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Old 06-26-12, 07:33 AM   #126
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Re: Microsoft Surface Tablet

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mordred View Post
Despite a lot of evidence to the contrary, I don't think Microsoft is stupid. I'm now wondering if they realize that the $599 model isn't really attractive at that price point, but they're selling one to fill the main market gap between the iPad and the full blown Surface. It makes sense that they might be afraid of getting killed in the press/public opinion for having something that looks like it competes with the iPad but at close to 2x the price. Having the Surface RT provides a clear differentiator between iPad and $999 Surface because they can say the RT does everything the iPad can do with a little extra for the same price... but the Surface does SO much more.
Two words, "Courier" and "Kin".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mordred View Post
It wouldn't be the first time a company has released a bare bones model of something just to provide a price point stepping stone. Unfortunately I can't remember the marketing term for that strategy.
I think that the word you're searching for is: stupid. These are incompatible devices that share the same name.
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Old 06-26-12, 08:22 AM   #127
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Re: Microsoft Surface Tablet

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Originally Posted by sracer View Post
Two words, "Courier" and "Kin".
Courier was a concept device, it was never planned for commercial release. Kin got killed due the transition to Windows Phone, making Kin a redheaded stepchild. It also was aimed at teens, but required a data plan, which many teens at the time didn't have. It also was a between phone in features: it had more capabilities than a basic phone, but wasn't advanced enough to be called a smartphone.

MS has misjudged the market in the past. However, it remains to be seen if Surface is one of those missteps. Even if Surface itself isn't a grand slam, if it inspires other vendors to create better Windows tablets, that's still a win for Microsoft.

Quote:
I think that the word you're searching for is: stupid. These are incompatible devices that share the same name.
Define "incompatible." All the apps that run on the Surface RT are going to be able to run on the Surface Pro. The Surface Pro will just be able to run conventional Windows programs as well.
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Old 06-26-12, 08:36 AM   #128
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Re: Microsoft Surface Tablet

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Originally Posted by Mordred View Post
It wouldn't be the first time a company has released a bare bones model of something just to provide a price point stepping stone. Unfortunately I can't remember the marketing term for that strategy.
Stupid?
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Old 06-26-12, 09:27 AM   #129
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Re: Microsoft Surface Tablet

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Originally Posted by Jay G. View Post
Even if Surface itself isn't a grand slam, if it inspires other vendors to create better Windows tablets, that's still a win for Microsoft.
I think you're right on the money, Jay G.
In the Windows world, no single device is a grand slam. Same with Android, really (maybe the GS3... time will tell).
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Old 06-26-12, 09:53 AM   #130
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Re: Microsoft Surface Tablet

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Originally Posted by SomethingMore View Post
I think you're right on the money, Jay G.
In the Windows world, no single device is a grand slam. Same with Android, really (maybe the GS3... time will tell).
I actually think the Droid Razr HD has a better shot at the title. The Droid Razr Maxx is an excellent phone, throw in faster processors and an HD screen without the ugly overlay of TouchWiz and I think they'll nuke the GS3. (MotoBlur on ICS is almost invisible, which I like.)

The Lumia 900 was king of Windows Phones, and the iPhone is the iPhone. In terms of computers, Mac is Mac and I agree there's no real "winner" when it comes to Windows-based PCs, they all seem to be lacking in 1 way or another (usually screens.)
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Old 06-26-12, 10:35 AM   #131
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Re: Microsoft Surface Tablet

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Originally Posted by SomethingMore View Post
I think you're right on the money, Jay G.
In the Windows world, no single device is a grand slam. Same with Android, really (maybe the GS3... time will tell).
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichC2 View Post
I actually think the Droid Razr HD has a better shot at the title. The Droid Razr Maxx is an excellent phone, throw in faster processors and an HD screen without the ugly overlay of TouchWiz and I think they'll nuke the GS3. (MotoBlur on ICS is almost invisible, which I like.)
Not sure what your criteria is for a grand slam, but as far as sales go, I don't think any other Android phone is close to the Galaxy S3.
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Old 06-26-12, 10:48 AM   #132
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Re: Microsoft Surface Tablet

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Originally Posted by fumanstan View Post
Not sure what your criteria is for a grand slam, but as far as sales go, I don't think any other Android phone is close to the Galaxy S3.
I was going in terms of actual hardware, I couldn't care less about sales when it comes to an actual "great" device, with that said I think the S2 was pretty close to the S3. I would like Samsung phones a whole lot more if they dumped TouchWiz and weren't quite so plasticy.
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Old 06-26-12, 11:03 AM   #133
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Re: Microsoft Surface Tablet

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Originally Posted by Jay G. View Post
Define "incompatible." All the apps that run on the Surface RT are going to be able to run on the Surface Pro.
As I understand it, that is both true and untrue (to a small degree). Managed code Metro apps should be able to run on both platforms without any changes, but native code apps will at least require recompilation to target the appropriate hardware. It should be a minor issue, but it will mean that there will need to be two versions of such apps in the Windows store. From what I've read, Microsoft is incorporating filters into the Windows store that will only show apps that can run on whatever device you are using to connect to it (Windows 8, Windows RT, WP8).


