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2006 NBA Finals - Mavericks vs. Heat

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2006 NBA Finals - Mavericks vs. Heat

Old 06-21-06, 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Ginwen
I kind of understand people hating Payton since he can be annoying as hell. But he was a really good player, he always played his hardest, almost never misses a game due to injury (even when he is injured he tends to play, in 16 years I think he missed 7 games due to injury) and I believe he cares more about winning than money, all of which to me are positives. So I'm really glad to see him get this, even if he wasn't the main man.
Well said.

When the Sonics drafted Payton, something in me was screaming "Brian Bosworth," but he won me over because he played his heart out. He also worked on improving his game like developing the left-handed shot that he hit late in game 5.

Congrats, Gary.
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Old 06-21-06, 05:26 PM
  #827  
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This is not exactly what I heard on the radio re: the MGM Grand 2006/2007 champions, but this is pretty close. I find it odd that Detroit is so highly rated with their coaching issues. Interesting that Houston is up there as well.

http://www.playersonly.com/lines/index.php?sport=524

Detroit Pistons 4-1

San Antonio Spurs 4-1

Phoenix Suns 5-1

Dallas Mavericks 5-1

Miami Heat 5-1

New Jersey Nets 12-1

Cleveland Cavaliers 20-1

Houston Rockets 20-1

Sacramento Kings 20-1

Memphis Grizzlies 35-1
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Old 06-21-06, 07:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Kerborus
Yes, Shaq can carry any team to the NBA Finals. Even the Bobcats. This is the 3rd team he brought to the finals and NO, those teams don't go without him being there and with an 'average' center in his place.


Using that logic, if I were to get Shaq to play for a YMCA team, then he could get them to the NBA finals.

And I didn't say that all of those Finals teams that Shaq was on get there without him. I said that this Miami team has a shot to get there if you replace Shaq with an average center, whereas Miami has no chance if D-Wade is replaced with an average 2 guard. The 2006 Shaq is not the same force as the 2000 one-Fred-Hickman-vote-short-of-unanimous-league-MVP Shaq. The distance between him and an average NBA center isn't nearly as great as it once was. In contrast, Wade is an elite/superstar player who is at or approaching the prime of his career, and is arguably the best player in the league at this point and time based on his playoff performances. He is the biggest reason that Miami won the series. Shaq is still a force and definitely can have spurts where he can still control a game. But he is past the days where he could single-handedly carry a team to the Finals (and I would argue that he has never really done that at any point in his career, but that's not the relevant issue).

I know my statements are a little more nuanced than the platitudes you espouse, but you really should read more carefully before you reply.

Last edited by magicmanej; 06-21-06 at 07:20 PM.
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Old 06-21-06, 08:14 PM
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Wade was easily more important to the Heat making and winning the NBA Finals this year then Shaq. I'd hardly phrase the Heat's success this year by saying that Shaq "brought them" to the finals.
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Old 06-21-06, 09:10 PM
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Originally Posted by fumanstan
Wade was easily more important to the Heat making and winning the NBA Finals this year then Shaq. I'd hardly phrase the Heat's success this year by saying that Shaq "brought them" to the finals.
Well as a Mavs fan I'll say this,

I don't think Miami gets to the finals w/o Shaq. I think you can safely say that the Mavs have an overall better team then Miami. However, it was the veteran leadership, veteran players that made the difference in the series. Yes, yes, Wade got super hot. However it was very timely shot by GP, valuable minutes by Zo and the DEFENSE of Shaq that made the difference in crunch time.

I'll agree that Shaq is only HALF a Shaq now. But he brings other things to the table now then his offense. I have never seen Shaq move out as much on the defense and help with the pick and roll as he did in this series. And hell he still takes up have the lane just standing there!

IMHO, while I understood why Dallas had to let Nash go (and overall, I'm ok with it), I think the loss of Finely really hurt them in the finals. They needed one or two more savvy vets to help carry them when they got down. Miami had that.

Dallas focused so much on how to beat San Antonio I really don't think they thought much ahead of that. That beating San Antonio WAS their championship. Heck, they often didn't look that good against the undermanned Suns. And while they won games 1 & 2 did they really look that good doing it? And if they would have had just one more solid Vet, it might have given them the killer instinct to knock out Miami in game 3 when they had the chance.
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Old 06-22-06, 12:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Sdallnct
Hey...now...what was that for? I'm a true fan. Yea I missed a game. I've been stuck in a hotel for several weeks and had a chance to get out and get some air. My plan was to have a drink or two and watch the 2nd half. But enjoyed the weather so much, didn't happen.

