Release List Reviews Shop Join News DVD Giveaways Video Games Advertise
DVD Reviews | Theatrical Reviews | Price Search Buy Stuff Here
DVD Talk
DVD Reviews DVD Talk Headlines HD Reviews


Add to My Yahoo! - RSS 2.0 - RSS 2.0 - DVD Talk Podcast RSS -


Go Back   DVD Talk Forum > General Discussions > Sports Talk

Sports Talk Discuss all things Sports Related

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 02-07-17, 11:30 AM   #26
DVD Talk Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Twin Cities, US of A
Posts: 11,163
Re: NFL Rules: Sudden Death & Breaking the Plane

It's going to be be a very long offseason if this thread is any indicator.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-17, 11:33 AM   #27
DVD Talk Legend
 
creekdipper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 17,429
Re: NFL Rules: Sudden Death & Breaking the Plane

Quote:
Originally Posted by Obi-Wan Jabroni View Post
We are not establishing possession "in the end zone," we are establishing possession, period. The receiver has to maintain possession to the ground for it to be called a catch, in any situation, endzone or otherwise. The runner already has possession, so as soon as it crosses the line in in his possession, the play is over, touchdown.
Bah, humbug, Obi-Wan. I still hate the rule.

If a runner is held up at midfield and the ball is punched loose, it's a fumble. The ball is not dead until he hits the ground...regardless of the forward progress of the ball. I'd just like to see that logic applied to TD. The player has to physically enter the end zone (or the ball touched down) before a TD is awarded. The "plane" may theoretically extend around the world, but the game is played on an actual field.

Personally, I think it would eliminate some controversy while increasing the excitement & entertainment value for the fans. I've read (and heard) a lot of similar comments from fans who don't like the rule.

What would be the downside of changing the rule to require the ball, while either the ball to actually "touch down" upon the physical turf, which would be considered the end zone for ruling purposes? Wouldn't that be more appealing than the current system from a fan standpoint?

The question is not what the rule is...it's whether changing it would enhance the game. That's the motivation behind a large percentage of changes.

Last edited by creekdipper; 02-07-17 at 11:38 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-17, 11:35 AM   #28
DVD Talk Legend
 
creekdipper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 17,429
Re: NFL Rules: Sudden Death & Breaking the Plane

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Needle View Post
It's going to be be a very long offseason if this thread is any indicator.
Don't tune in to many sports talk shows, eh, Bill?
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-17, 11:50 AM   #29
Political Exile
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Llama School
Posts: 6,531
Re: NFL Rules: Sudden Death & Breaking the Plane

It would not enhance the game.

There are thousands of plays each year that end without the ball ever touching the ground. If a players knee, ass, elbow, etc touches the ground while he is in possession, and he is touched by the opposing team, the play is over. That happens all the time without the ball touching the ground.

A player can also lose his forward progress, if he willingly runs backwards, a la Barry Sanders.

Hard concepts for one that has played the game.
__________________
Christian sinners, stealing the emotional well-being of LGBTs with their ancient Linus blanket.

Protect the 1st Amendment and the Constitution except if you post off topic!
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-17, 12:07 PM   #30
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
 
hdnmickey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Pacific NW
Posts: 9,797
Re: NFL Rules: Sudden Death & Breaking the Plane

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lt Ripley View Post
A player can also lose his forward progress, if he willingly runs backwards, a la Barry Sanders.
If one was seriously looking to do something about arbitrary end of play calls, that would be the first place to start. These days it's all but based on just how tough (or not) the ref thinks each ball carrier is, and then it gets even more ridiculous when there is a fumble during the play.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-17, 12:11 PM   #31
DVD Talk Legend
 
creekdipper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 17,429
Re: NFL Rules: Sudden Death & Breaking the Plane

No one said that the ball itself had to touch the ground. It was either the ball (extended by the runner but physically landing in the end zone) OR the player carrying the ball. In either case, the end zone would be defined as the turf...not the air space above the turf.

The point about losing forward progress is evidence that the "posession/progress" rule is not applied equally all over the field.

And it shouldn't have to be said that you don't have to resort to personal insults to discuss the desirability of rules. Apparently it does, though.

The rule doesn't have to be explained over & over. The desirability of the rule is what should be discussed. If you like the rule, fine. If you think it makes the game more exciting, fine.

