![]() |
One time I gave my wife my CC to buy something from BB, and they wouldn't let her use it.
The Post Office is, or was, hardcore about checking as well, but that might have been because it was a debit card (I think). Recently, however, I haven't had them even look at the back. |
I used to have "check ID" on my card, and the local post office wouldn't accept it because it had no signature. This same post office accepts blank checks from my boss, and has never asked me for my ID when I use them.
|
Originally Posted by Mister Peepers
You have no idea what you're talking about. I had someone use my debit card to make an online purchase and I got my money back the same day.
Also, no legal protection? Huh? Yeah, only an idiot would spend within his means with a debit card instead of racking up debt and having to pay interest. You son, have been suckered into believing the whole "debit cards are better" PR campaign. Only a sucker would use a debit card when they could use a credit card for the exact same purchase, gain the benefit of guaranteed legal protections and free interest on the ~30 day float. |
Originally Posted by drmoze
You can "force" an ID check by *not* signing the credit card signature box, and instead writing "Check ID" there. Then again, there's no accounting for the abilities of any particular cashier, even with this.
From Page 29 of "Rules for Visa Merchants": Some customers write “See ID” or “Ask for ID” in the signature panel, thinking that this is a deterrent against fraud or forgery; that is, if their signature is not on the card, a fraudster will not be able to forge it. In reality, criminals don’t take the time to practice signatures: they use cards as quickly as possible after a theft and prior to the accounts being blocked. They are actually counting on you not to look at the back of the card and compare signatures—they may even have access to counterfeit identification with a signature in their own handwriting. “See ID” or “Ask for ID” is not a valid substitute for a signature. The customer must sign the card in your presence, as stated above. |
I don't know what Amazon is thinking. So far it seems that the CC companies have sided with us. So why would Amazon charge us, assuming they know that the CC companies would rule against this?
I think that Amazon will charge our cards, we fill file chargebacks, and that will be the end of it. Amazon will have gained a little back from people sending their stuff back and the people who might not notice the new charges. |
Originally Posted by Jah-Wren Ryel
That's a good way to "force" a card confiscation. If you are lucky, they will allow you to sign the card right there, but if you haven't left room for a valid signature, then they can confiscate it just as they would for any card with an invalid signature.
My cards are signed, but I have a friend whose cards say "Check ID." I think I'll give him a heads-up. |
Originally Posted by Jah-Wren Ryel
That's a good way to "force" a card confiscation. If you are lucky, they will allow you to sign the card right there, but if you haven't left room for a valid signature, then they can confiscate it just as they would for any card with an invalid signature.
|
Originally Posted by The Cow
In the real world, this is not true. I've done this for 20+ years.
Originally Posted by drmoze
Ah, I did not know this. (And never heard of a card being confiscated for this!) I assume MC, AmEx and Discover probably have similar rules?
|
Originally Posted by Jah-Wren Ryel
One store's policies - which serve to benefit the store, not their customers - are going to dictate your financial services?
You must really love CostCo and hate Amex. That doesn't amount to a hill of beans in a COMBO debit/credit card since the credit part doesn't require a pin. Furthermore, if it is a Visa or MC debit card, the pin isn't even required for swipeless transactions like online purchases. |
Originally Posted by chrisih8u
I don't know what Amazon is thinking. So far it seems that the CC companies have sided with us. So why would Amazon charge us, assuming they know that the CC companies would rule against this?
I think that Amazon will charge our cards, we fill file chargebacks, and that will be the end of it. Amazon will have gained a little back from people sending their stuff back and the people who might not notice the new charges. of what seems to be at best, innacurate or incomplete versions of what went down with this "sale/purchase". The outcome could be very different once both sides are on the table. |
Originally Posted by i86time
I was only pointing out, in a specific circumstance, why one may want (or have to) use a debit card rather than a CC.