The only reason I said I didn't see a minute of the game was to qualify why I wasn't going to comment on the game itself. I had already "heard" a lot of crap and stuff, but since I didn't see the game 1st hand, I wasn't going to comment.

Beside, I agree AS A MFFL, we should have won game 3. Dallas has done that before. We haven't truely learned the "knock out blow". Also, while I do think the refs were terrible, I think the Dallas offense was terrible in the entire series. If you told me Dallas would only score 100 points in one game and that was OT, I would have said Dallas would get swept 4-0. To win Dallas needed to score about 108 PPG. And that is something they can easily do. While I think the refs do need a looking at, if Dallas had scored anywhere near their season average of points, it would have never come down to that.
Sorry dude...didn't mean to rub you the wrong way or question your fanhood. I was just pointing out the humor in saying that you didn't watch a minute of the game and then the next poster calls you a real fan. I got a kick out of it.
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Old 06-22-06, 01:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Michael Ballack
It's sickening watching Riley, Mourning, Payton, and Walker get a championship, but I'm happy for Shaq. Kobe never won a thing without Shaq now. While Wade was the MVP, the Heat wouldn't have made it past the first round without Shaq. The whole defensive scheme would change and teams would double and triple team Wade just like Kobe. When Shaq retires the Heat will probablly be like the current Lakers, but with Wade not as selfish as Kobe. Watch out Heat, my Bulls are coming for your next year!!!!
Kobe's 27, Shaq's what 34? He has alot of time left, and will win another title, with the Lakers or without them.
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Old 06-22-06, 02:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Josh Hinkle
Point is that Kobe is a cocky prick and wanted to prove that he could win a title without Shaq. Shaq never expressed similar sentiments that I heard, and often deferred credit to Kobe, just as he did Wade last night.

As such, I'm happy to see that Kobe sat at home last year, while Shaq went to the conference finals, and sat home after the first round this year (and blowing a 3-1 lead no less) while Shaq has his 4th ring.

Shaq= wants to win championships more than anything else.
Kobe= cares more about his numbers and would rather win a championship on his "own" rather than have kept playing with Shaq or another dominant player.
Kobe's not like that anymore. Even Phil Jackson said he matured, and Phil was his biggest critic. Shaq has said numerous times he didn't need Kobe, but apparently he needed Wade. No Wade, no title, no Kobe, no titles in LA. Shaq can't win a title by himself, neither can Kobe.
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Old 06-22-06, 02:03 AM
  #834  
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Originally Posted by raven56706
congrats heat.... Shaq 1- Kobe 0
Wouldn't that be Shaq 4, Kobe 3?
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Old 06-22-06, 02:11 AM
  #835  
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Originally Posted by Kerborus
No question those guys helped - one player doesn't win alone. But c'mon, Phil Jackson wasn't on the court and now Shaq has played in 6 finals with three different coaches. Was Riley the reason Shaq won this one? Probably not. Was Wade? Sure, but again, Wade never gets there without Shaq on his team. If people don't understand what Shaq's mere presence does on both offense and defense, then I can't help them understand that he is the best player in the game even in the twilight of his career.

Whose to say that Shaq wouldn't have won a title if Harris had stayed another year? There's just no saying 'it was due to this one thing'. Bottom line, SG's come and go, and Shaq gets to and wins titles with or without Kobe, Penny or Wade. He is the reason, not them.
Shaq's not the best player in the game. Wade is one of the best, but he's no Kobe (insert rape joke here). I think maybe LeBron might be the best in the game.

