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2012-2013 MLB Off-Season Thread

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2012-2013 MLB Off-Season Thread

Old 10-04-12, 12:12 PM
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2012-2013 MLB Off-Season Thread

And it starts with one of the least shocking announcements ever :

Bobby Valentine out as Red Sox Manager.
Old 10-04-12, 12:19 PM
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Re: 2012-2013 MLB Off-Season Thread

Didn't see that one coming.
Old 10-04-12, 12:30 PM
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Re: 2012-2013 MLB Off-Season Thread

Funny thing is that with the Sox rebuilding, Bobby V might be the best manager for the job. He's a lot better with young players than he is with veterans. If this season wasn't such a debacle and if he didn't completely ruin his relationship with the teams current top talent, he could have kept his job and done well next season. Alas, when the important players on a team all hate you, you gots to go.
Old 10-04-12, 12:51 PM
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Re: 2012-2013 MLB Off-Season Thread

Originally Posted by Goat3001 View Post
Funny thing is that with the Sox rebuilding, Bobby V might be the best manager for the job. He's a lot better with young players than he is with veterans. If this season wasn't such a debacle and if he didn't completely ruin his relationship with the teams current top talent, he could have kept his job and done well next season. Alas, when the important players on a team all hate you, you gots to go.
I don't disagree with what you posted there, but it doesn't address the fact that he sure seems like damaged goods. It's not all on the players and he never seemed like a good fit from the get-go, but certainly things got worse as the season went on. Really after that radio tirade last month (which is apparently unavailable on You Tube), there was no going back. The guy seemed unhinged.
Old 10-04-12, 01:25 PM
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Re: 2012-2013 MLB Off-Season Thread

Twins are starting to shake it up at least a little. Bullpen and 3rd base coaches fired and hitting coach reassigned.

Pretty rare for the org to fire anyone, even if these pretty much have the stank of symbolic gestures.
Old 10-04-12, 01:51 PM
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Re: 2012-2013 MLB Off-Season Thread

Originally Posted by Decker View Post
I don't disagree with what you posted there, but it doesn't address the fact that he sure seems like damaged goods. It's not all on the players and he never seemed like a good fit from the get-go, but certainly things got worse as the season went on. Really after that radio tirade last month (which is apparently unavailable on You Tube), there was no going back. The guy seemed unhinged.
Well yeah, the way things played out certainly killed his chances of ever finding a managerial job again.

However, I was speaking in hypothetical. I think the team they built was fundamentally flawed. So I still think they go on to blow it up and rebuild, regardless of Bobby V. And if Bobby had kept a level head and didn't do anything stupid, I think he'd be a good manager for the rebuilding Red Sox.
Old 10-04-12, 02:11 PM
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Re: 2012-2013 MLB Off-Season Thread

Chicken-Egg. If the Sox hadn't hired Bobby V in the first place, or hadn't fired Tito, would they be in rebuilding mode now? I don't know, but that's an argument one could make.


I was thinking (and NOT about Bobby V) -- Who's your AL Manager of the Year : Bob Melvin or Buck Schowalter? That's a really difficult call for me; both did a spectacular job
Old 10-04-12, 02:13 PM
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Re: 2012-2013 MLB Off-Season Thread

Buck probably wins it easily, but it should be close.
Old 10-04-12, 02:16 PM
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Re: 2012-2013 MLB Off-Season Thread

Originally Posted by Goat3001 View Post
Well yeah, the way things played out certainly killed his chances of ever finding a managerial job again.
hyperbole much? All he did was kill his chances of being a Red Sox manager ever again. If Bobby V wants another job, someone will give it to him at some point. Ok, this year did do one thing, it took the ball out of his hands, so to speak. Before this year, he was more of a desired commodity. Now he might have to manage the Padres and accept a much smaller salary.

