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Starlink - Elon Musk's satellite internet service

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Starlink - Elon Musk's satellite internet service

Old 03-29-21, 10:26 AM
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Re: Starlink - Elon Musk's satellite internet service

Originally Posted by zyzzle View Post
Ohhh... the scary part is that you said bandwidth has to be allocated "for each user". Then, this gives them carte blanch to adjust, reduce, or cripple the speeds at their whim and fancy? In other words, bandwidth sculpting. It doesn't just depend on if your neighbors are all connected at the same time anymore, but now they can dynamically adjust your speed and / or latency as they see fit?

Gives them way too much power to abuse you by...
Yeah, this is already happening as it is. Especially with cell phone data.
Old 03-29-21, 07:05 PM
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Re: Starlink - Elon Musk's satellite internet service

Originally Posted by Jay G. View Post
I have no idea what you're talking about. They sell service with advertised speeds of 100 Mbps down. They're not deliberately crippling anyone's service. And do you think the wired broadband providers are not capable of allocating bandwidth on a per-user basis? How do you think speed tiers work?
Broadband providers can shape bandwidth, but usually they set the tier speeds very simply through the DOCSIS config file sent to the cable modem itself. That's not really the same thing as bandwidth sculpting. The sculpting is much, much more granular. As in, OK, it's 7:02 pm now, we're only going to give you 50 mbps. Now, it's 7:03, and we'll give you 65 mbps... At 2 am, we'll give you 100 mbps.

With broadband systems, typically the busiest times of day are automatically "sculpted" based on the number of users on the total network.. 25 or 50 neighbors all "pool" the same data pipe. And if all 50 are on, speeds are reduced ('sculpted') accordingly. If only 1 out of 50 is on at 3am, then that person can usually run flat out at their tier-level maximum (eg, 100 mbps, 300mbs, 1Gbps, etc), based on the DOCSIS 3.0 config file which is uploaded to the cable modem each night by the ISP.
Old 03-29-21, 08:36 PM
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Re: Starlink - Elon Musk's satellite internet service

Originally Posted by zyzzle View Post
Broadband providers can shape bandwidth, but usually they set the tier speeds very simply through the DOCSIS config file sent to the cable modem itself. That's not really the same thing as bandwidth sculpting. The sculpting is much, much more granular. As in, OK, it's 7:02 pm now, we're only going to give you 50 mbps. Now, it's 7:03, and we'll give you 65 mbps... At 2 am, we'll give you 100 mbps.
Yeah...that's not what Starlink is doing. What happens is that they have thousands of satellites flying around the globe, and in order to make sure they can supply 100 Mbps consistently to a particular geographical point, they have to assign time on various satellites as they fly overhead. Each satellite is only overhead for a limited time, if it ever is, and it uses a dozen or so "spot beams" to send/receive data. These are allocated to "cells," hexagonal regions about 9 miles wide. Theoretically, one could move the user terminal anywhere within that 9 mile wide cell and still have a connection with the satellites overhead, but it's simpler to just say they can't currently be moved at all.

I think you read too much into the wording Starlink used, and are extrapolating something that Starlink both isn't doing, and never said they're doing.
Old 03-30-21, 12:51 AM
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Re: Starlink - Elon Musk's satellite internet service

^ Thanks for the explanation, I see what you're saying in general but am still confused. The satellite system is clearly very different from any terrestrial broadband connection. But, if satellites are always moving (that's axiomatic) in the upper atmosphere, with the spin of the globe, how is the miracle of "guaranteeing" any constant speed even possible at all? What if the "cells" misalign and / or the satellites are blocked via clouds or trees or buildings? The connection would VANISH and it would not be reliable at all. Never mind any type of bandwidth limiting.

There seem to be just too many "maybes" and too much entropy / randomness with this satellite service. Until more time advances and some of the more serious bugs / user satisfaction surveys come back with flying colors, I'd be very cautious about this, barring the necessity of internet service in the remotest regions (North of 60 degrees latitude, the middle of the ocean, or in the Amazon jungle, etc).
Old 03-30-21, 03:01 PM
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Re: Starlink - Elon Musk's satellite internet service

Tin foil hat speed options to come later.
Old 03-30-21, 08:36 PM
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Re: Starlink - Elon Musk's satellite internet service

Originally Posted by zyzzle View Post
^ Thanks for the explanation, I see what you're saying in general but am still confused. The satellite system is clearly very different from any terrestrial broadband connection. But, if satellites are always moving (that's axiomatic) in the upper atmosphere, with the spin of the globe, how is the miracle of "guaranteeing" any constant speed even possible at all? What if the "cells" misalign and / or the satellites are blocked via clouds or trees or buildings?
The orbits are both predictable and correctable. As for clouds, these satellites are flying MUCH closer to Earth than most any other satellite, so blockage of a weak signal by a cloud isn't as likely. They won't stay in orbit for long, only a few years, and the area they cover is smaller, but the satellites themselves are small and (relatively) cheap, hence the plan to have tens of thousands of them in orbit at any time.

