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View Poll Results: Who would you vote for to be inducted into the HOF in 2018?
Barry Bonds
58.06%
Chris Carpenter
0
0%
Roger Clemens
61.29%
Johnny Damon
3.23%
Vladimir Guerrero
74.19%
Trevor Hoffman
54.84%
Andruw Jones
9.68%
Chipper Jones
80.65%
Jeff Kent
3.23%
Edgar Martinez
70.97%
Hideki Matsui
6.45%
Fred McGriff
35.48%
Jamie Moyer
3.23%
Mike Mussina
45.16%
Manny Ramirez
29.03%
Scott Rolen
6.45%
Johan Santana
6.45%
Curt Schilling
35.48%
Gary Sheffield
19.35%
Sammy Sosa
9.68%
Jim Thome
48.39%
Omar Vizquel
25.81%
Billy Wagner
3.23%
Larry Walker
19.35%
Other (Include in your post)
6.45%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 31. You may not vote on this poll

The 2018 Baseball Hall of Fame Ballot

Old 01-25-18, 09:48 AM
  #101  
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Re: The 2018 Baseball Hall of Fame Ballot

I think next year the elected class will be Rivera, Martinez, and Mussina
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Old 01-25-18, 09:53 AM
  #102  
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Re: The 2018 Baseball Hall of Fame Ballot

Originally Posted by Bacon View Post
Mariano Rivera
The others aren't HOF worthy
I think Halladay gets in, helped by the sympathy factor of his death. Which I know shouldn't make any difference in whether a guy is a Hall of Famer or not. But you know it does with the voters.

Halladay does have a reasonable argument in favor, leaving the sympathy vote out of it. A 10-year stretch of dominance where he was one of the best (if not the best) pitcher in the league. 2 Cy Youngs (with 5 other years in the top 5), 8 All Star appearances. Never got a ring, but that can't be put on him at all (2.37 ERA/0.737 WHIP in the post-season including a no-hitter, being only one of two men to do that in playoffs). His career WAR is borderline (if not a little below average compared to other Hall of Famers) because there isn't much to his career outside of that 10-year run.

I don't blame anyone for thinking he falls short. Personally, I'm more impressed by 10 years of being consistently great than guys who were never more than just good but over a longer period of time.
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Old 01-25-18, 10:17 AM
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Re: The 2018 Baseball Hall of Fame Ballot

Originally Posted by brainee View Post
I think Halladay gets in, helped by the sympathy factor of his death. Which I know shouldn't make any difference in whether a guy is a Hall of Famer or not. But you know it does with the voters.
Before his death, I don't think Halladay had much of a case for being a first ballot guy. Injuries were a real bummer to his career. He has a pretty borderline case overall, IMO.

Either way, I do wonder if the sympathy vote will go by the wayside now that there's been reports of drugs in his system at the time of the crash.
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Old 01-25-18, 10:40 AM
  #104  
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Re: The 2018 Baseball Hall of Fame Ballot

Originally Posted by mcnabb View Post
While I am a huge fan of Jim Thome, as he was one of the most popular Phillies for the little time he played here. For these writers to not even suspect that he did Steroids is another example of the double standard in this voting.

Yes, there were no 'rumors' of him taking PED's through his career, but the guy hit 600+ Homeruns during the Steroid era, how can you not suspect him? The only hitters to EVER do that before the Steroid Era was Ruth, Aaron and Mays (3 of the greatest hitters in the history of the sport).

The same went for Griffey when he was voted as there was no suspicion of him taking PED's despite the fact of hitting 57 Homeruns one season during the Steroid Era.
Welcome to the steroids era, where having big stats automatically subjects you to suspicion! I agree with you in that it annoys me when people assert that Griffey (or whoever) wasn't on PEDs, when they have no direct personal knowledge of anything. Everyone from that era is suspect, from the 25th roster spot to the top. That's the legacy baseball (and the players themselves) created by looking the other way for so long. Still, I think the voters have drawn a line, and it's a reasonable one (or at least defensible): we can't hold everyone under suspicion, so we'll vote for those who have no credible allegations against them.

