Sports Talk Discuss all things Sports Related

Play a game with me. Hall of Famer or not?

Old 12-11-17, 11:54 AM
  #1226  
DVD Talk Legend
 
LurkerDan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: The People's Republic of Boulder
Posts: 21,916
Re: Play a game with me. Hall of Famer or not?

Originally Posted by Red Hood View Post
I'm glad they did and that Ted Simmons was close behind. Does anyone know what happens to the people in this ballot that didn't make it? Do they rollover for next time or are they out of running for good? I feel like Simmons and Marvin Miller should have made it or should make it in the future.
Did they release voting results? Haven't seen those. I believe that they can be considered the next time around, but that won't be next year, there is a rotating set of eras/categories, I believe, so these guys won't be considered for at least a couple/few years (don't recall the rotation).
LurkerDan is offline  
Old 12-11-17, 12:07 PM
  #1227  
DVD Talk Legend
 
Cardsfan111's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Indiana
Posts: 17,176
Re: Play a game with me. Hall of Famer or not?

Here's what I found:

Morris: 14
Trammell: 13
Simmons: 11
Miller: 7
Garvey, John, Mattingly, Murphy, Parker, Tiant: fewer than 7

There were 16 voters with 12 votes needed for election. Each voter could vote for 4 candidates, I believe.

Happy for Trammell. Never felt Morris was a HOFer. Sad for Simmons.

Marvin Miller won't have any vocal supporters since he has passed away and since he wasn't a player, he doesn't have the support of a loyal fan base, but it's ridiculous that he wasn't voted in.
Cardsfan111 is offline  
Old 12-11-17, 01:28 PM
  #1228  
DVD Talk Special Edition
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 1,376
Re: Play a game with me. Hall of Famer or not?

I imagine these committees will be voting in players on a regular basis now, especially the more current players. Guys like Brett, Carew, Eckersley, Sutton, Winfield and Yount played with and/or against all of these guys and there is pride in saying you played against hall of fame players. Probably would have seen even more elected if there wasn't the 4 person limit.
BrewCrew is offline  
Old 12-11-17, 01:49 PM
  #1229  
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
 
B5Erik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Southern California
Posts: 8,952
Re: Play a game with me. Hall of Famer or not?

Garvey not being in the HOF is a joke. He was great both offensively and defensively. He was at least as good as Tony Perez...
B5Erik is offline  
Old 12-11-17, 01:57 PM
  #1230  
DVD Talk Legend
 
LurkerDan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: The People's Republic of Boulder
Posts: 21,916
Re: Play a game with me. Hall of Famer or not?

Originally Posted by B5Erik View Post
Garvey not being in the HOF is a joke. He was great both offensively and defensively. He was at least as good as Tony Perez...
that's an argument against Perez, not for Garvey. Being as good as one of the worst players of the modern era to be elected is hardly compelling.
LurkerDan is offline  
Old 12-11-17, 02:10 PM
  #1231  
DVD Talk Hero
 
davidh777's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Home of 2013 NFL champion Seahawks
Posts: 41,380
Re: Play a game with me. Hall of Famer or not?

Discussed earlier in the thread, but Garvey is the epitome of Very Good for me.
davidh777 is offline  
Old 12-11-17, 02:43 PM
  #1232  
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
 
BearFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: Flower Mound, TX
Posts: 8,026
Re: Play a game with me. Hall of Famer or not?

Originally Posted by davidh777 View Post
Discussed earlier in the thread, but Garvey is the epitome of Very Good for me.
Pretty much ... Really good player, but not a hall of famer
BearFan is offline  
Old 12-11-17, 03:32 PM
  #1233  
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
 
B5Erik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Southern California
Posts: 8,952
Re: Play a game with me. Hall of Famer or not?

