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is the APPLE MAC Dead ? is not why not !

Old 01-14-01, 04:26 AM
  #1  
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we used to have them at our work 6 years ago. Now it's been PC all the way .

do people still use Apple Macs ?

i believe CAD/CAM and design/print people still use them ?
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Old 01-14-01, 10:00 AM
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The Mac people are kinda like a cult. Most won't give up their icon unless they are forced to undergo deprogramming.

Design, video, news layout/print shops, and education still have people clinging to their Macs.

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Old 01-14-01, 10:09 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Dead:
The Mac people are kinda like a cult. Most won't give up their icon unless they are forced to undergo deprogramming.

Design, video, news layout/print shops, and education still have people clinging to their Macs.





LOL isn't that the truth. Dead I was a MAC person once upon a time, I hate to admit it. But I came to my senses

MAC died the day Bill Gates gave apple 150 million to bail them out

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Old 01-14-01, 12:48 PM
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Mac are going to be dead soon...

I mean I am studying at University to be a computer science engineer. In the past there were courses about Mac but now it is 100% PC. WindowsNT (Win2000), Linux and Unix are the way to go! Mac are far behind in technology and teachers at my University don't like them because the last time they went to their convention they kept talking about irrelevant stuff like what colors are selling well, what new colors they will introduce, what new case they will have...

Bottom line: the new computer science engineers won't know and care about Mac
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Old 01-14-01, 05:54 PM
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Our whole design department still use MAC's and they swear by them.

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Old 01-14-01, 06:14 PM
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I can't believe I'm even responding...

No, of course Macs aren't dead... Nor is Apple dying. They have built in markets far beyond DTP. The film and entertainment industry, aerospace, science and medical research, education, etc. Like the new Hondas and Acuras? They were partly developed using proprietary software running on Apple hardware. Mars pathfinder and Indy cars? They utilize PowerPC processors, the most used embedded processor today. There is so much ignorance regarding Apple and PowerPC applications, it's really amazing. Apple and IBM and Motorola have brought to the consumer market single processor computers capable of over 5 GigaFlops of processing power...that is simply amazing, a real milestone in personal computer evolution, no matter what your platform preference is. Not to mention multi-processor machines (for more than ten years).

Is Windows dead? Will it be soon? Surprisingly, that's far more likely than the demise of Apple. Look at what MS is doing, how they are diversifying their interests. Hmm. They aren't blind. There is a widespread and legitimate migration to Linux distributions.

Two applicable quotes from last week:

Washington Post:
"Apple's the company that's been failing for a hundred years. Everyone says it's made all these false moves, but it's also the company that defines the bloody computer industry."

From Upside.com - Microsoft's Ballmer: Linux now a threat
"Consider it a graduation of sorts. Monday Microsoft (MSFT) president Steve Ballmer officially rated Linux 'threat No. 1' among competitors trying to chip away at Microsoft Windows' market share."

That's funny, because Linux isn't a competitor trying to chip away at MS. Linux is a freely distributed OS, and a movement that has severely encroached into MS's long-standing markets. That suggest, as many things do, that MS doesn't have a clue. Of course, MS's avid development of software for OS X may indicate otherwise...

In a couple of months there will be two OSs available, which in most markets, make any Windows offering non-viable. Mac OS X, a true Unix descendent based upon FreeBSD fostered at Berkeley and countless Linux variations which are Unix derivatives.

If you have any interest in computers you should read about Mac OS X. If you hate Apple, for whatever illegitimate reason, you should read about this OS. It is the most advanced OS ever brought to the general market. It is indicative of the future of computing. That is simply a fact. If your a PC enthusiast you might prefer to read about it at Ars Technica.

Oh yeah, and Apple just brought DVD authoring to the consumer market. Not only were they the first to do this, this will likely have a substantial effect on the entertainment industry. Partnered with their very viable Final Cut Pro, with tools like DVD Studio Pro and Apple workstations, it bodes very well for independent filmmakers. Apple has brought so much to market that all Windows users benefit from everyday. Hell, if there was no original Mac OS, then there would be no Windows derivative of it.

You know how in good science fiction, everything in the future is smaller, more powerful, more efficient, and functional? I always think of Apple.

And how about the new TiPB? Even the harshest Apple critics are reporting that it is the most remarkably designed, most powerful and capable, portable computing device ever brought to market. They are even harping on it's value. And it's beautiful. Titanium shell, carbon fiber frame, 15.2 inch widescreen display, G4 processor... http://www.apple.com/powerbook

Be objective and informed. A knowledgeable opinion is valid.