Also, suppose it would be possible for a developer to only target x86, if an app requires more CPU power than current ARM processors can provide.
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Old 06-26-12, 12:15 PM   #134
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Re: Microsoft Surface Tablet

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Originally Posted by Jay G. View Post
Courier was a concept device, it was never planned for commercial release.
Technically true. However, MS' intention was to cast FUD over the then-to-be-released iPad. It didn't work. But what it DID do is set a level of expectation for some hardcore gearheads. So when the the salient point of their Surface announcement is a smartkeyboard case, it is a huge step backward from the Courier-could-have-been.

Granted there aren't many who still remember the Courier, Origami, or the Kin. But there is a well-established track record of failure to deliver. Even when MS DOES deliver (as with the XBox360), it falls short of what they previously promised.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay G. View Post
Kin got killed due the transition to Windows Phone, making Kin a redheaded stepchild. It also was aimed at teens, but required a data plan, which many teens at the time didn't have. It also was a between phone in features: it had more capabilities than a basic phone, but wasn't advanced enough to be called a smartphone.

MS has misjudged the market in the past. However, it remains to be seen if Surface is one of those missteps.
That's a fine summary of WHY things happened, but you seem to easily dismiss that failure. The Surface's announcement was reminiscent in so many ways of Microsoft's past failures that nothing short of wishful thinking would lead someone to conclude that the outcome this time will be different.


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Even if Surface itself isn't a grand slam, if it inspires other vendors to create better Windows tablets, that's still a win for Microsoft.
I am unable to see how that scenario is a "win" for Microsoft.
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Old 06-26-12, 01:28 PM   #135
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Re: Microsoft Surface Tablet

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Originally Posted by sracer View Post
Technically true. However, MS' intention was to cast FUD over the then-to-be-released iPad.
That's speculation. MS never announced the Courier project, or even officially confirmed it existing:
http://blogs.technet.com/b/microsoft...r-project.aspx

If people were disappointed over the "cancellation" of Courier, they were disappointed over rumors, much as people often are disappointed at each new iPad not delivering on all the rumors that precede it.

Quote:
Granted there aren't many who still remember the Courier, Origami, or the Kin...
Project Origami was the UMPC spec, which was released and had devices made to the spec. MS "delivered" as much as they said they would in regards to it, but didn't see that people would rather have a touch interface (UMPCs often still relied on a stylus) and would take reduced functionality in exchange for portability and battery life.

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Originally Posted by sracer View Post
Even when MS DOES deliver (as with the XBox360), it falls short of what they previously promised.
What did MS promise with the Xbox 360 that they didn't deliver on?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sracer View Post
That's a fine summary of WHY things happened, but you seem to easily dismiss that failure. The Surface's announcement was reminiscent in so many ways of Microsoft's past failures...
In what way is it reminiscent? Which past failures?

It's important to look at why a past product failed and what has changed. For example, one could easily say that the iPhone/iPad announcements were "reminiscent" of Apple's Newton, but obviously their similarities didn't cause the iPhone and iPad to be the failures Newton was.

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Originally Posted by sracer View Post
I am unable to see how that scenario is a "win" for Microsoft.
MS makes the bulk of its money licensing out its OS to other manufacturers. In fact, in regards to Windows, until the Surface they made all of their money in selling it for use on other hardware.

If Surface can serve as a flagship device that gets others interested in the OS and make competing products using Windows, MS gets a cut of those product sales. Google's Nexus One phone was a flop, but Google won because Android devices became more advanced in response to it. If Surface is able to make Windows a serious player in the tablet market, that's a success for MS even if their own specific device flops.
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Old 06-26-12, 04:09 PM   #136
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Re: Microsoft Surface Tablet

I still don't get the appeal of running, on a tablet, apps designed for Windows on a desktop. The lack of the mouse alone makes it a very different experience, and touching the screen isn't really a good substitute. Are all the app makers going to design two interfaces?