Originally Posted by LurkerDan View Post
that's an argument against Perez, not for Garvey. Being as good as one of the worst players of the modern era to be elected is hardly compelling.
An argument could easily be made that Garvey was better than Perez, and since Perez IS already in Garvey Should be, too. Unless they take Perez out...
B5Erik is offline  
Old 12-11-17, 03:50 PM
  #1234  
DVD Talk Legend
 
LurkerDan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: The People's Republic of Boulder
Posts: 21,916
Re: Play a game with me. Hall of Famer or not?

Originally Posted by B5Erik View Post
An argument could easily be made that Garvey was better than Perez, and since Perez IS already in Garvey Should be, too. Unless they take Perez out...
it doesn't work that way. If that were the rule, then every time they made a bad choice, they would have to follow up that bad choice with more bad choices.

Perez is possibly the worst pick through regular voting in the last 25 years. And you want to use him as the baseline for why Garvey should be in? Fuck that.

And FTR, Garvey has a lower OPS+ (117 to 122) and is a full 16 WAR below Perez (and lower in all the traditional counting stats). So yeah, you can go ahead and make the argument that he is better than Perez (who probably doesn't belong in the hall) but you'd be wrong.
LurkerDan is offline  
Old 12-11-17, 03:54 PM
  #1235  
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
 
B5Erik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Southern California
Posts: 8,952
Re: Play a game with me. Hall of Famer or not?

Originally Posted by LurkerDan View Post
it doesn't work that way. If that were the rule, then every time they made a bad choice, they would have to follow up that bad choice with more bad choices.

Perez is possibly the worst pick through regular voting in the last 25 years. And you want to use him as the baseline for why Garvey should be in? Fuck that.

And FTR, Garvey has a lower OPS+ (117 to 122) and is a full 16 WAR below Perez (and lower in all the traditional counting stats). So yeah, you can go ahead and make the argument that he is better than Perez (who probably doesn't belong in the hall) but you'd be wrong.
Look at Gold Gloves and MVP's...
B5Erik is offline  
Old 12-12-17, 11:26 AM
  #1236  
DVD Talk Legend
 
LurkerDan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: The People's Republic of Boulder
Posts: 21,916
Re: Play a game with me. Hall of Famer or not?

Originally Posted by B5Erik View Post
Look at Gold Gloves and MVP's...
So what? FWIW, advanced stats show Garvey as absolutely not deserving of a GG, and in fact Perez looks better defensively over their career. He won an MVP, great. Perez won 2 titles, Garvey won one, if we're talking about things that don't have a lot of meaning.

And as for that MVP, do you know that he didn't really deserve it? Wasn't even in the top ten in WAR that year. Mike Schmidt got robbed.

Garvey .312 .342 .469 (OPS+ 130); 23 HRs, 111 RBI, 95 R, gold glove (but -1 dWAR )
Schmidt .282 .395 .546 (OPS+ 158); 36 HR, 116 RBI, 108 R, no gold glove (but 2.4 dWar). Also 23 SB.

Yeah, but Steve Garvey deserves getting into the HoF because he won an MVP.

Oh, I just realized, you are a Padres fan, no wonder you have an irrational Garvey love.
LurkerDan is offline  
Old 12-12-17, 11:49 AM
  #1237  
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
 
B5Erik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Southern California
Posts: 8,952
Re: Play a game with me. Hall of Famer or not?

Originally Posted by LurkerDan View Post
So what? FWIW, advanced stats show Garvey as absolutely not deserving of a GG, and in fact Perez looks better defensively over their career. He won an MVP, great. Perez won 2 titles, Garvey won one, if we're talking about things that don't have a lot of meaning.

And as for that MVP, do you know that he didn't really deserve it? Wasn't even in the top ten in WAR that year. Mike Schmidt got robbed.

Garvey .312 .342 .469 (OPS+ 130); 23 HRs, 111 RBI, 95 R, gold glove (but -1 dWAR )
Schmidt .282 .395 .546 (OPS+ 158); 36 HR, 116 RBI, 108 R, no gold glove (but 2.4 dWar). Also 23 SB.

Yeah, but Steve Garvey deserves getting into the HoF because he won an MVP.