Originally Posted by BrewCrew View Post
As somebody that thinks Clemens/Bonds will get voted in eventually even I have to say that was a rather small increase this year. Still think they get voted in the next four years, especially as the logjam of players continues to disappear with these large voting classes.
I highly doubt they get in; it isn't the logjam that is keeping them out, as they are the most deserving two on the ballot every year, i.e. they are the ones helping create the logjam, they're not victims of it. They have hit their ceiling.

Originally Posted by Osiris3657 View Post
I think next year the elected class will be Rivera, Martinez, and Mussina
I do too. I have mad respect for Mariano, even as a Yankee hater. His stats are amazing.

Originally Posted by brainee View Post
I think Halladay gets in, helped by the sympathy factor of his death. Which I know shouldn't make any difference in whether a guy is a Hall of Famer or not. But you know it does with the voters.

Halladay does have a reasonable argument in favor, leaving the sympathy vote out of it. A 10-year stretch of dominance where he was one of the best (if not the best) pitcher in the league. 2 Cy Youngs (with 5 other years in the top 5), 8 All Star appearances. Never got a ring, but that can't be put on him at all (2.37 ERA/0.737 WHIP in the post-season including a no-hitter, being only one of two men to do that in playoffs). His career WAR is borderline (if not a little below average compared to other Hall of Famers) because there isn't much to his career outside of that 10-year run.

I don't blame anyone for thinking he falls short. Personally, I'm more impressed by 10 years of being consistently great than guys who were never more than just good but over a longer period of time.
I don't think he gets in next year; I think he'll get more votes than he would otherwise, but not enough. Whether he gets in eventually, I dunno.
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Old 01-25-18, 10:50 AM
  #105  
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Re: The 2018 Baseball Hall of Fame Ballot

Originally Posted by LurkerDan View Post
I have mad respect for Mariano, even as a Yankee hater. His stats are amazing.
He was one Yankee I could never bring myself to hate. Not just the excellence on the field. But the guy always seemed to be the epitome of class. Maybe I missed something in the tabloids, but I don't remember ever hearing anything negative about him (even minor things like general "arrogance" that most Yankee stars seem to get accused of by some people).
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Old 01-25-18, 11:13 AM
  #106  
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Re: The 2018 Baseball Hall of Fame Ballot

Originally Posted by BrewCrew View Post
As somebody that thinks Clemens/Bonds will get voted in eventually even I have to say that was a rather small increase this year. Still think they get voted in the next four years, especially as the logjam of players continues to disappear with these large voting classes.

.
I always thought they should have voted all of the Steroid guys in one year when the ballot was light, so it would always be remember as the 'Steroid Hall of Fame' Class. Bonds, Clemens, Piazza, Bagwell, Palmeiro, etc. 25 years from now some kid will ask his father about that Hall of Fame class and why there are so many players with 600 Homeruns, and then it can be a teachable moment about the Steroids Era.
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Old 01-25-18, 11:17 AM
  #107  
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Re: The 2018 Baseball Hall of Fame Ballot

Originally Posted by mcnabb View Post
I always thought they should have voted all of the Steroid guys in one year when the ballot was light, so it would always be remember as the 'Steroid Hall of Fame' Class. Bonds, Clemens, Piazza, Bagwell, Palmeiro, etc. 25 years from now some kid will ask his father about that Hall of Fame class and why there are so many players with 600 Homeruns, and then it can be a teachable moment about the Steroids Era.
"Son, the lesson is that cheaters never prosper.... except for this one year when all the cheaters prospered together."
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Old 01-25-18, 11:26 AM
  #108  
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Re: The 2018 Baseball Hall of Fame Ballot

Originally Posted by Goat3001 View Post
"Son, the lesson is that cheaters never prosper.... except for this one year when all the cheaters prospered together."


I see what you're saying, but Bonds and Clemens and many Steroid guys are already or eventually going to get in, so my theory is lump them all together so they go down in history with that tagline.