Trees are an issue at initial setup in this beta period, as some setups need a fairly extreme angle to point to where the satellites will be contacting the user terminal from. However, the user terminals don't turn to follow the satellites; they have an array of antennas that can cast a wide path, but the terminal is always pointed at a fixed part of the sky; the satellites come in and out of view. Also, the angle the terminals have to point at will gradually become little more than "straight up" as more satellites get deployed.

There's already a Reddit Starlink subreddit with a lot of customer experiences. The overall impression seems to be overwhelmingly positive:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Starlink/
Old 03-30-21, 11:38 PM
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Re: Starlink - Elon Musk's satellite internet service

Thanks again for taking the time to explain.

Looking forward to seeing how this pans out... I don't yet know if it will completely supplant terrestrial-based broadband connections, but I'll be following it closely during the next decade (?). It seems land-based connections will always be more reliable, almost by design, since they're stationary, kind of like wired internet connections are always preferred to wireless connections, all other things being equal.
Old 03-31-21, 06:41 AM
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Re: Starlink - Elon Musk's satellite internet service

Originally Posted by zyzzle View Post
Looking forward to seeing how this pans out... I don't yet know if it will completely supplant terrestrial-based broadband connections,..
It's not supposed to. Even at its maximum deployment, it wouldn't be able to provide coverage to everyone in high density areas like cities. The main advantage the service has is it's global coverage; you'll eventually be able to get a connection anywhere in the world, excepting maybe local restrictions (not licensed in a particular county, etc. ). This is going to be a huge advantage to rural areas like farms, many of which are stuck on slow DSL, or worse, dial-up. Once its mobile service is up, it'll be able to provide service to vehicles like planes and ships in the middle of the ocean,

But fiber is always going to be faster, if you live someone you can get it, and for mobile service, more traditional cell data plans are likely going to be a combination of faster/cheaper to Starlink's service.
Old 04-03-21, 06:14 PM
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Re: Starlink - Elon Musk's satellite internet service

Originally Posted by zyzzle View Post
... and a spotty connection at best. Not worth it unless you're WAY, way out in the boonies and have a lot of open space around you.

All other users Need Not Apply.
Few YouTube that tested found it to work well. And their no where near done adding satellites
Old 04-03-21, 06:16 PM
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Re: Starlink - Elon Musk's satellite internet service

Originally Posted by WCChiCubsFan View Post
Have they resolved the latency issues with satellite internet? I remember using HughesNet at a friends house about 15 years ago and it was unusable for VPNing into work and for gaming.
Yes. Solved by much lower orbit than standard satellites.

Not saying good enough for high speed gaming....but....
Old 04-03-21, 06:21 PM
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Re: Starlink - Elon Musk's satellite internet service

Originally Posted by zyzzle View Post
Thanks again for taking the time to explain.

Looking forward to seeing how this pans out... I don't yet know if it will completely supplant terrestrial-based broadband connections, but I'll be following it closely during the next decade (?). It seems land-based connections will always be more reliable, almost by design, since they're stationary, kind of like wired internet connections are always preferred to wireless connections, all other things being equal.
Can I just ask if Musk stole your lunch money in the 4th grade or something? No matter what you come out swinging against anything with his name WITHOUT knowing the facts of what your saying.

There are certainly reasons to criticize this system. Several good reasons. But clearly you donít know enough about it to realize what they are. Because none of what you posted is a reason.
Old 04-03-21, 06:23 PM
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Re: Starlink - Elon Musk's satellite internet service

Originally Posted by Jay G. View Post
It's not supposed to. Even at its maximum deployment, it wouldn't be able to provide coverage to everyone in high density areas like cities. The main advantage the service has is it's global coverage; you'll eventually be able to get a connection anywhere in the world, excepting maybe local restrictions (not licensed in a particular county, etc. ). This is going to be a huge advantage to rural areas like farms, many of which are stuck on slow DSL, or worse, dial-up. Once its mobile service is up, it'll be able to provide service to vehicles like planes and ships in the middle of the ocean,

But fiber is always going to be faster, if you live someone you can get it, and for mobile service, more traditional cell data plans are likely going to be a combination of faster/cheaper to Starlink's service.
Yes, this is an absolutely fascinating project. And a mega project to be sure.
Old 04-07-21, 01:12 PM
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Re: Starlink - Elon Musk's satellite internet service

Another launch earlier today
Old 04-12-21, 06:12 AM
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Re: Starlink - Elon Musk's satellite internet service