Oh, I just realized, you are a Padres fan, no wonder you have an irrational Garvey love.
Numbers & stats don't tell the complete story. Garvey was a great defensive player, a top notch offensive player, and a team leader.

Whether or not you think he deserved that MVP the people who were actually around and following baseball daily at that time thought he deserved it. History has a way of distorting reality sometimes. You can get sucked into the stat machine and try and analyze it, but that takes out ALL of the intangibles - the stuff that takes a player from good to great.

Garvey - 1974 NL MVP; NLCS MVP 1978 & 1984; 10 Time All-Star; 4 Time Gold Glove Winner; All Time NL Consecutive Games Played Record (1,207); Lifetime Batting Average .294; 2,599 Hits; 272 Home Runs; 1,308 RBI. One of the greatest Walk-Off, Game Winning Home Runs in NLCS history (1984), and 1981 Roberto Clemente Award winner, too!

That is a solid HOF resume, but like I said, the stats don't tell the whole story. He was a great all around player. He wasn't a great offensive player who was a defensive liability (like many great offensive players have been), he wasn't a great defensive player who couldn't hit - he excelled in every aspect of the game and he was a team leader.

I watched him play with the Dodgers and the Padres. He was always one of the 2 or 3 best players on the field (even when there were teams loaded with stars in the game). Quite often he was the best player in the game. He was THE benchmark for First Basemen from 1974-1984.

Revisionist history has downplayed his achievements because he rubbed writers the wrong way at the end of his career and beacuse they viewed him as a hypocrite due to his personal life drama. That's the main reason he wasn't voted in when he was first eligible. A lot of writers disliked Garvey personally and that was reflected in their votes.
B5Erik is offline  
Old 12-12-17, 05:09 PM
  #1238  
DVD Talk Legend
 
LurkerDan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: The People's Republic of Boulder
Posts: 21,916
Re: Play a game with me. Hall of Famer or not?

Devin Hester retires. Does he have any shot at the HoF?

Never been a better return man in NFL history. Is that enough?
LurkerDan is offline  
Old 12-12-17, 05:19 PM
  #1239  
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
 
BearFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: Flower Mound, TX
Posts: 8,026
Re: Play a game with me. Hall of Famer or not?

Originally Posted by LurkerDan View Post
Devin Hester retires. Does he have any shot at the HoF?

Never been a better return man in NFL history. Is that enough?
If they put in a return guy .. he would be it. But I just do not see a pure returner (and a so-so at best WR) getting in.

As a Bears fan, the guy was fun as hell to watch for sure. He had so much value for field position, so many shanks and incredibly short punts going out of bounds from teams trying to kick away from him beyond any of his actual return yards.
BearFan is offline  
Old 12-13-17, 10:30 AM
  #1240  
DVD Talk Legend
 
LurkerDan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: The People's Republic of Boulder
Posts: 21,916
Re: Play a game with me. Hall of Famer or not?

Originally Posted by BearFan View Post
If they put in a return guy .. he would be it. But I just do not see a pure returner (and a so-so at best WR) getting in.

As a Bears fan, the guy was fun as hell to watch for sure. He had so much value for field position, so many shanks and incredibly short punts going out of bounds from teams trying to kick away from him beyond any of his actual return yards.
Agree, he had way more impact than just his return stats. I wonder if they could do some kind of advanced stats about punt averages where he was back to receive.

I was always amazed that teams couldn't make use of him more on offense, kind of like how Tyreek Hill is used for the Chiefs now.
LurkerDan is offline  
Old 12-13-17, 11:28 AM
  #1241  
DVD Talk Hero
 
davidh777's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Home of 2013 NFL champion Seahawks
Posts: 41,380
Re: Play a game with me. Hall of Famer or not?

Right, it was crazy how teams would scheme against Hester out of pure fear. He can take some comfort in the fact that Ray Guy finally got in.

