Ok, I'll open yet another B5 thread. This is for
people who've seen the entire series or don't
mind major SPOILERS for the series.

****BE WARNED, MAJOR SPOILERS AHEAD*************







Ok, hopefully we can talk without upsetting anyone
now watching B5 for the first time.

B5 actully had two series ending episodes; Objects
at Rest and Sleeping in Light. This is the result
of the fact that it looked like there was no way
that B5 was going to get it's fifth and final season.
So jms wrapped up the story line sooner than he would
have liked and filmed a finale, Sleeping in Light.
When TNT stepped in and committed to the fifth season
they pulled the broadcast of Sleeping in Light and
released it as the last episode of season five. But
given a fifth season jms was able to bring the series
to a gradual and rather melancholy end, with the last
two episodes, Objects in Motion and Objects at Rest,
wrapping up the series nicely.

Personally I preferred Sleeping in Light but thought
both were well done. What do you think?

I think it was all well done and was surprisingly impressed with how well Sleeping in Light fit even as the final episode. A lot of people were pissed that the fifth season was anti-climactic, but it seemed appropriate. They had already saved the Universe and retaken Earth; everything after that was bound to be anti-climactic. I guess I don't think of Objects at Rest as a finale, but it works both ways.

I also love what they did with Deconstruction of Falling Stars. Part of me wanted the series to end in a glorious finale, and part of me is impressed beyond description with what they actually did. Man, just talking about these episodes makes me sad :(

das

I think the issue is that most people feel that if there had been a solid commitment for S5, that Joe may have continued the fight for earth into S5 and spread out the telepath storyline between s4 & 5. In other words, it may have "flowed" better.

I liked s5, and found the telepath story interesting. There was a lot of good stuff there.

My season favorites go like this: 3,4,5,2,1.

Here's a question I've been wondering. Every time we hear about the casualties of some war (Earth vs. Minbari, Narn vs. Centauri, Alliance vs. Shadows, etc), the numbers are in the 10,000s and sometimes in the 100,000s. Doesn't anyone ever die by the millions anymore? I know the Narn homeworld is less populated than Earth, but you would think that when the Centauri hit it with Mass Drivers, a lot more than "10's of thousands" would be dead. I think when the Markhab went down, they said "thousands." Perhaps I'm jaded by too many Hollywood films, but deaths in the millions would pack a bigger punch for me and still be realistic.

das

That's true. Especially when you conder that millions
have died in China alone during purges. The Centauri
wouldn't be one's to use thier mass drivers on
unpopulated areas, they'd go for mass destruction or
genocide if they could, and they could. Maybe jms
thought thousands are more comprehensibe than millions?
Who knows, but since we are easliy capable of the
death of millions in a single strike you'd certainly
expect it then with more powerful weapons.

On a lighter note, how is it that the Centauri never
showed appropiate bulges in their clothing for thier
tentacles? Based on what Londo was doing in that card
game their long enough to certainly create bulges in
the kind on clothes they wore.

The other night in "the rock cried out", Londo said in his recording that Refa was responsible for the death of 3 million Narns because he was the one who orchestrated the bombing of the Narn homeworld.

I believe there is a number reference in "In the beginning" to the number of humans killed in the Earth-Minbari war, but I don't remember that one exactly.

Good news and bad news on the new B5 movie on the
SF channel. Good news is that it's completed, bad news
is that it's not airing until January. Here's an article from
today's Atlanta Constitution, it was the headline article
for a section on fall shows:

"The Sci Fi Channel has completed production on the
update to the epic futruistic space series "Babylon 5",
a two-hour TV movie called "Babylon5: The Legend of
the Rangers".

The film, which takes places (sic) shortly after the series
left off but a couple of years before the "Babylon" spinoff
"Crudade", stars Dylan Neal ("Dawson's Creek"), Myriam
Sirois and "B5" regular Andreas Katsulas.

"Legend", which premieres in January, details the saga of
the Ranger fleet as it attempts to restore order to hundreds
of civilizations devastated by the Shadow War. If successful,
the film will serve as a pilot for a potential new series on
the cable network."