What I won't do is imply that the people who like the existing rules are stupid because they prefer rules changes. And, frankly, I don't understand the mindset of those who do.

And I still haven't seen any argument being given that requiring the tip of the ball to actually be on the ground beyond the goal line (or in the grasp of a player clearly carrying the ball beyond the goal line onto the end zone turf) would not make the game more exciting by creating more possibilities for goal line stands. It would make it a little tougher to score, but with rules favoring offenses these days, is that such a bad thing?

Last edited by creekdipper; 02-07-17 at 12:20 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-17, 12:16 PM   #32
DVD Talk Legend
 
Goat3001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: NYC
Posts: 16,388
Re: NFL Rules: Sudden Death & Breaking the Plane

Quote:
Originally Posted by creekdipper View Post
Citation re: statistics proving that contention?
http://www.espn.com/blog/statsinfo/p...ts-ot-strategy

There are some numbers in there that show that there is an advantage when winning the coin toss but it isn't as big as people think it is. Though I admit that when I posted it earlier I thought it was a 52/48 split which is smaller than noted here.

Quote:
When you suggest that the "only" real way of fixing overtime is to play a set number of extra minutes (just like the NBA), that's not how college solves the problem. And there is more drama in the college game than the pro game, IMO. And the system seems fairer to both teams, and the defensive/offensive strengths of a team still are factors. So do other factors such as depth, endurance, etc.

If the system is so good, why don't other sports use it? First team to score a run in extra innings wins. First team to score ten points in basketball wins. First team to score in a soccer shootout wins. Etc., etc.
The college system takes away a big aspect of football -- field position. Special teams is a pretty damn important part of a football game and without kicks and punts, that's completely taken away. There are no chances for a safety and teams don't have to put together big drives to win. That is far worse than a coin flip deciding who gets the ball first.

On top of that, the team that goes second in OT in college has as big of an advantage as the team that wins the coin toss in the NFL. https://theringer.com/nfl-overtime-r...e3c#.zbdeq8p1r

The reason other sports don't use it is because all sports are different. The NBA system wouldn't work in the NHL, just like the NHL system wouldn't work in the NBA. Neither system would work in baseball. It's not exactly a crazy thought to think that different OT rules are needed for different sports.
__________________

Last edited by Goat3001; 02-07-17 at 12:21 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-17, 12:17 PM   #33
Political Exile
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Llama School
Posts: 6,531
Re: NFL Rules: Sudden Death & Breaking the Plane

Quote:
Originally Posted by creekdipper View Post
No one said that the ball itself had to touch the ground.
Quote:
Originally Posted by creekdipper View Post
I totally understand how the rules are applied. I'm questioning why the rules are designed to call something a "touchdown" when the ball never actually comes down within the end zone. And saying that requiring the ball to physically be on the ground to be ruled a touchdown would be a much more exciting scenario for the fans and would reward defensive effort to shove back runners in the air. If the guy can leap the pile and come down in the end zone, more power to him. Make the rules for scoring like rugby (ironically, their scores are called a "try" when they actually touch the ball down).
I'm sorry, did you type that?

If you feel insulted, go cry to a mod. maybe, maybe THEY will give a shit.
__________________
Christian sinners, stealing the emotional well-being of LGBTs with their ancient Linus blanket.

Protect the 1st Amendment and the Constitution except if you post off topic!
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-17, 12:18 PM   #34
DVD Talk Hero
 
davidh777's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Home of 2013 NFL champion Seahawks
Posts: 36,465
Re: NFL Rules: Sudden Death & Breaking the Plane

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Needle View Post
It's going to be be a very long offseason if this thread is any indicator.
I just skip the posts that are over 500 words.
__________________
Challenges: Action 2017 | Academy Award 2017 | TV on DVD* 2017 | Holiday 2016 | Comedy 2016 | Horror 2016 | Criterion 2016 | Animation 2016 | Sci-Fi 2016 | Historical 2016 | Make-Your-Own 2016 | Drive-In 2016 | Leap Day 2016
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-17, 12:36 PM   #35
DVD Talk Legend
 
creekdipper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 17,429
Re: NFL Rules: Sudden Death & Breaking the Plane

Quote:
Originally Posted by Goat3001 View Post
The reason other sports don't use it is because all sports are different. The NBA system wouldn't work in the NHL, just like the NHL system wouldn't work in the NBA. Neither system would work in baseball. It's not exactly a crazy thought to think that different OT rules are needed for different sports.
I don't think that the college rules are perfect or would necessarily translate to the pro game. And due to the nature of football, I don't think that continually extending the game for time periods is necessarily safe, either (although somebody has to eventually score under any system unless we want a Super Bowl to end in a tie).