If a COMBO card is stolen, unless the thief knows the pin, the card can only be used for credit. If the card is used fraudulently in a credit transaction, it is allowed the same fraud liability as a credit only card by the issuing company (VISA/MC) per that companies agreement with the issuing bank (at least that's what I was told by the accounts person at my local bank). When you use a Visa or MC checkcard and provide a signature, you have no legal protection. All you have is a policy forced on your bank by Visa/MC to be kind of sort of like the federal law that protects credit card users. When you use the PIN instead of a signature you don't even get that, you are stuck with whatever your bank feels like and it is usually different from (less than) the policy forced on them by Visa/MC for signature transactions. In this case, you have the benefit of knowing you can pay cash if you desire (like me) but if the card is stolen and used, it will most likely be done in a credit transaction, and you wouldn't be responsible for the charges. |
Originally Posted by Brooklyn
A lot of what the CC companies are saying is based on a very one sided explanation
of what seems to be at best, innacurate or incomplete versions of what went down with this "sale/purchase". The outcome could be very different once both sides are on the table. Not to be argumentative, but have you ever done a chargeback? It is a one sided deal b/c the credit card company is working on your behalf with your story. As long as you are honest with the story, you will win. See, the big overwhelming fact here is that Amazon's records/charges/invoices and shipping receipts all show the correct total charged plus have the words: "This completes your order". This is a very cut and dry case. They screwed up. NOW< what is the most interesting thing will be if they actually do charge people, then get hit with chargebacks. They will actually LOSE MORE money b/c if they are charged back by the card company, they will lose the transaction fee even though the charge is cancelled. SO< I can't believe that anyone inside that company would even initiate the charges knowing they have the potential to lose even more money. They are betting that most people will capitulate and return the goods. Most companies have the good sense to write off errors like this and call it a day, why they are wasting internal time and effort (costing them money), I have no idea. Just not good business sense. |
A merchant can also be slapped with higher Visa MC fees if they have a high chargeback rate. I don't think Amazon will risk that.
|
Originally Posted by Jah-Wren Ryel
Except CostCo does take credit cards - you said it yourself - Amex. I was only pointing out that your example was specious because choosing debit over credit based on the policies of one merchant is a silly way, in fact, inept way, to run one's financial affairs. I didn't actually mean you personally must hate Amex, doh! It was rhetoric.
Why would you ever want to use it for debit then? Why would you even want that "feature?" It only makes your more likely to have problems with fraud because now your single card is vulnerable to any kinds of debit card fraud and any kinds of credit card fraud. All you get is higher risk without any corresponding reward. First, there is no such thing as a combo credit/debit card. The person who first made that claim was just totally ignorant of the instrument they were using. I've since researched it and what he was talking about is a debit card that works both offline (signature) and online (pin). Both uses are debit - neither are credit. Offline debits are most commonly handled by Visa and MC as a "checkcard" while online debits are most commonly handled by various regional processing networks. To make this more clear, an example. If I have $500 in the bank account linked to my card (and it is the only bank account- no overdraft transfer possible), there is no way I can spend $500.01 using it as a debit with a pin. But, if I so choose, I can easily spend more than my balance if I run the transactions as a credit (at least my wife can, as it happened to her when her direct deposit did not come in on time). When you use a Visa or MC checkcard and provide a signature, you have no legal protection. All you have is a policy forced on your bank by Visa/MC to be kind of sort of like the federal law that protects credit card users. When you use the PIN instead of a signature you don't even get that, you are stuck with whatever your bank feels like and it is usually different from (less than) the policy forced on them by Visa/MC for signature transactions. Paying with your own cash is never a benefit, no matter what your bank's PR campaign has told you. |
Originally Posted by i86time
Again, though you may think this a poor example, it's a real world example nonetheless. It never fails that whenever I leave my city of residence, and I attempt to use a CC to pay for gas at the pump, I am declined greater than 80% of the time. I have never even been within $3000 of my limit on any card, yet they almost always tell me to 'see cashier inside.' I know this is some strange safety feature implemented in combination by the CC company and whatever company runs the POS system. However, I don't have the patience to go inside and talk to a cashier and run it whether there are 0 or 20 people inside. If I wanted that, I'd go in there in the first place. I have never had a debit transaction fail at any pump POS. Say what you will, but convenience is a powerful benefit.
|
After a half-dozen emails, this:
"Hello from Amazon.com. I apologize for the inconvenience that you have experienced with the recent charges. Please be rest assured that we have not attempted any additional charge of $35.49 to your credit card. The total amount being charged to your account is the same as you originally authorized when you placed this order on our web site." Even so....confidence is *not* high. |
imo...use credit card and pay off with bank funds in full. itll make your i-rates lower and better mortgage rates and such.. if your rich enough that it doesnt matter either way
|
Originally Posted by i86time
To make this more clear, an example. If I have $500 in the bank account linked to my card (and it is the only bank account- no overdraft transfer possible), there is no way I can spend $500.01 using it as a debit with a pin. But, if I so choose, I can easily spend more than my balance if I run the transactions as a credit (at least my wife can, as it happened to her when her direct deposit did not come in on time).
|
Originally Posted by i86time
I'm not sure this is true. My bank card can also be run on a debit or credit transaction.