Submitted respectfully, of course.

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[This message has been edited by reverb (edited January 14, 2001).]
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Old 01-14-01, 06:38 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by reverb:
I can't believe I'm even responding...

No, of course Macs aren't dead... Nor is Apple dying. They have built in markets far beyond DTP. The film and entertainment industry, aerospace, science and medical research, education, etc. Like the new Hondas and Acuras? They were partly developed using proprietary software running on Apple hardware. Mars pathfinder and Indy cars? They utilize PowerPC processors, the most used embedded processor today. There is so much ignorance regarding Apple and PowerPC applications, it's really amazing. Apple and IBM and Motorola have brought to the consumer market single processor computers capable of over 5 GigaFlops of processing power...that is simply amazing, a real milestone in personal computer evolution, no matter what your platform preference is. Not to mention multi-processor machines (for more than ten years).

Is Windows dead? Will it be soon? Surprisingly, that's far more likely than the demise of Apple.



Interesting concept... now, who was it that pumped in big $$$ to keep Apple going not too long ago?

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Old 01-14-01, 07:22 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Dead:
Interesting concept... now, who was it that pumped in big $$$ to keep Apple going not too long ago?




As I noted above MS. Someone should follow their own advice, said respectfully of course
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Old 01-14-01, 07:49 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by 4KRG:
As I noted above MS. Someone should follow their own advice, said respectfully of course



What advice is that? I am very familiar with the MS investment in Apple. I wouldn't call what amounted to less than a 10 percent stake in the company a bail out. While it did have a bouying effect in the short term, what it did for MS should not be discounted. It allowed MS access to internet and multimedia technologies where they were lagging. The integration of some of this into the MS OSs allowed MS to better 'keep pace'. It also led to the bundling of Internet Explorer with Mac OS distributions. MS knew Apple wasn't going anywhere, and wanted to be involved. I'm sure they also viewed this alliance as a benefit regarding their competing with Netscape.

It should also be noted that at the exact same time, big time MS basher Larry Ellison, the CEO of Oracle, joined Apple's board of directors.

BTW, I do not use an Apple computer per se. I run Mac OS 9.1 on custom third party hardware utilizing an IBM G3 processor.




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Old 01-14-01, 09:05 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by reverb:

Hell, if there was no original Mac OS, then there would be no Windows derivative of it.




Hell, if there was no original Xerox Star, then there would be no MacOS derivative of it.
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Old 01-14-01, 10:19 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Real Boba Fett:
Hell, if there was no original Xerox Star, then there would be no MacOS derivative of it.



That's a topic...

Many claim that Apple ripped off the GUI from Xerox PARC, more specifically from either the Alto or Star projects. But, it seems to be far more myth than fact. Apple had hired folks from Xerox before the above projects manifested, including Jef Raskin and Bruce Horn, who had been working on these concepts before even being hired by Xerox. Apple was working on icon based GUIs before Raskin got Jobs to to visit PARC to see the prototype Smalltalk system. Job's couldn't have seen Alto or Star because they were developed much later. That's not to say Job's wasn't effected or futher inspired by what he did see, apparently he was. That was the point. He was very interested in the Xerox developments...

That's why he made a deal with Xerox. He gave millions in Apple stock to Xerox for the ability to bring his programmers there, to further motivate them. These are programmers who were already working on the Lisa project at Apple. Thus, nothing could have been stolen anyway, since Xerox was even compensated for the visits.

Anyway, PARC was a research center, not a commercial product development center. Xerox was not a competitor to Apple, and as I noted, they even entered into a partnership. However, later Xerox did make a claim against Apple regarding research value, but it didn't hold up in court.

In the end it appears, mostly from documents and first hand acounts, that little if anything was taken from Xerox and that the Mac GUI was developed by Apple for Apple. Of course the concepts are similar, how could they not be. Icons and menus et al were not new at that time. Like others in the valley, Apple and Xerox were working on simplifying the user experience via these UI's. Those who have seen these UI's always note that they are very different.

So, the Mac operating system can't be a derivative of simple interface elements

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[This message has been edited by reverb (edited January 14, 2001).]
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Old 01-16-01, 06:36 PM
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Im always surprised when PC 'people' talk about how macs suck and they should go out of business. I would never buy a PC but i dont hate people that use them (just feel sorry). I love to laugh when their system crashes or they have to deal with DLLs.