I bought a bluetooth keyboard to try out with my ipad to see if it really enhanced the experience, and it really doesn't. In fact, other than writing longer pieces of text when a laptop/desktop machine isn't available, I can't see why you'd ever use a keyboard with a tablet. Microsoft will probably have a few more tablet-specific keys on their keyboard, hopefully including a way to switch between running apps with a button press, but it still seems cumbersome. Anyone have an ipad and an attached keyboard/case that can give me some pointers on how it's useful?
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Old 06-26-12, 04:24 PM   #137
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Re: Microsoft Surface Tablet

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Originally Posted by fujishig View Post
I still don't get the appeal of running, on a tablet, apps designed for Windows on a desktop. The lack of the mouse alone makes it a very different experience, and touching the screen isn't really a good substitute. Are all the app makers going to design two interfaces?
No, most app makers are not going to design two interfaces. The Surface RT will not run any desktop Windows apps, and won't have the desktop at all. It will only run apps designed for Metro, which is a touch-centric interface. Metro apps should be able to run on Windows Phone 8, Windows RT, and Windows 8, so developers can make one app with one interface and it will run on all devices, including desktop and laptop PCs.

The Surface Pro runs Windows 8 and will primarily be for tablet use with the Metro interface, but it does allow for running desktop apps. The keyboard covers, with built-in trackpad, and kickstand are designed to make it easy to use as a laptop, if need be. It's designed for those who like the convenience of a tablet, but also occasionally need the power/compatibility/usability of a laptop, and don't want to carry around two devices.
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Old 06-26-12, 05:33 PM   #138
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Re: Microsoft Surface Tablet

I wonder if Microsoft is going to release Office for the iPad before they release the Surface.

The iPad can be a productivity tool, but if you have Office there, you can basically do anything. Yes, Office is that important.

I'm sure the Surface team is pulling really hard to not allow the Office team to release the iPad version anytime soon.
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Old 06-26-12, 05:55 PM   #139
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Re: Microsoft Surface Tablet

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Originally Posted by Jay G. View Post
No, most app makers are not going to design two interfaces. The Surface RT will not run any desktop Windows apps, and won't have the desktop at all. It will only run apps designed for Metro, which is a touch-centric interface. Metro apps should be able to run on Windows Phone 8, Windows RT, and Windows 8, so developers can make one app with one interface and it will run on all devices, including desktop and laptop PCs.

The Surface Pro runs Windows 8 and will primarily be for tablet use with the Metro interface, but it does allow for running desktop apps. The keyboard covers, with built-in trackpad, and kickstand are designed to make it easy to use as a laptop, if need be. It's designed for those who like the convenience of a tablet, but also occasionally need the power/compatibility/usability of a laptop, and don't want to carry around two devices.
Ah, there it is, I forgot it had a trackpad.
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Old 06-26-12, 06:55 PM   #140
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Re: Microsoft Surface Tablet

Yeah, they do have a trackpad, but it looks relatively small, even compared to the typical trackpad on Windows Ultrabooks or the Macbook Air.

But on the plus side, the Pro does have full mouse support.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay G. View Post
The Surface RT will not run any desktop Windows apps, and won't have the desktop at all. It will only run apps designed for Metro, which is a touch-centric interface.
The Surface RT will have a limited desktop mode. There won't be any third party desktop apps allowed on it, but MS Office and IE 10 will both be supported (and bundled, as far as I know).
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Old 06-26-12, 07:27 PM   #141
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Re: Microsoft Surface Tablet

I think the keyboard smartcover is an option. iPad smartcovers are petty expensive and they don't even have a keyboard. I still think this tablet should not be desktop compatible. Tablets are just not used for the same use as a PC.
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Old 06-26-12, 07:36 PM   #142
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Re: Microsoft Surface Tablet

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Originally Posted by edstein View Post
I think the keyboard smartcover is an option. iPad smartcovers are petty expensive and they don't even have a keyboard.
It's unknown whether or not a keyboard cover will be included with one of the Surface tablets. However, I wouldn't use iPad Smart Covers as a point of comparison. Apple's marking those up by a huge amount.

Quote:
I still think this tablet should not be desktop compatible. Tablets are just not used for the same use as a PC.
Again, there's two tablets, only one of which, the more expensive one, will be desktop compatible. If it's true that nobody wants a desktop experience or app on a tablet, then nearly everyone will simply buy the cheaper tablet.

MS is betting that the Surface Pro is going to fill a niche that is currently not being served. They may be successful or not in that endeavor, but they're apparently going to try.
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Old 06-26-12, 09:58 PM   #143
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Re: Microsoft Surface Tablet

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Originally Posted by edstein View Post
I think the keyboard smartcover is an option. iPad smartcovers are petty expensive and they don't even have a keyboard. I still think this tablet should not be desktop compatible.
While the official Apple-branded iPad covers are up their in price ($39/$49/$69), there's a lot of great alternatives from third party manufacturers. I rock the Speck CandyShell Wrap on my iPad and I scored it on the cheap from Amazon. I have friends that rock other cases on their devices such as the STM Skinny.

Quote:
Originally Posted by edstein
Tablets are just not used for the same use as a PC.
While I wholeheartedly agree with you, there's others on here who don't.