SFC has said that they want to see how well the film does
before they make a decision on the series. So get all your
friends to watch. :)

No doubt about it. Who could pass on more B5? I would really love to see them pick up Crusade.

Anyone else think that Deleen was self-centered and cruel? Especially the way she treated Lennier.

D

She certainly could be ruthless at times but I'd call her anything
but self-centered and cruel. I can't think of anything to fault
her with in her treatment of Lennier. Specifics?

Keep in mind that Delenn was raised in the religious caste, studying prophecy day after day. People like that end up very focussed and have a narrow and defined direction to their life. So what came across as self-centered was more confidence in the prophecy and the work she had to do. As for her treatment of Lennier, I don't see anything negative there. She could get high and mighty with the Centauri and Narn when they were acting stupid or forcing her hand, but I don't see that with Lennier.

das

She played Lennier like a fiddle. She saw him as a pet.

Delenn's assistant,Lennier, has been with her for a while. Soon, it's apparent that Lennier is developing feelings for her. She likes him..as a friend. A good thing to do would be to explain this to him asap before he falls deeply in her. But she doesn't. Instead she nurtures the relationship, reeling him in closer.

At the same time, she's shacking up with Sheridan.

So we have Lennier, a lovestruck puppy who would do just about anything for a woman who happily sends him off on suicide missions. Even when Lennier leaves B5 to try to lead his own life, Delenn keeps communicating with him, keeping Lennier on a short leash and ensuring that a clean break wont happen.

Did I mention she's shacking up with Sheridan during this?

And it's no secret that Lennier was in love with Delenn. Everyone knew. It was like a sad, running joke on the station. Sheridan was even uncomfortable with him around.

But Delenn needed a pet to control.

It ends up with Lennier almost killing Sheridan, and running off to deep space, never to be seen again. All while Delenn stands with crocodile tears claiming she had no idea.

D

Wow, that's a pretty negative spin on things.

You're ascribing motives to Delenn that are not
apparent to me. Especially since these are not humans
we're talking about. They're motives and interactions
are not necessarily the same as ours.

And why the repeated references to Delenn "shacking
up" with Sheriden?

Lennier's love for Delenn is his own fault. He's not misled into believing the Delenn harbors some feelings for him. He knows full well and even expresses to other crew members that she will never love him in "that way" and tried to just love her as a friend the way she loves him. You can't fault Delenn for treating her aide like an aide, and to fault her for being a caring and compasionate lifeform is quite harsh. She treated Lennier like a friend she deeply cared about and made no come-hither gestures to mislead him. Just because Lennier loves her, does that mean she can't go off and be happy on her own and have a relationship with someone she loves? Should she sever her friendship with Lennier and never speak to him again because of something he has to get over on his own?

And this pet stuff? Lennier is the aide to a member of the Grey Council. His *job* is to protect her and keep her from harm. His position is expendable; hers is not. He should be running errands for her and going on dangerous missions, so she can focus on her diplomatic duties and save the fate of the galaxy.

Sure it sucks for Lennier, and that's what makes the show strong. It's real. Who hasn't fallen in love with someone they can't have? But it's not the object of affection's fault that she doesn't reciprocate. When it's a close friend, the situation is difficult, but the object of affection can't simply change their life or make a "clean break." It's up to the former to accept his fate and move on. Lennier knew *exactly* what was going on, knew he could not have her, knew she didn't want him, knew she loved him as a friend, and knew she was in love with Sheridan. Delenn did nothing wrong with regards to this. The was caring and compasionate - that is her only crime.

On this topic, it should be noted that Lennier's love for Delenn was not part of JMS' original plan. Late in the first season Bill Mumy went to JMS and said "ya know, I think Lennier may be in love with Delenn." JMS liked the idea but put it aside for a while and suggested the Mumy play it that way, but keep it very VERY low key.

das

It's not Lennier's fault for loving Delenn. It's Delens fault. It should have been apparent to her that his feelings for her would begin to jeopardize their goals. She's supposed to be so in touch with feelings and sprituality, and yet she completely misses this? She -never- told Lennier that anything more than Friendship was impossible. She did this delibrately. A few choice words would have let Lennier down easy. But instead she gives him long soulful glances and caresses his face to comfort him.. etc. etc.