Last edited by LurkerDan; 10-04-12 at 02:38 PM.
Old 10-04-12, 02:29 PM
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Re: 2012-2013 MLB Off-Season Thread

dbacks fire sutton and grace on tv side. i shall miss you gracie.
Old 10-04-12, 02:48 PM
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Re: 2012-2013 MLB Off-Season Thread

Originally Posted by starman9000 View Post
Buck probably wins it easily, but it should be close.
That's a tough one between Melvin and Showalter. Really hard to argue against either of them winning.

Originally Posted by Deftones View Post
dbacks fire sutton and grace on tv side. i shall miss you gracie.
So Sutton got fired for complaining about the dress code, and Grace got fired for getting a dui, correct?

Not mentioned here, but Miami is supposed to fire Ozzie Guillen soon. I wonder if the recently canned Bobby V has any interest in that job at all.
Old 10-04-12, 02:59 PM
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Re: 2012-2013 MLB Off-Season Thread

Originally Posted by LurkerDan View Post
hyperbole much? All he did was kill his chances of being a Red Sox manager ever again. If Bobby V wants another job, someone will give it to him at some point. Ok, this year did do one thing, it took the ball out of his hands, so to speak. Before this year, he was more of a desired commodity. Now he might have to manage the Padres and accept a much smaller salary.
I doubt it. I can't see a team hiring him because I think he brings too much media hooplah for it to be worth it for most teams. He's a good manager, but teams can find someone just as good that doesn't come with baggage. I think he's damaged goods and it'll take time for the stench of this season to wear off... and by then he probably won't even want to manage.

Though as I write that I realize that there are teams out there that might just want to hire someone that does bring media attention. Kind of what Boston and Miami did with their latest hires. I can see a team giving him a shot in that circumstance.
Old 10-04-12, 03:01 PM
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Re: 2012-2013 MLB Off-Season Thread

exactly. any team outside of the major media markets, especially young floundering teams, may appreciate whatever buzz he brings to them.
Old 10-04-12, 03:40 PM
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Re: 2012-2013 MLB Off-Season Thread

Will the Sabermetric guys have a case for Kershaw (14-9, 2.53, 229 SO, WHIP 1.023, WAR 6.3) over Dicky (20-6, 2.73, 230 SO, WHIP 1.053, WAR 5.2)? I think they're close enough that the better record puts Dicky over the top, but imagine it would be close. Or would Cueto get it since he's in the playoffs?
Old 10-04-12, 04:06 PM
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Re: 2012-2013 MLB Off-Season Thread

My guess would be Dickey gets it. Out of nowhere, injured the whole time, abused as a child vs Dodgers stud that won 6 less games?
Old 10-04-12, 04:12 PM
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Re: 2012-2013 MLB Off-Season Thread

Yeah. We all know that pitching Wins is the most over-rated, now-devalued stat in baseball (and maybe in all of sports), but that's a big difference in records. Still, don't forget King Felix won the 2010 AL Cy Young with a 13-12 record.
Old 10-04-12, 04:15 PM
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Re: 2012-2013 MLB Off-Season Thread

Originally Posted by Decker View Post
Will the Sabermetric guys have a case for Kershaw (14-9, 2.53, 229 SO, WHIP 1.023, WAR 6.3) over Dicky (20-6, 2.73, 230 SO, WHIP 1.053, WAR 5.2)? I think they're close enough that the better record puts Dicky over the top, but imagine it would be close. Or would Cueto get it since he's in the playoffs?
The SABR guys might try to argue it, but they shouldn't. The other well known thing in the SABR community is that the SABR stats generally don't work well for knuckleball pitchers.

