot of slowmo and chopped-up scenes (where it looks like half of the frames are missing). I don't think this show needs that, and has done well without it.

I'm also not fond of the big flashes at major scene changes.

I've got to say, when das isn't happy with an episode, it's not a good sign.

This season clearly seems to have no direction.

It looks to me like the new guy at W&H (the Daniel Dae Kim character) may be there for comic relief or something. Fer instance, how he set up the comando raid on the hotel and nobody was home...



Wasn't there an episode where Angel was in the Wolfram & Hart offices and he didn't show up on video? Or am I confused as always again?

KayUK

For those who want to know Angel's age he is exactly 246 in earth years as he told Buffy he was 243 is season 3.

He did go into the deamon realm, which Giles said moved a lot faster in time and that Angel could have been in there hundreds of years.
So overall he's 246 going on 500+

Xander

The actor's name is Jack Conley and he also played Cain, the bounty-hunter who is hunting werewolves in "Phases", Buffy season 2.

X

Slumbering Fist

Yep, any of those guys, just someone with character, be it intimidating, creepy, whatever, thats all they are asking Holtz to do, no high drama really, so get a guy with a little more prescence.

das Monkey

I certainly don't want anyone who wasn't in at least one episode of 'The A-Team'.

das

BizRodian

I have no idea how anyone could not find this episode totally enjoyable. This episode was very well made (espically the first half with Darla signing in blood, Holtz wtahcing the tapes and other things) I am, for the first time, enjoying this arc... which I used to not like one bit.

I also enjoyed the initative arc at first though, and that turned out terrible in the end... so we'll see.

But this arc turned out horrible with the whole baby thing, and right now it's looking alright to me.

For those who don't like the baby idea... See how it plays out first. We don't know yet.

The mail room guy, I think he has part in a larger picture, and that'll come up later. We'll see. He's kind of annoying now.

The ninja guy was kind of a red herring, yes, but at least he didn't take up god damn near 20 minutes like the old toy maker in that Buffy episode a bit back. I'm indifferent to him.

Gavin is awesome, Lilah is same as always. The swat team was cool, and I enjoyed the doctor dude.

Holtz is a neat guy, I like him. I think he has potential. I'm looking forward to see him and Angel fight, and to be honest, I've never looked forward to see anyone fight. So that's saying something.

His demon sidekick is pretty cool as well. His physical apperance is pretty ho-hum, but he's got the personality.

Why can't Buffy turn out villians even HALF this cool? Noooo.. on Buffy we get demon sharks from Power Rangers...

One thing I didn't like was the Football Coach lawyer. What the hell happened to that bald guy with glasses? he was almost as cool as what's his name.. Holden? the first guy... I want baldy back. Or at least make Coach a bit cooler.

The biggest thing though... what's with all the desire to kill the baby? last week they.. you know.. said it had a soul... Yet this episode they were surprised it was a human? what? they seemed to have forgotten everything.

Overall though, very enjoyable episode. It reminded me very much of a part one of a season finale.

As for vampires and reflections. They can be filmed, they can have their photo taken, ect ect. They can't be seen in reflections. That's all. See here for a neat picture. Spike has filmed vampires (the first example of this.) we've also seen Angel on video more then once, and Angel, Darla and Dru's pictures. There's some confusion though, as some say older cameras used a mirror to transfer the image or something....

As for Angel's age, he was turned into a vampire in 1753.

KayUK

Not trying to start an argument with you BizRodian , it's just that I hate inconsistancy.

I watched the season 3 episode Earshot yesterday evening on DVD (originally shown early '99 I think) and Angel says to Buffy "In 243 years I have loved exactly one person."

So somewhere along the line Joss's team have dropped the ball and lost a couple of years.