All she had to say was, " I love you, Lennier...but not like that"
But instead she drops bombs like "I don't know what I'd do without you" and "You're so very important to me".

In other words, she strung him along.

D

I disagree. Lennier KNEW she didn't love him, and knew that she loved Sheridan. He admitted to Marcus in the episode where she was kidnapped that she didn't love him like he loves her. He also tried to view his love with her as something, "nobler and pure". You could tell at that point that he was lying to himself and deluding himself. He also realized that she would never be able to love him in that way. He easily could have asked to be reassigned. He said that he "plegged himself to her side." She might have asked him to leave, but he may not have. If she ordered him, he would more than likely obey. However, that would not change the fact that he was in love with her, but not her with him. That happens in the real world all the time. Some people can get on with it and other obssess. Sending him away would not have dimmed his feelings. He had to choose on his own to move on. Even when he does, when he's speaking to her during ranger training, he says he hopes he can become the type of man that she would be attacted to, even though she's in love with an married to another man. Plain and simple, he has an obessive nature. It did make him interesting.

THAT BITCH! :mad:

Let's kill her! Time for some good ol' fashioned mob violence! Who's with me!?!

Oh wait...i forgot...she's not a real person.

And before you say anything, I'm as much a B5 fan as anyone, but don't go so deeply into the interpersonal relationships. it's just entertainment for me, which is why i find these kinds of threads so funny and worthy of sarcasm.

Reading stuff into the inter-personal releationships is what makes B5 so fun. Delenn/Lennier is just the tip of the iceberg.

There's the sexual tension between Ivanova and Sheridan.
The love between Lando and Gkar.
We all know about Talia and Ivanova.
How about Delenn sleeping with her mentor, Dukhat.
etc. etc. etc.

D

Do I smell a troll?

It is looking that way, isn't it?

I thought he loved Han.

das

Do u mean me? Well then you'd be wrong. I love B5 (and many other sci-fi shows) but just feel that the way fans treat the characters and plots as real is stupid, and is the reason the sci-fi genre is mocked by many non-fans and derided by society in general. It's because of threads/discussions like this that most people think of sci-fi fans as geeks. And yes I do hate the obsessive fans for giving the rest of us a bad name. There is more to life than TV shows. In my opinion anyway.

Don't worry, I won't intrude on your obsessive little discussions anymore and I'll stick to threads that interest me from now on.

Goodbye.

Forgive me for interrupting your pouting in the corner. While I agree that the people who obsess about TV shows and cannot determine reality from fiction could do for a little time away from the TV, I don't see how any of that applies to our thread. This thread is for discussing various plot devices, acting, characterization, writing, etc for a TV show a bunch of us enjoy. Why you feel you need to hop on your high horse and insult us is beyond me. To call our discussions "obsessive" and "little" makes it apparent that geeks aren't the only ones who have trouble interacting with others.

Do I agree with Derrich's interpretation of the events? Nope. Do I think he has a radical and distorted view of Delenn's character? Yep. Does that makes his opinion less important? I'll let you figure that one out on your own, but regardless, the discussion is about the way JMS created the character and the way Mira Furlan presented it on screen.

I fail to see how a group of people can discuss a television show without talking about the characterization and plots. My apologies for giving "the rest of [you]" a bad name by watching a television show and then discussing what I liked and disliked about it with other people. I hope you understand that I will continue to engage in such behavior, both with the Sci-Fi genre and any other show I like or dislike. You are correct in one aspect ... there is more to life than TV shows (tho some would argue that TVLand is 34% better than real life) - but if TV doesn't help us see our lives in a different light, doesn't inform and educate us, doesn't entertain us, and consequently inspire intelligent conversation, there seems little point. As stated above, I will continue to discuss television programs I have watched, just as I will talk about a movie I've seen and enjoyed, a place I have visited, a person I have met, or a uniue thought I had while taking a dump in the morning. I call it human interaction. Some people don't go for it, but I kinda like it.

das

Don't forget that Delenn is personally responsible for the near genocide of 2 races (that we know of).

D

FurQ: Before your "wittle feewings" get damged beyond repair.. I was referring to Derrich.