And, as you pointed out, the team getting the ball second has a definite advantage in knowing what they have to do in order to win. That would carry over to the pros even if kickoffs were used rather than spotting the ball near the red zone. But it would also affect strategy for both teams.

I just think that the receiving team should have to kick off and the other team given a chance to tie or take the lead. That keeps the elements you mention, such as special teams, in the mix. And two-point conversions can break ties.

My point about OT rules for other sports being different is that all other major team sports I can think of give an equal chance of scoring to both teams (or at least an equal amount of time). It seems that the other sports consider it only fair to give both teams equal opportunities to score. Why should football be the exception (logically speaking, and not just because, "Hey...it's football").

And if people like the current system, I don't think you're stupid regardless of whether you actually ever played or not at any level.

Last edited by creekdipper; 02-07-17 at 12:46 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-17, 12:41 PM   #36
DVD Talk Legend
 
creekdipper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 17,429
Re: NFL Rules: Sudden Death & Breaking the Plane

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lt Ripley View Post
I'm sorry, did you type that?

If you feel insulted, go cry to a mod. maybe, maybe THEY will give a shit.
What is your point? Or is there one?

As for the rest...

I don't think that most here consider exercising basic rules of civility toward other forum members and expecting others to do the same is expecting too much. And I believe that most forum members DO actually care about keeping the posts civil.

And, as previously stated, most don't understand the mindset of those who don't agree with refraining from personal insults. Or at least have a hard time relating.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-17, 12:41 PM   #37
DVD Talk Legend
 
creekdipper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 17,429
Re: NFL Rules: Sudden Death & Breaking the Plane

Quote:
Originally Posted by davidh777 View Post
I just skip the posts that are over 500 words.
Do you have a program that counts them, or do you just do a rough estimate?
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-17, 12:45 PM   #38
Political Exile
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Llama School
Posts: 6,531
Re: NFL Rules: Sudden Death & Breaking the Plane

Quote:
Originally Posted by creekdipper View Post
[B]What is your point? Or is there one?
That you contradict yourself. Not that hard to see either.
__________________
Christian sinners, stealing the emotional well-being of LGBTs with their ancient Linus blanket.

Protect the 1st Amendment and the Constitution except if you post off topic!
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-17, 12:47 PM   #39
Premium Member
 
The Cow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Grazing in a field somewhere...
Posts: 19,721
Re: NFL Rules: Sudden Death & Breaking the Plane

** Picard face palm **
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-17, 01:03 PM   #40
DVD Talk Legend
 
creekdipper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 17,429
Re: NFL Rules: Sudden Death & Breaking the Plane

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lt Ripley View Post
That you contradict yourself. Not that hard to see either.
Affording you the respect that you don't extend to other forum members, allow me to quote from the same "contradictory" post you quoted:

"And saying that requiring the ball to physically be on the ground to be ruled a touchdown would be a much more exciting scenario for the fans and would reward defensive effort to shove back runners in the air. If the guy can leap the pile and come down in the end zone, more power to him."

It was repeatedly stated the issue was the runner (with the ball in his possession) OR the ball itself (being extended over the goal line even though runner's entire body never crossed) being required to count as as a TD. The issue was whether the ball...or runner and ball...crossing the goal line in the air but never actually, physically landing on the turf should count as a touchdown. I say no; others say yes.

It's hard to believe that you were seriously reading that the ball itself had to make contact with the end zone turf even if the ball was in the hands of the runner/receiver in the end zone. No one else interpreted it that way; they knew that the issue was about the "plane" above the goal line. And their arguments were made defending the "plane-breaking" rule re: "ball in the air" without either ball or runner touching the turf.

You appear to be wanting to draw people you don't like into arguments purely for the sake of arguing.

As always, not interested.