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Old 01-16-01, 06:55 PM
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That is a long hard topic. Anyone coming from a technical standpoint has no respect for MAC and therefore has no respect for anyone that chooses to use one. PCs are clearly technically superior in this day and age and it is assumed that anyone that who chooses MAC is just uninformed or not bright enough to operate a PC.

This is where the fear of DLL's come into play, if you know what you are doing it is not a big deal and nothing to fear.

Here is a vast sweeping generality from a person that use to be very pro mac (me in 1988) people who like and use Macs annoy the hell out of me. Their brain patterns are not normal.

MAC = NON computer person/non technical person =

My hate of MAC users stems from my real world experience having to support them. I worked for a company that gave every employee a choice of what they wanted, the people that chose MACs were the stupidest (fact in my little world and I guess others have had similar experience).

ALSO PCs have a bum wrap. Too many people buy crappy hardware and expect it to work. There are many PCs in the world that NEVER work right, they were not built right or designed right (but Windows takes the heat for the failure). If you buy quality hardware and run mainstream software you will have less trouble with a PC over time than you will with a MAC (again a fact in my little world).

None of this was meant to offend, just an explanation from an X mac user.

I also want to add that Windows PCs do have problems, but then again, so does EVERY computer and operating system ever made. Please do not think I am BIASED towards PCs for no reason. I am sure I have more experience with BOTH than anyone on this board, although my MAC experience is a bit dated.
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Old 01-16-01, 07:52 PM
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Regarding 4KRG comments:

I hope he's joking, because there's zero validity to his comments. They are, quite simply, ludicrous.

And generalizing about users is ignorant, and sad. Based on your post, I do not for a second believe that you have more experience than most people on this board.

You hate Mac users? Really? Better throw away all those DVDs, and most of your Cds. Seriously.

I definitely don't hate Windows users, Linux users, Mac users, Unix users, Solaris users, et al... There are great minds working with all of them. I have a little more respect for Mac and Linux users though.

I wish Chuck Bucket would chime in (no, he's not a Mac user). He might offer a valid counterpoint to my comments.

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[This message has been edited by reverb (edited January 16, 2001).]
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Old 01-16-01, 09:33 PM
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I have to agreem that if you know what your doing, handling things like DLL's and IRQ interupts and drivers and such is not hard. For the typical computer hobbiest Wintel based hardware is fun, something to do on the weekends.

But when it comes down to work, getting work done, using your computer without needless reinstalls, driver installations, updates, virus' worries an Apple based machines will get more work done.

It's two different worlds, for someone who is techincally minded and into the latest gaming video cards, fastest processors (outside of the G4) and enjoys tweeking and such, then a Wintel box is great. But for most people who just want to be able to buy a computer, plug it in and use it for several years without worries about some new program conflicting with an older one, then a Mac is a clear choice. There is nothing easier than buying an iMac, plugging it into the wall, plugging in your cable or DSL modem and turning it on.
With in minutes
your surfing, writing letters, e-mail, home finances and all the basic computer functions that people want to do.
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Old 01-16-01, 09:37 PM
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reverb - you make me




Mr645 - you have sucessfully stated every myth about apple and wintel, goodjob.
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Old 01-16-01, 10:07 PM
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Pretty funny topic, considering the type of forum this is. A lot of video post-production and audio recording for all types of multimedia gets done on Macs. The majority of end users may use WinTel but the vast majority of computer-based creative work you see was done on a Mac.

I work in educational publishing - tech support and hands-on DTP work. All production is done on Macs. Some administrative work is done on Windows computers. I support both platforms - I get calls from the VP during her travels and run down problems with her IBM ThinkPad and I also get calls from the Lead Designer when she has problems with her Apple PowerBook. Each platform has pros and cons. It just so happens that for what I do the Mac is the better tool for the job.

In terms of ease of use and configuration the Mac wins hands-down. When a WinTel computer is working properly all is good. It's when things go wrong that you see the difference.

One of the major advantages of the Mac is the tight integration of hardware and software. One company makes the things and specifies requirements to the OEM so plug-and play really works. Windows is hobbled by the sheer number of different device manufacturers and drivers that must be supported. There is no such thing as an IRQ conflict on a Mac.

On the Wintel side of the equation you also have the problem of every company doing its own thing. A VP at Intel described Intel's attempts to get PC manufacturers to agree on anything as "like trying to herd cats". USB, which was INVENTED by Intel, was a niche peripheral interface until Apple went with it as a standard peripheral interface connection across their entire product line. It's pretty easy to find a PC or peripheral with a USB connector now, isn't it? Intel credits Apple for this.

