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Old 05-04-17, 06:47 PM   #1176
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Re: Play a game with me. Hall of Famer or not?

That was their third first round pick that year too. I don't even remember who Kedrick Brown was.
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Old 05-04-17, 06:52 PM   #1177
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Re: Play a game with me. Hall of Famer or not?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fujishig View Post
That was their third first round pick that year too. I don't even remember who Kedrick Brown was.
I think he was one of those small-school workout-warrior types. Joe Johnson was actually worth the pick, of course, but they dumped him for their playoff run.
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Old 05-05-17, 01:49 PM   #1178
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Re: Play a game with me. Hall of Famer or not?

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Originally Posted by LurkerDan View Post
Manu is certain to retire too. BB reference only has him at 20%, but he is a lock as well. His international success puts him over the top.
Yep
Manu was the best player on the Argentina which won gold in 2004 and beat Team Usa . He would have made the Basketball Hall Of Fame if he retired 12 years ago
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Old 05-10-17, 04:08 PM   #1179
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Re: Play a game with me. Hall of Famer or not?

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Originally Posted by LurkerDan View Post
Manu is certain to retire too. BB reference only has him at 20%, but he is a lock as well. His international success puts him over the top.
Agree, Manu and Tony are locks.
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Old 05-10-17, 05:17 PM   #1180
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Re: Play a game with me. Hall of Famer or not?

was just thinking how this might be the most interesting thread in the forum. Props to the OP for starting it, even if you haven't checked in on it in over 7 years.
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Old 05-22-17, 06:24 PM   #1181
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Re: Play a game with me. Hall of Famer or not?

a neat little article on Manu: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features...i-nba-unicorn/
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Old 06-28-17, 11:51 AM   #1182
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Re: Play a game with me. Hall of Famer or not?

Was reading an article on Adrián Beltré, the numbers he's amassed over his career are very good. He just hit his 450th home run, he's less than 30 hits away from 3,000.

Notable accomplishments during his career.

4 time All Star, 5 time Gold Glove winner, 4 time Silver Slugger winner, no MVP awards (finished 2nd his last season with the Dodgers), never a part of a World Championship team (he was on the Rangers squad that lost to the Cardinals in that wonderful 2011 Fall Classic.)

To me he seems like more of a stat compiler, but 3K career hits means induction unless some sort of controversy surrounds the player.
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Old 06-28-17, 12:06 PM   #1183
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Re: Play a game with me. Hall of Famer or not?

I think Beltre is a HOFer. This is hardly a guy that has hung around longer than he's needed to so the stats over 20 years is pretty impressive to me. Perennial gold glover with a bunch of really great years at the plate. There were some bad years -- it never worked out for him in Seattle -- but he completely turned it back around after going to the Rangers.
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Old 06-28-17, 12:49 PM   #1184
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Re: Play a game with me. Hall of Famer or not?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenshiro View Post
Was reading an article on Adrián Beltré, the numbers he's amassed over his career are very good. He just hit his 450th home run, he's less than 30 hits away from 3,000.

Notable accomplishments during his career.

4 time All Star, 5 time Gold Glove winner, 4 time Silver Slugger winner, no MVP awards (finished 2nd his last season with the Dodgers), never a part of a World Championship team (he was on the Rangers squad that lost to the Cardinals in that wonderful 2011 Fall Classic.)

To me he seems like more of a stat compiler, but 3K career hits means induction unless some sort of controversy surrounds the player.
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Originally Posted by Goat3001 View Post
I think Beltre is a HOFer. This is hardly a guy that has hung around longer than he's needed to so the stats over 20 years is pretty impressive to me. Perennial gold glover with a bunch of really great years at the plate. There were some bad years -- it never worked out for him in Seattle -- but he completely turned it back around after going to the Rangers.
I can see how he looks like a stat compiler, but in reality I think he's been very underrated and underappreciated for much of his career. I think he's a sure fire HoFer, and deserves to be.
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Old 06-28-17, 01:55 PM   #1185
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Re: Play a game with me. Hall of Famer or not?

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Originally Posted by LurkerDan View Post
I can see how he looks like a stat compiler, but in reality I think he's been very underrated and underappreciated for much of his career. I think he's a sure fire HoFer, and deserves to be.
Agreed. His career has a weird arc to it. Early on, it looked like he was going to be a solid-but-not-great player until he had that monster 2004 (triple crown line of 48/121/0.334). Then he "cashed in" on that season going to the Mariners where he went back right to where he was before 2004. But then he had a career resurgence with Boston and Texas in his 30s, regularly cranking out All-Star caliber seasons every year with 30/100/0.300 hitting and continued Gold Glove level defense.