Last edited by creekdipper; 02-07-17 at 01:09 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-17, 01:04 PM   #41
DVD Talk Limited Edition
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 5,488
Re: NFL Rules: Sudden Death & Breaking the Plane

I've always loved College OT rules, as I think it is exciting and both teams get the same amount of chances. Most of my friends hate it, as I'm not sure how everyone feels here, but I guess I'm in the minority.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-17, 01:10 PM   #42
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
 
hdnmickey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Pacific NW
Posts: 9,797
Re: NFL Rules: Sudden Death & Breaking the Plane

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnabb View Post
I've always loved College OT rules, as I think it is exciting and both teams get the same amount of chances. Most of my friends hate it, as I'm not sure how everyone feels here, but I guess I'm in the minority.
Biggest issue for me is just how much longer the game goes on. Given their game already last forever because of the clock stoppages for every first down, I'm against anything that makes the game take even longer.

And there will always be one team that doesn't get the ball back to respond to every score. Which leads me back to just letting far more non-championship football games end in a tie after the end of regulation. Or at most, after one extra 15 minute quarter, no sudden death except for championship games.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-17, 01:13 PM   #43
Political Exile
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Llama School
Posts: 6,531
Re: NFL Rules: Sudden Death & Breaking the Plane

Quote:
Originally Posted by creekdipper View Post
As always, not interested.
But you respond. The norm.

And as far as your repeated "would be a much more exciting scenario for the fans" statement. You, Creek, are not everybody. Show me this massive outcry of fans demanding the entire ball has to be across the line for football to be more exciting. Seems football is massively popular and exciting with the breaking the plane rule the way it is. Thousands of successful goal line stands throughout the history of football.
__________________
Christian sinners, stealing the emotional well-being of LGBTs with their ancient Linus blanket.

Protect the 1st Amendment and the Constitution except if you post off topic!
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-17, 01:13 PM   #44
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
 
Obi-Wan Jabroni's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Detroit
Posts: 8,874
Re: NFL Rules: Sudden Death & Breaking the Plane

I also like college OT, but I favor the college game over the pro game in most situations. That may just be a byproduct of living in metro Detroit though
__________________
"I doubt anyone would use any of my comments in their signature." - gcribbs

-----
PSN: CactusKind
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-17, 01:23 PM   #45
Political Exile
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Llama School
Posts: 6,531
Re: NFL Rules: Sudden Death & Breaking the Plane

Quote:
Originally Posted by Obi-Wan Jabroni View Post
I favor the college game over the pro game in most situations.
__________________
Christian sinners, stealing the emotional well-being of LGBTs with their ancient Linus blanket.

Protect the 1st Amendment and the Constitution except if you post off topic!
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-17, 01:24 PM   #46
DVD Talk Legend
 
creekdipper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 17,429
Re: NFL Rules: Sudden Death & Breaking the Plane

Quote:
Originally Posted by hdnmickey View Post
Biggest issue for me is just how much longer the game goes on. Given their game already last forever because of the clock stoppages for every first down, I'm against anything that makes the game take even longer.

And there will always be one team that doesn't get the ball back to respond to every score. Which leads me back to just letting far more non-championship football games end in a tie after the end of regulation. Or at most, after one extra 15 minute quarter, no sudden death except for championship games.
Those sound like reasonable proposals to me. I don't see what is so bad about tie games in regular season, except that most fans don't like ties...just like Paul Bryant.

And even giving the ball to both teams won't solve the problem, as it could extend the game indefinitely, especially when both teams have cruddy or injury-riddled defenses. And going to sudden death if both teams score on initial possessions just reverts to the current system.

Here's an interesting proposal I read. I'm not totally on board with it, but it does eliminate the "coin flip" randomness. To summarize, the writer suggests that the team in possession of the ball at end of regulation gets the ball first in OT (in his words, the OT period just becomes an extension of the fourth quarter).

http://www.twcc.com/articles/2017/02...overtime-rules

He's still in favor of keeping sudden death system, but he argues that giving the ball to the team who had it at the end of regulation involves strategies rather than randomness. Does the coach try for a long field goal or Hail Mary at the end or regulation, or opt to get the ball first & just run out the clock? Not a major difference, but at least there is some strategy involved rather than having the coin toss decide who gets the ball.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-17, 01:25 PM   #47
DVD Talk Legend
 
Goat3001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: NYC
Posts: 16,388
Re: NFL Rules: Sudden Death & Breaking the Plane

Quote:
Originally Posted by creekdipper View Post
I just think that the receiving team should have to kick off and the other team given a chance to tie or take the lead. That keeps the elements you mention, such as special teams, in the mix. And two-point conversions can break ties.