On the creative side of things, did you know that 95% of the print advertisements you read are composed on a Mac? Why would this be? One of the major reasons is color management. Ever scan a picture and find that the output from your printer turned that nice shade of blue a vivid purple? Not knowing what the output will look like is DEATH in the advertising industry. ColorSync, Apple's system-level color management system, enables people to be sure that what they see on the screen is what it's gonna look like in the magazine.

More than 90% of the magazines and newspapers you have read in the past 10 years have been produced on a Mac - that includes Time, Wired, TV Guide, The NY and LA Times, and more than likely your local community newspaper.

Like Nine Inch Nails? Their latest album was recorded on a Mac-based ProTools system. The film American Beauty? Ditto. See that obscure Hollywood blockbuster movie The Matrix? Yeah, the sound for that was done on a Mac ProTools system too....

If all you want to do is play games, surf the web, do a bit of word processing/spreadsheet stuff, balance your checkbook, etc., save the bit of extra money a Mac would cost you and buy a WinTel computer. If you do anything creative, a Mac will make you more productive.

Personally I'm looking forward to playing with the DVD-R and DVD authoring software that's included on the new high-end PowerMac G4s. Seeing as they also have built-in FireWire and come bundled with digital video editing software, I'll have a reasonably-priced (considering what you get for the $$$), really cool-looking complete multimedia editing workstation. Watching other people's projects on DVD is OK, but how cool will it be to actually be able to make your own and watch 'em in a home DVD player?
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Old 01-16-01, 10:11 PM
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Really funny how these new members keep popping up to defend the mac

X - are you having fun
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Old 01-16-01, 10:29 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by 4KRG:
Really funny how these new members keep popping up to defend the mac



I was just laughing at that too

Well, being an involved and 'highly technical' (as opposed to your perceptions) computer user (independent of OS), and a member of far more technical forums, someone may have gotten wind of DVD Talk forums. But, that's prob a good thing for this forum. The more users, and input, the better.

I do hope that no Mac people bash PC users, and vice versa. But you have set a bad precedent.

Incidentally, it appears from other posts that you are a Linux user. If so, I'm very surprised. I am usually impressed by Linux users' objectiveness and savvy.

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[This message has been edited by reverb (edited January 16, 2001).]
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Old 01-16-01, 10:45 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by reverb:
I do hope that no Mac people bash PC users, and vice versa. But you have set a bad precedent.



Just being honest, would you rather I set a good precident and lie

MY PERSONAL EXPERINCE (large generalization here) is that I do not get along with MAC people IRL. Do not ask me why, I do not know and it has nothing to do with the computer it has to do with the person and the personality. Of course this is not 100% true, it is a general comment, but I bet I can pick a MAC user out of a crowd.

When I was getting started in my computer career I worked for a 30,000 person company that was all MAC based. We even used Quickmail (by CE software) as our standard email system. Trust me, I have had plenty of MAC background and have no respect for it whatsoever. It's my opinion and you are allowed yours.

I will give MAC an ever so slight 'leg up' in the graphics design world. 1 out of how ever many categries are out there is pretty piss poor if you ask me. I will say that any MAC graphics users that gave the "right" wintel machine a try gladly gave up their MACs and moved to the PC world. I worked with about 100 or so that had both in their office for months (our last 'holdouts' during the PC conversion of the company) and gave back the MACs without hesitation ONCE THEY TRIED THE PC (the hesitation was in trying because of the fear of windows). Do you have any idea how much a conversion like that costs a company???? Believe they did it with good reason.

Apple is a bit of a cult and people who love them blindly follow and refuse to look at anything else (I know I use to be one) something in me snapped and I broke out of the MAC mindset, no looking back now.

At this point this conversation is pointless, I have been down this road thousands of times....



[This message has been edited by 4KRG (edited January 16, 2001).]
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Old 01-16-01, 11:36 PM
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I often hear from Mac-bashing PC users that they are somehow qualified in their criticisms because they used to use macs or supported them in the past. Inevitably, this Mac experience is more than a few years ago and is about as valid and relevant as a Mac user saying Windows sucks because of his experience with Windows 3.1.

4KRG, when was the last time you used a Mac for any length of time? Which Mac OS version?

Most Mac fans have to endure using a PC at work, while most PC fans do not use a Mac at work. So which group would tend to be more ignorant of the opposing camp? Hint: not the Mac fans.

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Old 01-17-01, 12:19 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by 4KRG:
At this point this conversation is pointless, I have been down this road thousands of times....