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Originally Posted by Raul3 View Post
I wonder if Microsoft is going to release Office for the iPad before they release the Surface. The iPad can be a productivity tool, but if you have Office there, you can basically do anything. Yes, Office is that important.
The rumor was Microsoft was going to be launching Microsoft Office for the iPad towards the end of the year. Now with Microsoft's "announcement" of the Surface, who knows if that'll be put on hold. They should release it as the iPad has a customer base of over 50 million users and we'd all agree Microsoft Office would be a killer app for the iOS. However, Microsoft usually chooses the wrong decisions to make.

Thankfully, Apple has had the iWork suite available for the iPad since day one of the iPad's release. While it's not as feature rich as the Mac equivalent, the apps are able to open/edit/save Word, Excel and PowerPoint file formats for those who need the capability and does the job far better than other apps out there like Quickoffice Pro. While I've encountered incompatiablity between Excel and Numbers when it comes to specific formulas and macros, Pages and Keynote do blow away Word and PowerPoint.

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Originally Posted by RichC2 View Post
Mac is Mac and I agree there's no real "winner" when it comes to Windows-based PCs, they all seem to be lacking in 1 way or another (usually screens.)
The real winner of Windows-based PCs are ones that are custom-built, or if you're willing to spend the extra money for less work, purchased from online retailers like Cyberpower, iBUYPOWER and others. If you have the knowledge, resource and tools, it's easier to build/upgrade a PC to the specifications you want rather than buying a pre-built machine from say Dell, HP or others. It's also far cheaper if you do it yourself.
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Old 06-27-12, 01:55 AM   #144
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Re: Microsoft Surface Tablet

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Originally Posted by edstein View Post
Tablets are just not used for the same use as a PC.
While there are many tasks and activities that can only be accomplished on a (desktop/laptop) PC, there are also very, very many that can be accomplished equally well on a tablet, and there are some that are impossible on a PC that are perfect on a tablet.

So, I guess I don't see your point.
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Old 06-27-12, 03:17 AM   #145
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Re: Microsoft Surface Tablet

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While there are many tasks and activities that can only be accomplished on a (desktop/laptop) PC, there are also very, very many that can be accomplished equally well on a tablet, and there are some that are impossible on a PC that are perfect on a tablet.

So, I guess I don't see your point.
Yea, I agree tablets are not a PC. But I don't agree they can't be used for the same uses. And I don't believe it to be an insult to say they are not a PC.

A tablet (well done one anyway), can do what most people use a PC for. And in some cases do them better than a PC. Can they do everything a PC does. No. But most PC's are not good for all things either, so to me that is not a valid put down of a tablet. As an extreme example, a netbook is a PC. But you wouldn't buy one to do high end gaming or high end video or photo editing. But it doesn't make a netbook less of a PC. It was just optimized for something else.

And there are things a tablet can do better than a PC. So now it is up to the consumer for what works for them.
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Old 06-27-12, 07:42 AM   #146
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Re: Microsoft Surface Tablet

No disk drive = No sale.
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Old 06-27-12, 07:56 AM   #147
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Re: Microsoft Surface Tablet

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Originally Posted by Matthew Chmiel View Post
The real winner of Windows-based PCs are ones that are custom-built, or if you're willing to spend the extra money for less work, purchased from online retailers like Cyberpower, iBUYPOWER and others. If you have the knowledge, resource and tools, it's easier to build/upgrade a PC to the specifications you want rather than buying a pre-built machine from say Dell, HP or others. It's also far cheaper if you do it yourself.
Yeah, I build a new desktop every few years. I meant more along the lines of laptops, but I'm not very clear when I type about things.
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Old 06-27-12, 08:09 AM   #148
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Re: Microsoft Surface Tablet

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No disk drive = No sale.
optical drive, or floppy?
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Old 06-27-12, 11:50 AM   #149
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Re: Microsoft Surface Tablet

Google I/O 2012 conference started today.
Out the door, Google announces the Nexus 7 by Asus tablet.
Google provides detailed specifications about the product.
Google even mentions the device's battery life.
Google states the price points for 8GB/16GB models ($199/$249).
Google shipping within two-to-three weeks.

... and that's why Microsoft's presentation was shit. They can't even do a keynote presentation right.

Quote:
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Yeah, I build a new desktop every few years. I meant more along the lines of laptops, but I'm not very clear when I type about things.
Vizio's new line of computers might be the first Windows-based manufactuer focused on specifically design and performance. There was a great article on The Verge a few weeks ago about them.
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Old 06-27-12, 12:28 PM   #150
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Re: Microsoft Surface Tablet

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Google I/O 2012 conference started today.
Out the door, Google announces the Nexus 7 by Asus tablet....
Not quite. Some videos and product pages went live a little too soon, and were quickly made private, of course too late.
http://www.gadgetbox.msnbc.msn.com/t...d-movie-848760

They announced it officially about 45 minutes into the keynote.
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