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MLB 2010-11 Offseason & Hot Stove Thread

Old 02-09-11, 09:40 AM
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Re: MLB 2010-11 Offseason & Hot Stove Thread

Originally Posted by davidh777 View Post
Sorry to interrupt the Mets debate, but I could easily see the Cubs being a player here, though I still believe Pujols will stay in St. Louis. They love to make the big free-agent splash (please no "fire Jim Hendry" trolls), and subtracting from St. Louis would be an added bonus. Whether that would be a good spend or not is the question.

Speaking of teams that like to go for the free-agent splash without the results to show for it, would the Orioles be a player, or is that not their philosophy any more? Or would Albert not even give them the time of day?
To me it's always about pitching, speed and defense and never about getting the big bomber. Of course, Pujols also bats .330 so he is more than just a big bomber and his defense is pretty darn good. That's why were talking about him - he's special. But it takes two to tango and I don't see the Chicago Cubs being a good fit for him. Seems to me that if you go to your big rival, your old fans now hate you and while your new fans are glad to have you they will still in their heart-of-hearts still think you're scum for leaving your old team. So, at best it's a win-lose proposition and I don't see why a guy like Pujols has to settle for a win-lose when he can get a win-win (get really good money and stay in St. Louis).

If I'm wrong and he just wants the biggest amount of money, I doubt it would come from Baltimore. They (like the Mets) seem to avoid the biggest free agents (not always, but for the most part) and go for smaller names hoping to find gold. And like the Mets, to say it hasn't worked would be an understatement. Whether both teams are now ready to adopt another strategy or not is anyone's guess. I'm guessing Baltimore would like to get a winner from drafted players. However, they also like selling season tickets. The problem is that even if they bait fans by going into the free agent market, I don't think the fans are dumb enough to take that bait any longer. I mean Baltimore was a once proud club ... how many years of mediocrity have those fans now suffered?
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Old 02-09-11, 10:50 AM
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Re: MLB 2010-11 Offseason & Hot Stove Thread

My gut doesn't want to get involved in any "Where will Pujols play?" scenarios, but I would think winning would also be a priority and the Orioles path to the postseason while playing in the AL East will always be an uphill battle.
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Old 02-09-11, 07:33 PM
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Re: MLB 2010-11 Offseason & Hot Stove Thread

Originally Posted by cardsfan111 View Post
My gut doesn't want to get involved in any "Where will Pujols play?" scenarios, but I would think winning would also be a priority and the Orioles path to the postseason while playing in the AL East will always be an uphill battle.
That and while they may be willing to overspend for a short period of time, I'm not sure they'd make the 8-10yr commitment that it would take to get him. They do have a lot of young pitching coming up which should allow them to be somewhat aggressive for free agents over the next few years.

I think it just comes down to 8yrs vs 10 yrs and 27-28mil vs 30mil for StL... in the end probably 8 years at 29-30mil with either a vesting or club option for a 9th and maybe 10th year (if a club option it would probably involve a large buyout say 10-15mil, somewhat like what the Phils did with Cliff Lee's 6th year)

Had the White Sox not signed both Konerko and Dunn (who will make a combined 26mil per year over the next 3 years), they may have been fringe players too. And if the Yankees had not made that ridiculous ARod extension, the number for Albert might be 32+mil/per.
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Old 02-11-11, 12:56 PM
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Re: MLB 2010-11 Offseason & Hot Stove Thread

If the Cubs are dumb enough to give Pena $10M for his .190 average and 30 bombs, then they'll at least entertain paying Pujols $30M for 10 years.
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Old 02-11-11, 01:14 PM
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Re: MLB 2010-11 Offseason & Hot Stove Thread

Originally Posted by Rob V View Post
If the Cubs are dumb enough to give Pena $10M for his .190 average and 30 bombs, then they'll at least entertain paying Pujols $30M for 10 years.
Indeed they might. But seriously, if you were Pujols, would you go to the Cubs for $30M for 10 years or would you stay with St. Louis for $27M for 8 (with incentives/options for two more)?
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Old 02-11-11, 01:36 PM
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Re: MLB 2010-11 Offseason & Hot Stove Thread

I'd stay with St. Louis so I don't turn into Lebron James. Pujols is more than St. Louis -he is marketed decently for a MLB player and has a ton of endorsements for training aids and clothing.
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Old 02-11-11, 01:57 PM
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Re: MLB 2010-11 Offseason & Hot Stove Thread

Originally Posted by davidh777 View Post
Sorry to interrupt the Mets debate, but I could easily see the Cubs being a player here, though I still believe Pujols will stay in St. Louis. They love to make the big free-agent splash (please no "fire Jim Hendry" trolls), and subtracting from St. Louis would be an added bonus. Whether that would be a good spend or not is the question.

Speaking of teams that like to go for the free-agent splash without the results to show for it, would the Orioles be a player, or is that not their philosophy any more? Or would Albert not even give them the time of day?
That's an interesting one as they have a bunch of money coming off the books after 2011. Aramais Ramirez has a 16 million dollar club option that won't be picked up. Fukudome is a FA after this year. Carlos Silva has a mutual option (I'm not really sure how those work) that has a 2 million dollar buyout.