The belief that the CY voting is now influenced more and more by SABR stats is a nice narrative, but it's a myth. It somehow started when Felix won the award with so few wins. All voters have done is trade ERA for wins in terms of importance; if you look at the last few years (especially 2-5 in the voting) it doesn't track with the SABR stats(at all) and tracks much better with ERA (wins and K's are now more of a secondary tiebreaker)

Last year was a great example:
- Verlander and CC were 1-2 (in fact in fWAR, CC was actually slightly ahead of Verlander). Verlander won in a landslide, and rightfully so.
- CC finished 4th in the Cy voting (2nd in bWAR, 1st in fWAR).
- Jeff Weaver with his shiny ERA finished 2nd (3rd in bWAR, 6th in fWAR)
- James Shield finished 3rd (7th in bWAR, 8th in fWAR); but he had a good ERA

The year Felix won the award and the vote was hailed as SABR stats taking hold.... who finished 2nd?
- David Price - 8th in bWAR, 16th in fWAR; but again, he had a tremendous ERA

The SABR stats for pitching really should only be used for predictive purposes. It's more of a "what should have happened in theory" than a measurement of what did happen. The baseball refernce (bWAR) system is a bit better than Fangraphs (fWAR) - fWAR basically ignores about 50-60% of the plays and assumes any ball in play (non K, BB, HR) should have the same outcome for all pitchers.
Old 10-04-12, 04:31 PM
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Re: 2012-2013 MLB Off-Season Thread

Very interesting. Thanks for that info.
I remember reading about that ball-in-play theory while reading Moneyball this Summer, and the counter-argument that perhaps a pitcher who forced a lot of choppers in the infield might have better success rate that one who gives up a lot of well-hit balls to the outfield. I wondered how they rectified that.
Old 10-04-12, 05:05 PM
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Re: 2012-2013 MLB Off-Season Thread

I hate all of these stats in baseball these days. Just give me what was on the back of a baseball card when I was a kid. That's all we need.

As for the Manager of the Year, has to go to Melvin.
Old 10-04-12, 05:44 PM
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Re: 2012-2013 MLB Off-Season Thread

Originally Posted by Tarantino View Post
I hate all of these stats in baseball these days.
You don't think that a player having a .313 average with men on first and second in the 7th inning carries any significance?
Old 10-04-12, 05:46 PM
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Re: 2012-2013 MLB Off-Season Thread

Originally Posted by sleepyhead55 View Post
So Sutton got fired for complaining about the dress code, and Grace got fired for getting a dui, correct?
yeah, grace for his 2nd DUI in 15 months. Sutton, who knows. we aren't being told the whole story. organization said difference in broadcasting philosophy, whatever the fuck that means.

sounds like steve stone and bob brenly are on the short list of candidates. i'd be completely fine with either.
Old 10-04-12, 06:06 PM
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Re: 2012-2013 MLB Off-Season Thread

Rarely heard Sutton and Grace, but thought they were solid. I really like Steve Stone--doesn't he live in Arizona? I seem to remember that somehow, maybe I'm wrong. If true, perhaps that draws him there. That, an opportunity to get away from Hawk.
Old 10-04-12, 06:48 PM
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Re: 2012-2013 MLB Off-Season Thread

steve stone has a restaurant here and does live here in the off season. sutton was god-awful. truly horrible. grace was great just because he was zany and had some great stories.
Old 10-04-12, 07:15 PM
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Re: 2012-2013 MLB Off-Season Thread

Originally Posted by cardsfan111 View Post
Rarely heard Sutton and Grace, but thought they were solid. I really like Steve Stone--doesn't he live in Arizona? I seem to remember that somehow, maybe I'm wrong. If true, perhaps that draws him there. That, an opportunity to get away from Hawk.
FWIW, I've read that Stone actually likes working with Hawk. Brenly was supposed to sign an extension to stay with the Cubs broadcast team. I don't know if he signed it yet.

I read that Sutton was actually moving up the food chain at Fox and I think he was supposed to do a national before his problems cropped up.

Non-broadaster news:

Ryne Sandberg is joining the Phillies as their 3b coach next year. He's the probable successor to Manuel whenever he gets fired/or retires.
Old 10-04-12, 07:41 PM
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Re: 2012-2013 MLB Off-Season Thread

Is a major league manager really that important? How many games do you all believe he is necessary in a team winning? That is assuming he doesn't have a personality and ego that totally pisses off his players.

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