But, if I so choose, I can easily spend more than my balance if I run the transactions as a credit (at least my wife can, as it happened to her when her direct deposit did not come in on time). Again, though you may think this a poor example, it's a real world example nonetheless. It never fails that whenever I leave my city of residence, and I attempt to use a CC to pay for gas at the pump, I am declined greater than 80% of the time. I'm not so afraid of my bank's policies. I've had to reverse a debit charge, and it was actually no problem and refunded rather quickly. Laws are nice, but as we all know, just because a law requires someone to do something, doesn't always mean they will. |
Originally Posted by tdubel
Not to be argumentative, but have you ever done a chargeback?
It is a one sided deal b/c the credit card company is working on your behalf with your story. As long as you are honest with the story, you will win. flat tire. I did no such thing, yet I lost. See, the big overwhelming fact here is that Amazon's records/charges/invoices and shipping receipts all show the correct total charged plus have the words: "This completes your order". This is a very cut and dry case. They screwed up. should have been charged, or the zero/differnce between the two? Amazon can easily show what the price should have been, as well as the terms of the b1g1 sale. Most companies have the good sense to write off errors like this and call it a day, why they are wasting internal time and effort (costing them money), I have no idea. Just not good business sense. In practically every other situation I'd agree that the merchant made an error and they should deal with it, but here the error appears to have been of the computer glitch variety. These things happen, it's not like the case could even be anywhere near interpretted as Amazon trying to entice its customers with a low price just to get more cash out of them later. This is why I also disagree with those who claim Amazon shouldn't be able to charge them in this instance due to it setting a precedence/creating a slippery slope. It wasn't a misprice, or big corporation pulling something over on the working Joe, it was an obvious glitch. ...One that should they not be able to remedy in this instance you can be sure they'll alter their wording to allow for a remedy should this happen again in the future (and that may include any type of snafu they want to call customers out on, so for those who rally behind the slippery slope arguement, as they say, be careful what you wish for). With sites like this one, CAG and all the others, it's possible for situations like this to get out of hand insanely fast. How much do you think Amazon lost in terms of what went out assuming no funds are ever recouperated? Sure seems like more than enough to outweigh what you're considering "not good business sense". My reasoning for that is that at the end of the day imo most folks will agree that those complaining about being charged are just trying to get something for nothing (as well as having placed the orders with the same intent), and therefore not have tainted feelings towards Amazon in the least. |
Originally Posted by Brooklyn
With sites like this one, CAG and all the others, it's possible for situations like this to get out of hand insanely fast. How much do you think Amazon lost in terms of what went out assuming no funds are ever recouperated?
(a) Amazon chooses to use an automated system, taking people out of the loop has inherent benefits and inherent risks, just as having people in the loop has a different set of benefits and risks. By implementing the system they did, they signed up for the risks that come with it. There are well understood means to mitigate the risks such that errors like this almost never slip through. As the largest web-retailer, Amazon is certainly aware of such methods. (b) The glitch was fixed before noon of the first day. Thus demonstrating that Amazon was aware of the problem very early on. Many orders did not ship for 3-5 days afterwards, giving Amazon plenty of time to cancel orders. Over the past few years Amazon has regularly demonstrated the capability of canceling opportunistic orders within 24-48 hours. For whatever reason, they chose not to exercise that same capability in this case. |
Originally Posted by Jah-Wren Ryel
Not that we haven't been over these exact points a billion times already...
Guess the count is now a billion and one :) |
maybe they thought you were an honest customer who wanted the items in for christmas or new years...for presents and they thought you were actually willing to pay what you knew you should be paying?
|
Originally Posted by Jah-Wren Ryel
Not that we haven't been over these exact points a billion times already...
(a) Amazon chooses to use an automated system, taking people out of the loop has inherent benefits and inherent risks, just as having people in the loop has a different set of benefits and risks. By implementing the system they did, they signed up for the risks that come with it. There are well understood means to mitigate the risks such that errors like this almost never slip through. As the largest web-retailer, Amazon is certainly aware of such methods. (b) The glitch was fixed before noon of the first day. Thus demonstrating that Amazon was aware of the problem very early on. Many orders did not ship for 3-5 days afterwards, giving Amazon plenty of time to cancel orders. Over the past few years Amazon has regularly demonstrated the capability of canceling opportunistic orders within 24-48 hours. For whatever reason, they chose not to exercise that same capability in this case. It is one thing to take advantage of this 'deal' - but now to complain that Amazon wants there stuff back... truely sad. The only facts of the situation are Amazon made a mistake and you took advantage of the mistake. Amazon catches the mistake and wants their merchandise back - and you say no because you want to keep their merchandise you didn't pay for. I have no idea how someone can keep the DVDs in this situation, and not feel like a dirtbag. Are 'free' DVDs worth it? |
Originally Posted by tdubel
I have summarily contacted my credit card company 3 times now about this issue and have received the same advice. I have a order confirmation via email, a shipping confirmation and a packing slip all stating the same prices and the completion of the order. My card company (Amazon Visa) said that all I do is request the chargeback, they will immediately do it and then send in copies of the paperwork. They agree that a merchant cannot subsequently raise their prices even thru their own error. SO, point is, just ignore the emails, only response I have sent is that "You do not have my permission nor authorization to charge my card for these past orders, and I added that I have already notified my card company of pending unauthorized charges, etc." Anyhow, Amazon is just threatening and if you capitulate, you will pay, if you fight it, you will win.