They're still stuck with Soriano's overbloated contract and Ryan Dempster has a 14 million dollar player option in 2012. But I think they could be in good condition to be a player for Pujols if they wanted to spend the money.
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Old 02-11-11, 01:57 PM
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Re: MLB 2010-11 Offseason & Hot Stove Thread

Originally Posted by Rob V View Post
If the Cubs are dumb enough to give Pena $10M for his .190 average and 30 bombs, then they'll at least entertain paying Pujols $30M for 10 years.
It's for 1 year.

I am also tending to believe much like the Cubs believe that was an extremely down year for Pena and he still have a decent OBP, HR's and RBI's.
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Old 02-11-11, 02:09 PM
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Re: MLB 2010-11 Offseason & Hot Stove Thread

^^ I understand that, but $10M?? He hasn't exactly been trending in a certain direction and then his numbers reversed due to injury or plate protection. The guy had more HR's than singles two years ago and that year he hit a whopping .220. He played in a decent hitters park with decent players around him... he's just not good. It's not the worlds worst contract (like say, Jayson Werth)... but I believe that Pujols playing at age 37-41 will be a horrible contract for any team that signs him.

One last point - Pujols hasn't exactly been the epitome of health in his career either. Sure, he plays thru a lot but there's always some nagging back or neck injury.
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Old 02-11-11, 02:17 PM
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Re: MLB 2010-11 Offseason & Hot Stove Thread

No question Pena got a huge payout considering his numbers last year, but I think that the Cubs overspent in order to keep it to one year. Perhaps he got offers for fewer $ per but more years, but the Cubs wanted one year to protect themselves (1) in case the downward trend continues and (2) just in case Pujols hits the market. Could work out for Pena too because he might put up good numbers being in Wrigley and in a heavy RH lineup then he could get more dollars in a longer contract next year. If not, at least he has his $10MM this year.
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Old 02-11-11, 02:38 PM
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Re: MLB 2010-11 Offseason & Hot Stove Thread

I'm just bitter because the Tigers had him for roughly 4 years and he sucked. He had the most beautiful swing -- that was way too long and he rarely made contact. He goes to Boston and sucks and then to TB and rocks it for a few years before falling off again. Hell, he led the majors in HR's a few years back if I recall --- or very close.
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Old 02-11-11, 02:56 PM
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Re: MLB 2010-11 Offseason & Hot Stove Thread

Originally Posted by Rob V View Post
One last point - Pujols hasn't exactly been the epitome of health in his career either. Sure, he plays thru a lot but there's always some nagging back or neck injury.
Valid point. And one could make the case that the chance of nagging injuries increases as they get older and a little less flexible. As a 10 year man, what a club is potentially getting are 5-6 really good production years with the potential of swallowing a whole bunch of money for some mediocre years to follow. In the NL, that's a lot tougher to swallow without the DH option.
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Old 02-11-11, 03:52 PM
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Re: MLB 2010-11 Offseason & Hot Stove Thread

The Yankees should go for him, move Tex to 3rd, and make A-rod the best DH/platoon infielder in the league.
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Old 02-11-11, 04:11 PM
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Re: MLB 2010-11 Offseason & Hot Stove Thread

The Cardinals will still have an exclusive window to negotiate with him after the season is over. Anything can happen during the season and anyone that knows about Pujols knows that he has some lingering health issues. If he wants to take the chance on losing out on quite a bit of money then put the ball in his court. He gets hurt then the Cardinals could get him for less than he gets right now. It's not like he is still some spring chicken.
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Old 02-11-11, 04:23 PM
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Re: MLB 2010-11 Offseason & Hot Stove Thread

Originally Posted by Rob V View Post
One last point - Pujols hasn't exactly been the epitome of health in his career either. Sure, he plays thru a lot but there's always some nagging back or neck injury.
In his 10 years, only twice has he played less than 150 games, and he played 140+ both of those years. He's never had less than 600 PAs and 500 ABs. Kind of hard to ding a guy a being, essentially, injury prone with that kind of track record.
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Old 02-11-11, 04:26 PM
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Re: MLB 2010-11 Offseason & Hot Stove Thread

Originally Posted by starman9000 View Post
The Yankees should go for him, move Tex to 3rd, and make A-rod the best DH/platoon infielder in the league.
I can't tell whether you are joking or not ...?
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Old 02-11-11, 04:30 PM
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Re: MLB 2010-11 Offseason & Hot Stove Thread

Originally Posted by dsa_shea View Post
The Cardinals will still have an exclusive window to negotiate with him after the season is over. Anything can happen during the season and anyone that knows about Pujols knows that he has some lingering health issues. If he wants to take the chance on losing out on quite a bit of money then put the ball in his court. He gets hurt then the Cardinals could get him for less than he gets right now. It's not like he is still some spring chicken.
I would agree that there is more down-side for Pujols by waiting for fall than the Cardinals simply because I don't think Pujols' stock can rise that much.
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Old 02-11-11, 04:53 PM
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Re: MLB 2010-11 Offseason & Hot Stove Thread