But Baseball is littered with teachable moments, as Babe Ruth and Ty Cobb played during a time when Black people were banned from playing. I was shocked as a kid from the 80's learning about that, I can't imagine what a kid today would think of that when learning about it.
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Old 01-25-18, 11:53 AM
  #109  
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Re: The 2018 Baseball Hall of Fame Ballot

Plus, it is and probably always will be hard to know who all the cheaters were. Bags, Piazza, these guys swear that they didn't use. We know for sure or almost sure on Clemens, Bonds, ARod, Raffy, McGwire, Manny, and Sosa, and I may be forgetting others, but it's hard to know where to draw the line for that "Steroid class".
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Old 01-25-18, 12:21 PM
  #110  
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Re: The 2018 Baseball Hall of Fame Ballot

Originally Posted by LurkerDan View Post
Plus, it is and probably always will be hard to know who all the cheaters were. Bags, Piazza, these guys swear that they didn't use. We know for sure or almost sure on Clemens, Bonds, ARod, Raffy, McGwire, Manny, and Sosa, and I may be forgetting others, but it's hard to know where to draw the line for that "Steroid class".
I always looked at their stats and if there was this huge jump in Homeruns during that era for a few years, then you knew something was up.

For example Sammy Sosa HR total year by year:

1993: 33
1994: 25 (Strike Season)
1995: 36
1996: 40
1997: 36

Then this is when he started juicing as there is a HUGE jump:

1998: 66
1999: 63
2000: 50
2001: 64
2002: 49

The guy averaged 30-40 Homeruns from 1993-1997, then average between 50-60 Homeruns from 1998-2002. You can pretty go through every Steriod Era player, and most of their numbers stick out like this and it's easy to pinpoint when they started juicing.
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Old 01-25-18, 12:56 PM
  #111  
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Re: The 2018 Baseball Hall of Fame Ballot

Originally Posted by B5Erik View Post
He was the best closer I've ever seen. Period.
lol wut.

Originally Posted by LurkerDan View Post
Plus, it is and probably always will be hard to know who all the cheaters were. Bags, Piazza, these guys swear that they didn't use. We know for sure or almost sure on Clemens, Bonds, ARod, Raffy, McGwire, Manny, and Sosa, and I may be forgetting others, but it's hard to know where to draw the line for that "Steroid class".
Well, and all those guys in the 60's and 70's and probably beyond who were popping greenies and God knows what else.
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Old 01-25-18, 01:06 PM
  #112  
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Re: The 2018 Baseball Hall of Fame Ballot

Originally Posted by mcnabb View Post
The guy averaged 30-40 Homeruns from 1993-1997, then average between 50-60 Homeruns from 1998-2002. You can pretty go through every Steriod Era player, and most of their numbers stick out like this and it's easy to pinpoint when they started juicing.
Baseball has always had guys who made big jumps in their careers, for any number of reasons; it's not a reliable metric for juicing. And what about Palmeiro? Look at his stats, tell me when he started juicing? Can you tell when Manny started? ARod? And what about pitchers? Or non-sluggers? Juicing isn't all about home runs after all.

There are some where it seems fairly obvious, but that's a terrible way to generalize.
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Old 01-25-18, 01:56 PM
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Re: The 2018 Baseball Hall of Fame Ballot

Also, Sosa missed 38 games due to injury in 96. He probably would have hit 50 that year.

He did fail the original PED test, (the same one David Ortiz failed but for some reason gets a big pass for) so we know Sosa used something.

Eventually Bonds, Clemens, Sosa and all the rest will get in. After all the HOF is full of players that cheated.
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Old 01-25-18, 02:05 PM
  #114  
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Re: The 2018 Baseball Hall of Fame Ballot

Complete results:

Below are the results of the Baseball Writers' Association of America vote to elect the Baseball Hall of Fame Class of 2018, with vote totals and percentages. A total of 422 ballots were cast, with 317 required for election.