Last edited by davidh777; 12-13-17 at 02:02 PM.
davidh777 is offline  
Old 12-13-17, 11:47 AM
  #1242  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: In the Singularity of a Black Hole
Posts: 471
Re: Play a game with me. Hall of Famer or not?

Kenshiro is offline  
Old 12-13-17, 01:57 PM
  #1243  
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
 
d2cheer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 9,565
Re: Play a game with me. Hall of Famer or not?

I think Hester eventually gets in. No one will do what he did ever again.
d2cheer is online now  
Old 12-13-17, 02:20 PM
  #1244  
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
 
BearFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: Flower Mound, TX
Posts: 8,026
Re: Play a game with me. Hall of Famer or not?

Originally Posted by d2cheer View Post
I think Hester eventually gets in. No one will do what he did ever again.
Kinda hoping Cohen will
BearFan is offline  
Old 01-05-18, 04:41 PM
  #1245  
DVD Talk Hero
 
davidh777's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Home of 2013 NFL champion Seahawks
Posts: 41,380
Re: Play a game with me. Hall of Famer or not?

I didn't want to ask this question right after he was dumped, but what about Dusty Baker if he doesn't get another job? 19 years as a player, 1863-1636 (.532, 14th-most wins all-time) as a manager, three-time Manager of the Year, but never won the big one (23-32 in the postseason) and had a number of notable collapses with talented teams.

I'm guessing no.
davidh777 is offline  
Old 01-05-18, 04:49 PM
  #1246  
DVD Talk Hero
 
davidh777's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Home of 2013 NFL champion Seahawks
Posts: 41,380
Re: Play a game with me. Hall of Famer or not?

Originally Posted by Kenshiro View Post
Who from this list will be inducted this year?

Here's the 2018 Modern-Era Finalists with their positions, years and teams:


2018 NFL Hall Of Fame Finalists (and poll)
davidh777 is offline  
Old 01-06-18, 06:21 PM
  #1247  
DVD Talk Legend
 
PhantomStranger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: The Phantom Zone
Posts: 21,739
Re: Play a game with me. Hall of Famer or not?

Originally Posted by davidh777 View Post
I didn't want to ask this question right after he was dumped, but what about Dusty Baker if he doesn't get another job? 19 years as a player, 1863-1636 (.532, 14th-most wins all-time) as a manager, three-time Manager of the Year, but never won the big one (23-32 in the postseason) and had a number of notable collapses with talented teams.

I'm guessing no.
I think never winning a World Series ring as a manager costs him the Hall of Fame. I always thought he was a good regular season manager that was outwitted fairly often in the playoffs.
PhantomStranger is offline  
Old 01-06-18, 08:24 PM
  #1248  
DVD Talk Hero
 
Decker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Vegas, Baby!
Posts: 43,395
Re: Play a game with me. Hall of Famer or not?

Originally Posted by PhantomStranger View Post
I think never winning a World Series ring as a manager costs him the Hall of Fame. I always thought he was a good regular season manager that was outwitted fairly often in the playoffs.
Has any manager without a single WS win ever been inducted?
Decker is offline  
Old 01-07-18, 03:06 PM
  #1249  
DVD Talk Legend
 
PhantomStranger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: The Phantom Zone
Posts: 21,739
Re: Play a game with me. Hall of Famer or not?

Originally Posted by Decker View Post
Has any manager without a single WS win ever been inducted?
I was going to say Gene Mauch but I just checked and he's not in the Hall of Fame. Gene Mauch is the winningest manager of all time never to win a pennant.
PhantomStranger is offline  
Old 01-07-18, 03:24 PM
  #1250  
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: US
Posts: 9,625
Re: Play a game with me. Hall of Famer or not?

Originally Posted by d2cheer View Post
I think Hester eventually gets in. No one will do what he did ever again.
doubtful. Same reason there are few kickers and punters in there. If they had a specialist position then maybe, but he was average at best as WR. So teams had to scheme against him a few times a game to keep the ball out of his hands, that's not hall worthy.
Dave99 is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.