Take the Lakers-Pistons Finals from a few years ago. Shaq had his 20-10 performances in all 5 games. Kobe was smothered by the terrific Pistons D, and the Lakers were done for. If Shaq was so good, why didn't he take advantage of the triple teams on Kobe, and score 40 a night? The Lakers should have won that series.
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Old 06-22-06, 02:16 AM
  #836  
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A quote from a Heat fan

"They said we were going to get sweeped. We won four straight. We're the NBA champions now. Welcome to Miami," said David Lewis, 19, from Fort Lauderdale.
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Old 06-22-06, 02:31 AM
  #837  
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Originally Posted by Sdallnct
Dallas focused so much on how to beat San Antonio I really don't think they thought much ahead of that. That beating San Antonio WAS their championship.
Yeah and the Spurs almost won the series down 3-1 they came storming back and lost in OT in that game 7. You seem like a real Mavs fan so you better enjoy it while it lasts I think the Mavs will have a much harder time if they meet up with the Spurs of beating them again in 2007. I wouldn't want to look into the eyes of #21 Tim Duncan or Manu Ginobili if I was the Mavs, they will be ready to stick it to the Mavs. Had the Mavs won it all I think they would have had a little edge on the Spurs, now they don't.

The Spurs imo are still the team to beat again out West again. They still have a pretty darn good ballclub. Nothing against the Mavs, it's just the history the Spurs have in the West the last few years.
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Old 06-22-06, 05:28 AM
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Originally Posted by dvd_luver
Yeah and the Spurs almost won the series down 3-1 they came storming back and lost in OT in that game 7. You seem like a real Mavs fan so you better enjoy it while it lasts I think the Mavs will have a much harder time if they meet up with the Spurs of beating them again in 2007. I wouldn't want to look into the eyes of #21 Tim Duncan or Manu Ginobili if I was the Mavs, they will be ready to stick it to the Mavs. Had the Mavs won it all I think they would have had a little edge on the Spurs, now they don't.

The Spurs imo are still the team to beat again out West again. They still have a pretty darn good ballclub. Nothing against the Mavs, it's just the history the Spurs have in the West the last few years.
I agree with you, I can't stand the Spurs but I like Tim Duncan but I can see them going back to the Finals next year if they can stay healthy
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Old 06-22-06, 08:18 AM
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Originally Posted by nickdawgy
Kobe's 27, Shaq's what 34? He has alot of time left, and will win another title, with the Lakers or without them.
I'm inclined to disagree, but time will tell, won't it?
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Old 06-22-06, 08:28 AM
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Kobe is dieing a laker... i think the Laker brass will eat crap before they let him go
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Old 06-22-06, 09:06 AM
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Originally Posted by nickdawgy
Shaq's not the best player in the game. Wade is one of the best, but he's no Kobe (insert rape joke here). I think maybe LeBron might be the best in the game.

Take the Lakers-Pistons Finals from a few years ago. Shaq had his 20-10 performances in all 5 games. Kobe was smothered by the terrific Pistons D, and the Lakers were done for. If Shaq was so good, why didn't he take advantage of the triple teams on Kobe, and score 40 a night? The Lakers should have won that series.
I think Wade and LeBron are both top 5, but I still put Kobe #1. Neither of those 2 are as good defensively as Kobe.
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Old 06-22-06, 09:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Mr. Cinema
I think Wade and LeBron are both top 5, but I still put Kobe #1. Neither of those 2 are as good defensively as Kobe.
all depends how you define best. Kobe is #1 from a pure talent/ability standpoint on both sides of the ball, but that doesn't make him #1 in my book overall, because basketball is a team game.
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Old 06-22-06, 03:29 PM
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Originally Posted by dvd_luver
Yeah and the Spurs almost won the series down 3-1 they came storming back and lost in OT in that game 7. You seem like a real Mavs fan so you better enjoy it while it lasts I think the Mavs will have a much harder time if they meet up with the Spurs of beating them again in 2007. I wouldn't want to look into the eyes of #21 Tim Duncan or Manu Ginobili if I was the Mavs, they will be ready to stick it to the Mavs. Had the Mavs won it all I think they would have had a little edge on the Spurs, now they don't.

The Spurs imo are still the team to beat again out West again. They still have a pretty darn good ballclub. Nothing against the Mavs, it's just the history the Spurs have in the West the last few years.
As a Mavs fan I'll say this: Until this year there was NO question. The Spurs were the team to beat. Now I would say the Mavs AND Suns have caught up with them. No not surpassed them, but caught up with them. It use to be the only top team in the West was the Surs, then everyone else. Now I see it as Mavs, Spurs, Suns IN NO PARTICULAR order, then everyone else.