Originally Posted by Jay G. View Post
But fiber is always going to be faster, if you live someone you can get it, and for mobile service, more traditional cell data plans are likely going to be a combination of faster/cheaper to Starlink's service.
If only fiber was available somewhere in a big city, like ... Manhattan's Upper West Side. Unfortunately, it isn't. On our block we have one choice - Spectrum (formerly known as Time Warner Cable) which uses the exact same, never replaced coax (cable TV) cable that was already there in our apartment when I moved in 1993 (thus was likely installed many years before that).
The result: lower speed than StarLink on the Upload side and a HIGHER monthly price -- well, Spectrum is a pure monopoly in our building so why not milk us for all we've got. Can't live without decent Internet in the work from home Zoom era... And probably more outages than you would get from StarLink...
Here I blame Google who gave up on their fiber Internet service and Silicon Valley as whole for not doing a joint nationwide fiber network after Google gave up.
And I hate to say it, but the existing fiber, namely Verizon FIOS isn't any better: my mom has it in the burbs and it slows down to an absolute crawl on weekdays when all her neighbors are busy with their Internet connections as well. I can barely display a webpage...
Old 04-12-21, 06:47 AM
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Re: Starlink - Elon Musk's satellite internet service

Originally Posted by Ted Todorov View Post
If only fiber was available somewhere in a big city, like ... Manhattan's Upper West Side. Unfortunately, it isn't. On our block we have one choice - Spectrum.. and I hate to say it, but the existing fiber, namely Verizon FIOS isn't any better: my mom has it in the burbs and it slows down to an absolute crawl on weekdays when all her neighbors are busy with their Internet connections as well. I can barely display a webpage...
I have Verizon FiOS at my address in Manhattan, and have had it for nearly 10 years, with no congestion issues on weekdays.

FiOS, per their franchise agreement with NYC, is supposed to be available to every NYC address. Unfortunately, due to a mix of certain building owners not letting them in and Verizon being lazy and not forcing the issue, and also trying to dodge supporting less profitable locations or ones that will be expensive to upgrade, that's not actually the case.

You can attempt filing a complaint with the city, that can get the ball rolling:
https://www.dslreports.com/forum/r31...unavailability
Old 04-12-21, 06:55 AM
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Re: Starlink - Elon Musk's satellite internet service

Originally Posted by Jay G. View Post
I have Verizon FiOS at my address in Manhattan, and have had it for nearly 10 years, with no congestion issues on weekdays.

FiOS, per their franchise agreement with NYC, is supposed to be available to every NYC address. Unfortunately, due to a mix of certain building owners not letting them in and Verizon being lazy and not forcing the issue, and also trying to dodge supporting less profitable locations or ones that will be expensive to upgrade, that's not actually the case.

You can attempt filing a complaint with the city, that can get the ball rolling:
https://www.dslreports.com/forum/r31...unavailability
I have, and at any rate you absolutely can't blame a building owner -- our block is a bunch of different brownstones with no doubt many different owners, and I seriously doubt they are the ones keeping Verizon off the entire block.

Verizon just doesn't want to deal with it. We had Verizon DSL along with our landline, and finally dumped it when Verizon there was an outage that Verizon couldn't be bothered to fix for an entire week, and after we dumped it, we had to get the NY State AG office to intervene to stop Verizon from continuing billing us (indeed *double* billing us, for good measure).

Don't get me started, and don't blame anyone other than Verizon and what is at best a duopoly if not a pure monopoly for Internet service in most neighborhoods...
Old 04-12-21, 08:21 AM
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Re: Starlink - Elon Musk's satellite internet service

Originally Posted by Ted Todorov View Post
I have, and at any rate you absolutely can't blame a building owner -- our block is a bunch of different brownstones with no doubt many different owners, and I seriously doubt they are the ones keeping Verizon off the entire block.
That's why I listed a multitude of factors, but I know one person who can't get FiOS at their apartment because the building owner won't let Verizon in to install it. So it's definitely a possibility, but no the only one.

You mentioning multiple buildings reminds me that Verizon sometimes likes to run through neighboring buildings to hook up a particular building, which can make installs more difficult as they have to co-ordinate getting permission from building owners for granting access to run a connection that's not even for their building (although it'd make later connection easier).

The major incumbent ISPs definitely don't do all they can to fulfill their franchise agreements and such. I'm sorry the complaint you filed didn't fix anything, that's a failing of the city for not holding Verizon accountable as much as it is for Verizon not complying.
Old 04-13-21, 05:50 PM
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Re: Starlink - Elon Musk's satellite internet service

Originally Posted by Ted Todorov View Post
Spectrum is a pure monopoly in our building so why not milk us for all we've got. Can't live without decent Internet in the work from home Zoom era... And probably more outages than you would get from StarLink...
... in that case, you deal with your fellow neighbors directly for your internet needs. Fork it over to Spectrum by sharing the same "connection" with 10 people instead of sending Spectrum 10 fat checks each month for the same bandwidth. You should set up a neighborhood ISP Cooperative... You'd all benefit and reduce your bills collectively by 9/10th each month!!

Until Starlink gets proper internet into your area... Big City Manhattan!

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