Originally Posted by ctyankee View Post
Valid point. And one could make the case that the chance of nagging injuries increases as they get older and a little less flexible. As a 10 year man, what a club is potentially getting are 5-6 really good production years with the potential of swallowing a whole bunch of money for some mediocre years to follow. In the NL, that's a lot tougher to swallow without the DH option.
That's pretty much the case with Alfonso Soriano: Everyone knew he'd get a big, long contract that would outlast his prime years because he was the top FA on the market. The fact that a large part of his game was based on his legs accelerated the decline, and mediocrity set in a lot earlier than anticipated. [no anti-Hendry trolls, please]
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Old 02-11-11, 06:56 PM
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Re: MLB 2010-11 Offseason & Hot Stove Thread

It is just more in the Cardinals hands than Pujols if he decides to wait until after the season. Every year we have to hear about his elbow and how eventually it will need to be fixed. That is likely to happen sooner than later if he is getting 500-600 ABs a season. If I were Pujols I would approach them with a 7-8 year proposal at 30 a season starting this season. He would still get to be the highest paid per season and guarantee himself more than 200 million over the life of his contract. I think the economics of baseball have changed enough where players are far less likely to get 200 million dollar contracts than they were when A-Rod got his.
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Old 02-12-11, 01:33 AM
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Re: MLB 2010-11 Offseason & Hot Stove Thread

Former MLB manager Chuck Tanner passed away on Friday. Best known as the manager of the Pirates for many years, he led them to the 1979 championship. Ironically, I just bought the DVD set chronicling that WS team.
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Old 02-12-11, 03:00 PM
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Re: MLB 2010-11 Offseason & Hot Stove Thread

The Cardinals will come out looking the better of the two sides as long as they offer him the highest yearly salary in the game on a six or seven year deal. The length of contract that his side are asking for is ridiculous.

I think they are ready to let him test the waters next winter and see what a few other clubs will offer him.
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Old 02-12-11, 04:42 PM
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Re: MLB 2010-11 Offseason & Hot Stove Thread

If I were him I'd wait until the Red Sox are done gaming the luxury tax system and announce the Adrian Gonzalez extension (I don't know what the date is when the luxury tax is calculated, but Gonzalez's extension should be announced shortly after that). Even though Gonzalez is younger that would seem to set the floor for the Pujols contract.

While Pujols could get seriously injured, I think there isn't as much downside as people make it seem like... unless it is career threatening or has long term implications (back, a bad wrist injury) an injury in 2011 will likely not impact his extension that much.

The other potential value of waiting is if either the Dodgers or Mets get their finances figured out, it's another potential player.

Originally Posted by B.A. View Post
The Cardinals will come out looking the better of the two sides as long as they offer him the highest yearly salary in the game on a six or seven year deal. The length of contract that his side are asking for is ridiculous.

I think they are ready to let him test the waters next winter and see what a few other clubs will offer him.
Cliff Lee (who is older and a pitcher) was getting 6-7 year offers. Jayson Werth got a 7 year deal and he's older than Pujols. Carl Crawford who's 7 year deal people don't seem to have a problem with because he's 'young', is only a year and a half younger than Pujols (though that age gap will be 2.5 years in terms of age when the contract is signed). While 10yr/30mil seems high (and would probably lose the PR battle), I don't think looking for an 8 or even 9 year deal would be perceived that poorly in the media. I think he would rather easily get one or two 8 year offers (or more) on the open market.

Is it clear what he is looking for in terms of length? I've seen the ESPN speculation that it might take 10yrs/300mil, but is that actually coming from Pujols' side or is that ESPN turning their own speculation into a story?
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Old 02-13-11, 01:50 AM
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Re: MLB 2010-11 Offseason & Hot Stove Thread

Lance Berkman showing some enthusiasm for the Cardinals this season. Supposedly he lost about 20 pounds this offseason and he sure looks like it.

http://www.foxsportsmidwest.com/page...ZOxQfpFFvUnG5f
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Old 02-13-11, 04:12 PM
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Re: MLB 2010-11 Offseason & Hot Stove Thread

Originally Posted by cardsfan111 View Post
Former MLB manager Chuck Tanner passed away on Friday. Best known as the manager of the Pirates for many years, he led them to the 1979 championship. Ironically, I just bought the DVD set chronicling that WS team.
RIP Tanner. I remember that Pirate team well.

Originally Posted by wirefan View Post
If I were him I'd wait until the Red Sox are done gaming the luxury tax system and announce the Adrian Gonzalez extension
The Red Sox gaming the system? And complaining about the Yankees at the same time, I'm sure.

Originally Posted by dsa_shea View Post
Lance Berkman showing some enthusiasm for the Cardinals this season. Supposedly he lost about 20 pounds this offseason and he sure looks like it.
Is he actually going to play the outfield this year?

Pitchers and catchers report!
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Old 02-13-11, 05:22 PM
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Re: MLB 2010-11 Offseason & Hot Stove Thread

Pujols reportedly rejects the Cardinals offer and will continue his pursuit of that 10 year pipe dream.

http://content.usatoday.com/communit...alks-tuesday/1
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