My point about OT rules for other sports being different is that all other major team sports I can think of give an equal chance of scoring to both teams (or at least an equal amount of time). It seems that the other sports consider it only fair to give both teams equal opportunities to score. Why should football be the exception (logically speaking, and not just because, "Hey...it's football").

And if people like the current system, I don't think you're stupid regardless of whether you actually ever played or not at any level.
Ok, so we've decided to rule out college rules... so what's the solution then? Just giving the other team a chance doesn't actually solve the problem. If the Falcons got the ball in OT and went on to score a TD, where do they go from there? Do the Patriots get the ball in a sudden death situation where a field goal wins the game? Doesn't that pretty much give them the same advantage they had before? Do they keep going until one team scores twice in a row (which would lead to a whole lot of ties)?

With OT, the NFL wants to accomplish a few things.

1 - Not to elongate the game too much for various reasons.

2 - Not bastardize the game to the point where it's like an NHL shootout.

3 - Have as few ties as possible.

In your opinion, what's the best solution?
__________________
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-17, 01:42 PM   #48
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
 
hdnmickey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Pacific NW
Posts: 9,797
Re: NFL Rules: Sudden Death & Breaking the Plane

Quote:
Originally Posted by Obi-Wan Jabroni View Post
I also like college OT, but I favor the college game over the pro game in most situations. That may just be a byproduct of living in metro Detroit though
I do prefer the college rules over the NFL for everything that has to do with passing. One foot in bounds, what is a catch, pass-interference calls haven't become completely and totally random.

Speaking of crazy NFL PI calls, another issue that could become a thing for NFL teams in OT is just chucking the ball into the end zone on first down hoping for one of those ridiculous PI calls, or the lack of calls when a the biggest guy just pushes off on all DB's. Immediately get the ball down to the one yard line for that game ending TD. Doesn't work, you still got 2nd and 3rd down.

Last edited by hdnmickey; 02-07-17 at 02:14 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-17, 01:59 PM   #49
DVD Talk Legend
 
creekdipper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 17,429
Re: NFL Rules: Sudden Death & Breaking the Plane

Quote:
Originally Posted by Goat3001 View Post
In your opinion, what's the best solution?
Good question, and I'm not sure. We don't want to see a soccer-style field-goal contest settling the game...at least, I don't think that's the case.

Keep in mind that this was the first OT game in SB history, so it's not as though it's likely to be a problem too often.

The thing about extending the game is that this could happen under the current system. Both teams could have great defenses, shaky kickers, fumble-prone backs, etc...although SB teams ought to be better quality than that (tell that to the Denver team that was annihilated a few years back).

As mentioned, depth & fatigue might make the difference. It's hard to say how long the game might be prolonged if each team got equal chances. And would some go for two & the win or just kick the extra point and keep the game going?

Even the potential scenario you described (two TDs followed by sudden death FG) seems a little fairer because at least the kicking team had an opportunity to respond. If the receiving team failed to score, but the kicking team did, the game would end (just as with other sports do).

I think that it could be tried to see what would happen. Remember that we're only talking about giving the kicking team the chance to respond to a score on the initial drive. If neither team scores on first possessions, some might argue that the situation then reverts to sudden death anyway unless OT is a five-minute period or something similar.

There is the college system. Fans can complain about extended games, but most fans I know still fondly remember those marathon multiple-overtime games that become legendary.

If we want to be creative, do the old schoolyard method akin to shooting free throws to see who gets the ball first. Have both teams attempt field goals to see which team gets the option first.

Just kidding on that last one.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-17, 02:19 PM   #50
DVD Talk Gold Edition
 
rocket1312's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 2,994
Re: NFL Rules: Sudden Death & Breaking the Plane

I don't care for how the current NFL rules differentiate between field goals and touchdowns. They either need to go back to true sudden death, or the the opponent should get a possession regardless of whether a field goal or a touchdown is scored. I think a 10 minute non-sudden death overtime period would be the best way to handle it, but I understand the reasons why the league might not want to do that.

I absolutely hate the college rule. As was already mentioned, it almost completely removes special teams and field position from the equation. It also removes the possibility/need for big downfield plays. Just way too gimmicky for my tastes.
__________________
My BDs
  Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:43 AM.


Copyright 2011 DVDTalk.com All Rights Reserved. Privacy Policy and Terms of Use.

Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.2.0