Who knows what was going on in 2004. Guys just have those fluky crazy good seasons. But outside of that, he was underrated in LA and Seattle because he was playing in bad parks for hitting. Then he finally got to play in good parks for hitting and all of his hitting numbers jumped up. But he was always a good hitter for his position. And he was always a great defensive player. If you put any value in WAR, he ranks second all-time in defensive WAR for third basemen (behind only Brooks Robinson) and 13th all-time for all positions. And in overall WAR for third basemen, he's 4th (behind Schmidt, Eddie Matthews, and Boggs ... and looks likely to finish only behind Schmidt when all is said and done).

The Hall of Fame is surprisingly light on Third Basemen. Barring late-career steroid allegations Beltre is a no-brainer, even if his career ended very soon.
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Old 06-28-17, 02:44 PM   #1186
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Re: Play a game with me. Hall of Famer or not?

Beltre is definitely HOF worthy. Amazing defense and a very consistent hitter with power.

Two fun commercials produced during his Mariner years focusing on his defense.



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Old 06-28-17, 03:26 PM   #1187
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Re: Play a game with me. Hall of Famer or not?

Beltre is a HOFer. He has an odd career arc. Outside of that one spectacular Dodgers season, he's been better in his 30s than his 20s. Whatever happened, he became a consistently better hitter in Texas.
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Old 06-28-17, 03:50 PM   #1188
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Re: Play a game with me. Hall of Famer or not?

Beltre is a compiler but I say that in a positive way. He never makes the HOF if he declines like most players in their 30's and it looked that way his last year in Seattle in 2009. After going to Boston in 2010 until now he has a slash line of 310/359/522 to go along with 200 HR and over 1200 hits. That is very impressive and not many players can do that into their 30's.
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Old 06-28-17, 04:08 PM   #1189
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Re: Play a game with me. Hall of Famer or not?

As chance would have it, David Schoenfield at ESPN talked about Adrian Beltre today and how to assess his career:

Quote:
At some point, Adrian Beltre will no longer be good at playing baseball. That time is not yet here, and for that we should all be thankful. Now 38 years old, Beltre missed most of the first two months with a calf injury, and, at his age, any significant injury makes you wonder if that's the one that will start his decline.

For now, it appears Beltre remains a young 38, just as he was a young 37 in 2016. In 24 games since returning from the DL, he's hitting .303/.373/.562. And in the ninth inning Tuesday, he crushed a Cody Allen high heater to give the Texas Rangers a 2-1 victory over the Cleveland Indians.

That was Beltre's 450th home run, breaking a tie with Jeff Bagwell and Vladimir Guerrero for 39th on the all-time list. He's now just 33 hits away from 3,000, so he stands a reasonable chance of becoming just the sixth player to reach 3,000 hits and 500 home runs (Hank Aaron, Willie Mays, Alex Rodriguez, Rafael Palmeiro, Eddie Murray).

A future Hall of Famer, Beltre has had a remarkable career in many ways, one full of twists and turns. He had that monster season with the Los Angeles Dodgers in 2004 when he hit 48 home runs, spent five years in obscurity with some bad Seattle Mariners teams, spent a season in Boston and then became a legend with the Rangers. As his career progressed, he remained largely unchanged as a hitter, one who was always aggressive but skilled enough to still do damage when chasing pitches out of the zone. In fact, he set a career-high walk rate in his first full season in the majors. That, I would suspect, is an unusual career path.

Instead, he has compensated by striking out less, even as strikeouts across the league have reached new records every season. He topped 100 strikeouts five times earlier in his career, but last year fanned just 66 times in 640 plate appearances. This year, he has 10 walks and 11 strikeouts. Beltre's approach wouldn't work for everyone, but it works for him, and his contact ability is sorely missed from so many others in today's game.

Here's a question: Is Beltre the best player to never win an MVP award? The modern BBWAA MVP awards began in 1931. Since that season, Beltre ranks 19th among position players in WAR at 90.9 (entering Tuesday's game). Only three of the 18 players with more WAR failed to win MVP honors, curiously two of them also third basemen: Eddie Mathews (96.2), Al Kaline (92.3) and Wade Boggs (91.1). Beltre will pass Kaline and Boggs in WAR this season.