My opinion.
Originally Posted by tdubel
Not to be argumentative, but have you ever done a chargeback? It is a one sided deal b/c the credit card company is working on your behalf with your story. As long as you are honest with the story, you will win. See, the big overwhelming fact here is that Amazon's records/charges/invoices and shipping receipts all show the correct total charged plus have the words: "This completes your order". This is a very cut and dry case. They screwed up.
If not, who is to stop someone from doing a chargeback on a legitimate transaction? Has anyone told their CC company, "Amazon had a glitch that i knowingly took advantage of, now they are trying to get the money back that would have origianally been charged to me if the glitch were not in place. But the receipt said $x.xx so they should not be able to charge me more."? I would recommend they hear the facts from you instead of from amazon... |
Originally Posted by cpgator
Are 'free' DVDs worth it?
|
I've been sitting on the sidelines watching this whole debate, and I must say that I am getting tired of the pontificating. Perhaps, some did take advantage of the glitch. HOWEVER, what Amazon is trying to do is illegal. If they get away with this, it opens a giant sized slippery slope for the next company to do something worse. As it stands already, Amazon does not honor misprices, yet if you walk into a store, they are legally bound to honor them. I have also witnessed Amazon raise prices for an item while I was in the process of purchasing it. Mind you, I am not condoning intentionally taking advantage of a company, but Amazon does not exactly play fairly and should not be allowed to charge a card again after a completed transaction. It's as simple as that.
|
Originally Posted by BeatlePaul
I've been sitting on the sidelines watching this whole debate, and I must say that I am getting tired of the pontificating. Perhaps, some did take advantage of the glitch. HOWEVER, what Amazon is trying to do is illegal. If they get away with this, it opens a giant sized slippery slope for the next company to do something worse. As it stands already, Amazon does not honor misprices, yet if you walk into a store, they are legally bound to honor them. I have also witnessed Amazon raise prices for an item while I was in the process of purchasing it. Mind you, I am not condoning intentionally taking advantage of a company, but Amazon does not exactly play fairly and should not be allowed to charge a card again after a completed transaction. It's as simple as that.
|
Originally Posted by Jah-Wren Ryel
Can't say this more plainly - you are wrong. Your card is not a credit card....
I agree with Goldblum you've got some sort of special circumstances that are creating this problem for you - maybe something to do with your misunderstanding of credit cards vs debit cards or maybe something else. The only time I have ever been declined at the pump is when I refused to enter my zip code at one particularly intrusive station and I buy gas out of state at least 2-3 times a month. Go ahead and rationalize away your legal protections, the banks love customers who do that for them. Meanwhile, anyone who applies a bit of critical thinking will understand that spending other people's money gives one a lot more leverage than spending one's own. |
I am not saying it is a misprice. Rather, I am pointing out that Amazon does not follow rules that B&M must comply with (for example, misprices)
Even so, we are talking about "completed transactions." What they are trying to goes against their own terms of service. They could have EASILY cancelled the orders before they shipped, since many have commented that their orders shipped well AFTER the glitch was caught. Amazon allowed the orders to ship anyway. So, Amazon should at least share SOME of the blame. |
Originally Posted by BeatlePaul
Even so, we are talking about "completed transactions." What they are trying to goes against their own terms of service. They could have EASILY cancelled the orders before they shipped, since many have commented that their orders shipped well AFTER the glitch was caught. Amazon allowed the orders to ship anyway. So, Amazon should at least share SOME of the blame.