I totally agree, Spurs healthy will be a challenge. But don't forget that if the Suns were healthy they may have the the most talented starting line up of the three teams.

Who will win??? I think health will always be an issue which makes it tougher on the Spurs (older team overall). I don't think any of the 3 teams will make major moves in the off season, but one or two key signings could make the difference. Also, who will get hot at the end of the season.

One of my concerns will be that the West will beat each other up all year and in the play offs, then whoever gets to the finals will have nothing left. Which is why I like Dallas. They have the most depth of any of the teams. But as the finals showed they do need one or two savvy vets to help deliver knock out blows (see game 3) and make key baskets, free throws, and draw fouls late in the game when the other team is double/triple teaming your stars. (see game 5).

I like Dallas to be there again. I really believe them beating San Antonio was "in their mind" their goal. Well they have done that now and so they are mentally ready for the next step goal which I don't think they really were this year. Sure I wish and they they could have won it this year. But this will give them some toughness, some grit for next year.
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Old 06-22-06, 03:33 PM
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Originally Posted by magicmanej
Sorry dude...didn't mean to rub you the wrong way or question your fanhood. I was just pointing out the humor in saying that you didn't watch a minute of the game and then the next poster calls you a real fan. I got a kick out of it.
Yea, I see it. Actually I watched every playoff game up till game 6 and I was very torn about not seeing. But like I said, I had been working out of town and holed up in a hotel room. Got the chance to hit the town a little (Austin) and made the most of it.

I probably shouldn't have said anything about not watching the game. But I just wanted to clarify why I wasn't going to talk about particular plays or situations in the game.
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Old 06-22-06, 11:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Sdallnct
Now I see it as Mavs, Spurs, Suns IN NO PARTICULAR order, then everyone else.
Your exactly right, in the West I would place the Mavs first because they won the West but the Spurs imo because of how they lost to the Mavs (down 3-1 came back strong forced game 7 lost in OT) just fell a bit short. The team that had the better OT moved on, so the Spurs will be rested, healthy and ready to win it all again and this won't be that same Spurs team which Dallas barely beat, by 1 OT.
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Old 06-23-06, 12:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Mr. Cinema
I think Wade and LeBron are both top 5, but I still put Kobe #1. Neither of those 2 are as good defensively as Kobe.
I'd normally have put Kobe number one, but then I'd get flamed....
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Old 06-23-06, 10:16 AM
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Originally Posted by dvd_luver
Yeah and the Spurs almost won the series down 3-1 they came storming back and lost in OT in that game 7. You seem like a real Mavs fan so you better enjoy it while it lasts I think the Mavs will have a much harder time if they meet up with the Spurs of beating them again in 2007. I wouldn't want to look into the eyes of #21 Tim Duncan or Manu Ginobili if I was the Mavs, they will be ready to stick it to the Mavs. Had the Mavs won it all I think they would have had a little edge on the Spurs, now they don't.

The Spurs imo are still the team to beat again out West again. They still have a pretty darn good ballclub. Nothing against the Mavs, it's just the history the Spurs have in the West the last few years.
Not to mention SA's players are gettin old. Maybe u should enjoy it why it lasts, or lasted.
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Old 06-23-06, 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Maxwell Smart
Not to mention SA's players are gettin old. Maybe u should enjoy it why it lasts, or lasted.
I sense a bit of sarcasm from you there, I am not a huge Spurs fan but they are in their prime with Duncan and Manu, and Tony Parker is still an emerging NBA star. They have plenty of gas left in the tank for years to come. I think they will be tough to beat in 2007.
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Old 06-23-06, 11:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Sdallnct
This is not exactly what I heard on the radio re: the MGM Grand 2006/2007 champions, but this is pretty close. I find it odd that Detroit is so highly rated with their coaching issues. Interesting that Houston is up there as well.

http://www.playersonly.com/lines/index.php?sport=524
So what are the odds on the Knicks?!

-p
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Old 06-23-06, 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by pedagogue
So what are the odds on the Knicks?!

-p
Is your index finger broken? One click will tell you.

200-1. Surprisingly, only Jason's Jailblazers are at worse odds (300-1). Those odds are completely wrong. Play next year over and over 1000 times, and the Knicks do not win it all. Anyone who takes those odds would be a freaking idiot.
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