To be fair, he has never deserved an MVP award. Beltre's best season was 2004, when he ranked second among NL position players with 9.5 WAR and also finished second in the MVP voting, both to Barry Bonds. His only other top-five MVP finish was in 2012 with the Rangers, when he finished third, after also ranking third in WAR. He has never been the best player in the league, but he has consistently been one of the 10 best. He's to be appreciated for his consistency, his durability, his defense and, of course, that head that he doesn't like to be touched.
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Old 07-06-17, 09:16 AM   #1190
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Re: Play a game with me. Hall of Famer or not?

Yes, Hall of Famer Why Not
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Old 07-06-17, 09:35 AM   #1191
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Re: Play a game with me. Hall of Famer or not?

I agree that Beltre is a stat compiler. I also do not believe in "benchmarks" for induction (like 3k hits). Honestly I won't cry about if he gets in but I think he's more deserving of the Hall of the Very Good.
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Old 11-06-17, 03:40 PM   #1192
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Re: Play a game with me. Hall of Famer or not?

This 10 Modern Era players will get another shot at the Baseball Hall of Fame under the new and revised committees.

• Steve Garvey
• Tommy John
• Don Mattingly
• Marvin Miller
• Jack Morris
• Dale Murphy
• Dave Parker
• Ted Simmons
• Luis Tiant
• Alan Trammell

https://sports.yahoo.com/let-debate-...194859252.html

Interesting to see who goes in and if it breaks the flood of the Hall of Very Good players going to the HOF. I feel that Jack Morris deserves to be in for sure
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Old 11-06-17, 03:46 PM   #1193
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Re: Play a game with me. Hall of Famer or not?

* Morris definitely.
* Garvey and Murphy, I think so.
* John... hell, if nothing else he should go in for having that surgery named after him.
* Maybe Trammell and/or Parker.
* That's about it.
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Old 11-06-17, 03:54 PM   #1194
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Re: Play a game with me. Hall of Famer or not?

Morris, Trammell, and Miller for me. Garvey feels like the definition of Very Good, a deserving All-Star who may have been the best player at his position in his league for a while, maybe. Murphy, Parker, and Mattingly may have been the best players in their leagues, but for too short a time.
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Old 11-06-17, 04:06 PM   #1195
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Re: Play a game with me. Hall of Famer or not?

None of these guys.

For example, I liked Morris, but his WAR was only above 5 for three years meaning that he had only 3 All-Star worthy years. That ain't even close enough for meaningful consideration. Luis Tiant had twice that number, but he had too many mediocre years as well.
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Old 11-06-17, 04:07 PM   #1196
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Re: Play a game with me. Hall of Famer or not?

Marvin Miller 100% and Trammell small yes

Jack Morris should be the Poster Child of Hall Of Above Average,he is also the perfect example of wins being an overrated stat.
Anyone besides Miller or Trammel get in from that list they would definitely have a case for being in the bottom 2% of the HOF.
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Old 11-06-17, 04:27 PM   #1197
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Re: Play a game with me. Hall of Famer or not?

I don't know much about Marvin Miller at all. Somebody make his case for me, please

I'm 100% on Morris, 90% on Trammell. I'd be okay with Garvey and Murphy. Both were pretty damn good for a long time. I wouldn't cry if neither made it though.
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Old 11-06-17, 05:15 PM   #1198
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Re: Play a game with me. Hall of Famer or not?

Trammell over all of them. He deserves it.

Marvin Miller is also a good call.

Ted Simmons and Tommy John, maybe. But really, all of those guys are very good, but not great.
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Old 11-06-17, 06:38 PM   #1199
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Re: Play a game with me. Hall of Famer or not?

I'll be the guy to make a push for Ted Simmons. He had a strong HOF case when he retired and it's absolutely ludicrous that he received 3.7% of the vote and was promptly dropped from consideration.

I know some of these are "traditional" stats, but Simmons ranked first in hits as a catcher when he retired (now behind Ivan Rodriguez). He's 2nd in catcher's rankings in RBI behind Yogi Berra, 6th in runs scored and the list could go on and on. An 8-time all star, he received MVP votes in 7 different seasons. He was fantastic from 1971-1983, so it's not as if he didn't sustain greatness for a long enough period of time. In fact, it's the years after '83 that perhaps hurt his cause since he declined sharply after that. He's 11th in WAR as a catcher and that's with contributing a negative WAR over the last handful of seasons.
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Old 11-06-17, 11:00 PM   #1200
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Re: Play a game with me. Hall of Famer or not?

I actually think Simmons should go in too. I never understood why he received so few votes, but it seems that he played behind the shadows of Johnny Bench, Carlton Fisk and Thurman Munson.
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