I bet you have. I would suspect, due to the way you express your 'opinion' and your biases, most people on the other end of any resemblance of a computer conversation with you feels that way.

Anyway, per your own comments, any Mac experience you have is clearly very out-of-date and not applicable to the current OS market.

I'm sorry, but your sentiments can't be taken seriously at all. You can spot a 'Mac person', you don't get along with 'Mac people'... That sounds like problems with you, not computer platforms. What you have expressed, literally, is that you hate scientists, engineers, writers, filmmakers, musicians, graphic artists, teachers, programmers, and about the 7% of the entire computer user market, about the same as Linux, that uses the Mac OS. That is absurd.

And on a purely technical and factual level, the little information you have put forth is flawed. There are countless facts to back up substantiated opinions, and what you have presented is wrong. I'm sorry, but that's the truth.

For example, your comments about Mac software usability reliant on Apple hardware control is somewhat misdirected. The Mac OS has long provided reliable and diverse connectivity with third party devices. That, among other reasons, is why it has long been so relevant in the music and video production, controlling countless sophisticated devices in critical environments. In a single user example, as I noted earlier, I do not use Apple hardware (except for a laser printer). My main workstation is running Mac OS 9.1 on a third party modified motherboard utilizing a G3 processor, sitting in a common ATX form factor case. None of my many drives and devices came from Apple, but most of them are recognized by native Mac OS drivers anyway. It's remarkable functionality. Besides reliability, connectivity, and user experience, often Apple hardware and Mac OS software were implemented into high-end installations because the Mac OS utilized professional industry standards for file formats (unlike Windows) and used standard high-performance interfaces like SCSI (never Parallel).

Hating people and inanimate objects, by brand association, doesn't qualify as computer savvy. You haven't expressed any understanding of the hardware and software that 'Mac users' utilize, except to say that you are an expert. That doesn't float. What does one OS, in your experience, do better or worse than another. Are you familiar with superscalar processor architecture as it's utilized in the IBM and Motorola G4 processors that the Mac OS runs on? And the benefits and weaknesses in those designs compared to an AMD Duron chip? Are you aware of the relevancy of 72DPI desktop environments or the upcoming PDF desktop graphics in OS X? Do you have an opinion on X Windows implementation in Mac OS X and Linux environments for command line system administration? Are you familiar with the differences in Unix lineage? Do you prefer the DOS shell known as Windows just because everyone else uses it? Which OSs are recommended for multiprocessing applications and why? These are relevant issues in reference to the original topic, not 'Mac users suck'.

I don't particularly mean to come down on you, but I'm not sure you are aware of how your comments are perceived. And I don't mean by Mac users.

BTW, I think you unknowingly admire countless Mac users.

In the end, it's not the car, it's the driver. It's not the tool, it's the result.


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[This message has been edited by reverb (edited January 16, 2001).]
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Old 01-17-01, 12:36 AM
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Reverb,

I'm glad I'm not on the other camp in this discussion, what with you to contend with.
Well done.

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Old 01-17-01, 12:47 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by jtm:
Reverb,

I'm glad I'm not on the other camp in this discussion, what with you to contend with.
Well done.

Tai



I just thought that some comments made here were inappropriate. And I don't care for disseminating misinformation. People should use whatever OS they want, but they will benefit from being well informed. I'm no Mac evangelist, but I have a passion for it, it impresses me.

I think I'll bow out now, and enjoy this beer. Won't tell you what kind of beer, in case someone doesn't like it or hates everyone who drinks it.


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Old 01-17-01, 01:00 AM
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Pardon my ignorance regarding MacOS, but it was my understanding that MacOS lacked preemptive multitasking as well as other features found in more modern operating systems; I'm not sure if MacOS version 9.x provides support for such features, but I am pretty sure that version 8.x and earlier lacked these features.

As a result, I found my experience on the Macs that I've used to be much more troublesome. It seems that they were more prone to crashing compared to doing the same tasks on the PC. Perhaps it's just my particular style of usage, and those who use their Macs for dedicated tasks encounter these systems instabilities less, but even the frustration brought about by Win95 and poor computer lab management could not compare to that of Macs users.

With all of the information regarding OS X, however, I (a PC loyalist) have become quite impressed if for no reason other than the Unix roots from which OS X was developed. At last, Macs will receive a competent mainstream OS to complement the competent PowerPC platform. Slashdotters (www.slashdot.com) are quite aware of the prevalence of the linuxppc distribution, and to their credit, I must admit that not all Mac users are technically incompetent.
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