Chipper Jones: 410 votes (97.2%)
Vladimir Guerrero: 392 votes (92.9%)
Jim Thome: 379 votes (89.8%)
Trevor Hoffman: 337 votes (79.9%)

Edgar Martinez: 297 votes (70.4%)
Mike Mussina: 268 votes (63.5%)
Roger Clemens: 242 votes (57.3%)
Barry Bonds: 238 votes (56.4%)
Curt Schilling: 216 votes (51.2%)
Omar Vizquel: 156 votes (37.0%)
Larry Walker: 144 votes (34.1%)
Fred McGriff: 98 votes (23.2%)
Manny Ramirez: 93 votes (22.0%)
Jeff Kent: 61 votes (14.5%)
Gary Sheffield: 47 votes (11.1%)
Billy Wagner: 47 votes (11.1%)
Scott Rolen: 43 votes (10.2%)
Sammy Sosa: 33 votes (7.8%)
Andruw Jones: 31 votes (7.3%)

----------------------------------

Jamie Moyer: 10 votes (2.4%)
Johan Santana: 10 votes (2.4%)
Johnny Damon: 8 votes (1.9%)
Hideki Matsui: 4 votes (0.9%)
Chris Carpenter: 2 votes (0.5%)
Kerry Wood: 2 votes (0.5%)
Livan Hernandez: 1 vote (0.2%)
Carlos Lee: 1 vote (0.2%)
Orlando Hudson: 0 votes
Aubrey Huff: 0 votes
Jason Isringhausen: 0 votes
Brad Lidge: 0 votes
Kevin Millwood: 0 votes
Carlos Zambrano: 0 votes

All candidates who received less than 5 percent of the vote on ballots cast will be removed from future BBWAA consideration.
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Old 01-25-18, 03:51 PM
  #115  
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Re: The 2018 Baseball Hall of Fame Ballot

Originally Posted by LurkerDan View Post
I highly doubt they get in; it isn't the logjam that is keeping them out, as they are the most deserving two on the ballot every year, i.e. they are the ones helping create the logjam, they're not victims of it. They have hit their ceiling.
.
Well that certainly isn't true, even at the measly 4% they still will hit nearly 70%. Old voters go away every year and new ones area added so they will continue to increase. Plus there will be the old timers that refused to vote all along and will at year 10. Still very likely they are elected.
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Old 01-25-18, 04:10 PM
  #116  
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Re: The 2018 Baseball Hall of Fame Ballot

Problem is they lost a lot of momentum this year:

https://www.mlb.com/news/bbwaa-hall-...ed/c-265293460

When Hall of Fame vice chairman and legendary second baseman Joe Morgan sent out his letter to voters petitioning us to not vote for suspected steroid users like Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens, I wrote that it would all but end their chances to ever be elected by the BBWAA. People have strongly disagreed with that prediction, but I'm sticking with it. The issue isn't that I think Morgan's letter will change many minds. I believed that it would stop the momentum that Bonds and Clemens had been building over the last couple of years. And it has.

Bonds got 195 votes in 2016 and 238 votes in '17. Clemens went from 199 to 239. A 40-plus vote gain in one year is huge; if they could have had a similar bump this year, they would have put themselves in excellent position to get into the Hall of Fame over the next four years.

Instead, they made no movement at all. Bonds got exactly the same number of votes this year as last year. Clemens got three new votes. There were 20 fewer voters this year, so their percentages inched up a bit, but the only way they can make any real ground is by changing minds. I think the Morgan letter blunted that, as intended.

There are those who still think that Bonds and Clemens will make a real push toward 75 percent over the next four years. I just don't see it.
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Old 01-25-18, 04:21 PM
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Re: The 2018 Baseball Hall of Fame Ballot

Seems weird that Vlad wants to go into the HoF with Angels hat, rather than Expos. 8 years in MON vs 6 in LAA, although those 1st 2 years in MON he hardly played 1st year and only played half of 2nd year. I remember him more vividly as Angels player, but I thought he did more of his damage as an Expos player. I haven't looked at the stats but that was my gut feeling.
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Old 01-25-18, 04:32 PM
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Re: The 2018 Baseball Hall of Fame Ballot

^ He won an MVP and a HR Derby as an Angel. Doesn't seem that weird to me.
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Old 01-25-18, 04:40 PM
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Re: The 2018 Baseball Hall of Fame Ballot

Originally Posted by mcnabb View Post
While I am a huge fan of Jim Thome, as he was one of the most popular Phillies for the little time he played here. For these writers to not even suspect that he did Steroids is another example of the double standard in this voting.