I can see Amazon saying "We ARE taking some of the blame, we are paying for them to send the items back." and also saying "They took atvantage of the glitch, they 'should at least share SOME of the blame' " |
Originally Posted by BeatlePaul
I've been sitting on the sidelines watching this whole debate, and I must say that I am getting tired of the pontificating. Perhaps, some did take advantage of the glitch. HOWEVER, what Amazon is trying to do is illegal. If they get away with this, it opens a giant sized slippery slope for the next company to do something worse. As it stands already, Amazon does not honor misprices, yet if you walk into a store, they are legally bound to honor them. I have also witnessed Amazon raise prices for an item while I was in the process of purchasing it. Mind you, I am not condoning intentionally taking advantage of a company, but Amazon does not exactly play fairly and should not be allowed to charge a card again after a completed transaction. It's as simple as that.
Also, this is not the first time Amazon has done this, or is Amazon the only company who has done this, so there goes the slipperly slope argument... And lastly, a store is not legally required to honor a pricing MISTAKE. If some employee at Best Buy puts a 1 cent sticker on a computer, BB will not be required to sell it for a penny. |
Originally Posted by cpgator
And lastly, a store is not legally required to honor a pricing MISTAKE. If some employee at Best Buy puts a 1 cent sticker on a computer, BB will not be required to sell it for a penny.
Every state I've lived in has had consumer protection laws that do require just that. Here's the first one that came up in google: Pay Attention at the Checkout. To prevent overcharges, make sure the items you purchase have price tags on them and that those tags match the price you are charged. If you are charged more than the tag price, notify the seller right away. Michigan law provides the seller must refund the difference plus a bonus of 10 times the difference up to $5.00, or be subject to a consumer lawsuit. |
Originally Posted by cpgator
Probably should have stayed on the slidelines a little longer... Do you actually know that what Amazon is doing is illegal, or do you just think it is? If you actually have proof that it is illegal, please provide the proof.
Also, this is not the first time Amazon has done this, or is Amazon the only company who has done this, so there goes the slipperly slope argument... And lastly, a store is not legally required to honor a pricing MISTAKE. If some employee at Best Buy puts a 1 cent sticker on a computer, BB will not be required to sell it for a penny. 2) I do not believe it is an accepted business practice to charge a card again after a completed transaction. 3) Perhaps not in your state, but in New York I believe it is. Next time, a little less attitude please. I was simply trying to make a point, not have an argument. |
Originally Posted by cpgator
And lastly, a store is not legally required to honor a pricing MISTAKE. If some employee at Best Buy puts a 1 cent sticker on a computer, BB will not be required to sell it for a penny.
This is only a valid argument if the mistake is caught before the transaction is completed and the transfer of goods has been made. If for some stupid reason the cashier at Best Buy were to ring up the computer for a penny and you paid for it and walked out the door with said computer there is nothing they can do about it. |
Originally Posted by cpgator
And lastly, a store is not legally required to honor a pricing MISTAKE. If some employee at Best Buy puts a 1 cent sticker on a computer, BB will not be required to sell it for a penny.
Edit: Nevermind... 5 people beat me to telling you that you were wrong. |
Originally Posted by ChefWinduAZ
This is only a valid argument if the mistake is caught before the transaction is completed and the transfer of goods has been made. If for some stupid reason the cashier at Best Buy were to ring up the computer for a penny and you paid for it and walked out the door with said computer there is nothing they can do about it.
|
Originally Posted by cpgator
And lastly, a store is not legally required to honor a pricing MISTAKE. If some employee at Best Buy puts a 1 cent sticker on a computer, BB will not be required to sell it for a penny.
|
As far as I know, if it rings up a penny, they can correct the problem right then, but once a reciept is given, then they cannot. I may be wrong though.
I equate this issue moreso in the... "I bought this box (for arguments sake) and it rang up for $x.xx, but upon inspection later, and the company finds out that another item was placed inside this box that the customer KNEW was in the box." |
Originally Posted by Jah-Wren Ryel
Perhaps you should have stayed on the sidelines yourself... Do you actually know what you are claiming is true, or do you just think it? If you actually have proof that it is true, please provide the proof.
Every state I've lived in has had consumer protection laws that do require just that. Here's the first one that came up in google: PS - notice there is nothing in this law about coming back a week later and getting your money back. Your link is about scanner accuracy, so I am not sure why you linked it. Scanner accuracy is the source of a lot of complaints and scams, therefore there are specific laws regarding it. What were are talking about here is mispriced items - either on a advertisement, on a store shelf, or on an website. If the printer doing your ads screws up and puts the wrong price on an item, you are not required to sell it for that price, as long as you make a correction. I am sure there are many links, here is the first on I found - http://www.competitionbureau.gc.ca/i...=522&lg=e#sale Section 74.05 of the Competition Act, which is a civil provision, prohibits the sale or rent of a product at a price higher than its advertised price. The provision does not apply if the advertised price was a mistake and the error was immediately corrected. |
All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:02 AM. |
Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.