Yes, there were no 'rumors' of him taking PED's through his career, but the guy hit 600+ Homeruns during the Steroid era, how can you not suspect him? The only hitters to EVER do that before the Steroid Era was Ruth, Aaron and Mays (3 of the greatest hitters in the history of the sport).

The same went for Griffey when he was voted as there was no suspicion of him taking PED's despite the fact of hitting 57 Homeruns one season during the Steroid Era.
I agree about Thome. I don't think he did steroids, but how would we know for sure? I think Griffey is pretty safe since we all watched him closely since his Rookie year and he had the prettiest swing we'd ever seen. He was The Natural; I don't think he did them or needed them.

On the other hand, I always wondered how every writer was so certain that Frank Thomas never did steroids. He had the physique and numbers of a user. Not that that proves anything, but to dismiss it out of hand?



And to admit certain players like Piazza and Bagwell who certainly had a cloud of suspicion over them while continuing to block all-timers Bonds and Clemens just seems nuts to me. That "We know they did it" plausibility excuse no longer holds water in my book.
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Old 01-25-18, 04:56 PM
  #120  
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Re: The 2018 Baseball Hall of Fame Ballot

Originally Posted by Decker View Post
^ He won an MVP and a HR Derby as an Angel. Doesn't seem that weird to me.
He also may want to associate himself with Mike Trout in a large media market rather than a dead franchise.

Originally Posted by Decker View Post
I agree about Thome. I don't think he did steroids, but how would we know for sure? I think Griffey is pretty safe since we all watched him closely since his Rookie year and he had the prettiest swing we'd ever seen. He was The Natural; I don't think he did them or needed them.
Yeah, and Griffey never had the big body.
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Old 01-25-18, 05:14 PM
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Re: The 2018 Baseball Hall of Fame Ballot

Originally Posted by Decker View Post
^ He won an MVP and a HR Derby as an Angel. Doesn't seem that weird to me.
why it's called an opinion, man.
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Old 01-25-18, 05:33 PM
  #122  
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Re: The 2018 Baseball Hall of Fame Ballot

I think it makes sense to want to go in as an Angel, because they're an active franchise that can honor him and keep connected to him as "their" hall of famer. Going as a hall of famer for a defunct franchise seems kind of silly (when an argument can be made for an active franchise).
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Old 01-25-18, 05:39 PM
  #123  
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Re: The 2018 Baseball Hall of Fame Ballot

Some misc stats on him from Baseball Reference.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/p...uerrvl01.shtml

MON (8 yrs): .323 AVG, .390 OBP, .588 SLG, .978 OPS, 234 HR, 702 RBI, 123 SB, 381 BB, 641 R, 34.6 WAR
LAA (6 yrs): .319 AVG, .381 OBP, .546 SLG, .927 OPS, 173 HR, 616 RBI, 52 SB, 304 BB, 544 R, 22.8 WAR

So yeah, definitely a better overall career in Montreal and even in his MVP season with the Angels there were probably a couple seasons as an Expo where he put up better numbers.

He can also say he's the first Angel Hall of Famer though.
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Old 01-25-18, 05:42 PM
  #124  
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Re: The 2018 Baseball Hall of Fame Ballot

Originally Posted by fumanstan View Post
He can also say he's the first Angel Hall of Famer though.
Really? Nobody went in as an Angel before?
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Old 01-25-18, 05:46 PM
  #125  
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Re: The 2018 Baseball Hall of Fame Ballot

Originally Posted by Decker View Post
Really? Nobody went in as an Angel before?
Apparently!

https://www.ocregister.com/2018/01/2...-hall-of-fame/

The Angels, who played their first season in 1961, are baseball’s oldest franchise not represented by a player in Cooperstown. The others are the Colorado Rockies, Miami Marlins and Tampa Bay Rays, expansion teams created since 1993. There also no players depicted wearing a Nationals cap, although there are some who represent the franchise’s origin in Montreal. They began playing in Washington in 2005.

Other Hall of Famers who played significant stretches with the Angels — most notably Nolan Ryan and Rod Carew — are shown on their Hall of Fame plaques wearing other caps.
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