Sports Talk Discuss all things Sports Related
View Poll Results: If Bonds used roids should the record be his if he breaks it?
yes
16
40.00%
no
24
60.00%
Voters: 40. You may not vote on this poll

Bonds, steroids and 756 HRs?

Old 04-26-04, 03:00 PM
  #1  
DVD Talk Legend
Thread Starter
 
Bacon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: the 870
Posts: 21,186
Bonds, steroids and 756 hrs?

I say no, anyone who cheats shouldn't get to be recognized as a reord holder
Bacon is offline  
Old 04-26-04, 03:04 PM
  #2  
DVD Talk Legend
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Work. Or commuting. Certainly not at home.
Posts: 17,816
Where's the "of course. This is a silly question" answer?
wildcatlh is offline  
Old 04-26-04, 03:08 PM
  #3  
DVD Talk Hero
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Shackled
Posts: 35,372
I'll echo Wildcat's point. Silly question.
Bushdog is offline  
Old 04-26-04, 03:09 PM
  #4  
DVD Talk Legend
Thread Starter
 
Bacon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: the 870
Posts: 21,186
then don't answer
Bacon is offline  
Old 04-26-04, 03:09 PM
  #5  
DVD Talk God
 
twikoff's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Right Behind You!!!
Posts: 79,497
no - they should
or yes - they shouldnt



asking a question with a double negative makes it pretty difficult to answer

but as long as your at it.. I guess you have to go back and take away the records for all the spit ball throwers, and all the people that have used corked bat, or put their pine tar too high on the bat, or the other people in the past that have used thg that wasnt currently banned, etc...

cheat is a pretty broad term.. you probably eliminated half the baseball heroes of all time
twikoff is offline  
Old 04-26-04, 03:10 PM
  #6  
DVD Talk Hero
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Shackled
Posts: 35,372
Originally posted by Canadian Bacon
then don't answer
I guess I didn't realize that you weren't looking for discussion about the issue if it didn't conform to yor worldview. Apologies, but that's not how a public forum works.
Bushdog is offline  
Old 04-26-04, 03:11 PM
  #7  
DVD Talk God
 
twikoff's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Right Behind You!!!
Posts: 79,497
btw..

i answered 'No'

which if you cancel out the double negatives.. means records should still count, unless you plan to toss the entire record book into the garbage
twikoff is offline  
Old 04-26-04, 03:13 PM
  #8  
DVD Talk Hero
 
El Scorcho's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 39,628
I wasn't aware that he took anything that's on a list of banned MLB substances. Do you know something we don't know?
El Scorcho is offline  
Old 04-26-04, 03:14 PM
  #9  
DVD Talk Hero
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Shackled
Posts: 35,372
Twikky is right. Can you tell me without a doubt that other players haven't tried to use advantages that skirted the rules, or (at the time) modern anti-cheating technology? Also, I'm not sure he even did anything "illegal" if he took the stuff.

I cannot.

I hate Bonds with a passion, but if you accomplish something, then you accomplish it, period.
Bushdog is offline  
Old 04-26-04, 03:20 PM
  #10  
DVD Talk God
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Directionally Challenged (for DirecTV)
Posts: 122,948
Is he actually cheating if he takes roids?

Maybe you should change the question to:
"Gaylord Perry, vaseline, and the Hall of Fame?"
Red Dog is offline  
Old 04-26-04, 03:21 PM
  #11  
DVD Talk God
 
twikoff's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Right Behind You!!!
Posts: 79,497
and once we find that steroid that improves your eye, patience, and bat speed.. someone will be a billionaire
Bonds success is largely due to having one of the best eyes and patience in the majors, as well as the best bat speed in the world.
Bonds has always put up impressive numbers, and is well known to spend all his time in the gym. So it would only make sense that he has improved his body. If he used some sort of thg that was not against mlb rules, then it will probably tarnish him a little.. but since there was no rule against it, its impossible to really take anything away from him. maybe part of bonds strength improvements through the years have come from this substance (maybe).. but alot of that strength came from lifting weights like a mad man. And that extra strength was the final key to take one of the most dominant hitters, and make him stand out among the rest.
i guess the fact that he was the best batter in the 90s (argueable with griffey of course) means nothing.
and even if he was on some substance.. does anything think he would be dumb enough to still be on it? his numbers so far this season have been even higher than the record breaking season so far. My guess is that he is sending a big **** you to anyone that doubts him.
twikoff is offline  
Old 04-26-04, 03:21 PM
  #12  
DVD Talk Legend
Thread Starter
 
Bacon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: the 870
Posts: 21,186
Originally posted by Bushdog
I guess I didn't realize that you weren't looking for discussion about the issue if it didn't conform to yor worldview. Apologies, but that's not how a public forum works.


"A silly question" is not an answer

okay the real question should be "will YOU recognise him as the record holder, it may be an offcial record but in your eyes is it? Poorly worded on my part. True no one can prove what other players used but still If Bonds is dirty it certainly cheapens it. IMHO
Bacon is offline  
Old 04-26-04, 03:24 PM
  #13  
DVD Talk God
 
twikoff's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Right Behind You!!!
Posts: 79,497
in my eyes.. definitly, without a doubt
i cant really seen where anyone can make any sort of valid arguement against it..
not without being either hypocritical or wearing some HUGE blinders focused directly at barry
twikoff is offline  
Old 04-26-04, 03:27 PM
  #14  
Suspended
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Posts: 15,108
yes most deftinetly.
MJKTool is offline  
Old 04-26-04, 03:33 PM
  #15  
DVD Talk Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 12,008
Unfortunately, THG not being on the banned substance list prior to last year is a giant loophole. Of course, the only major difference between it and anabolic steroids is that it was specifically manufactured so as not to show up in standard testing.

Bonds' number won't be *'d, but fans are certainly well within their rights to question them. Regardless of the fact that it doesn't help the hand/eye coordination necessary to hitting the ball as consistently as Bonds does, we know that strength and durability are affected. And, yes, androstenedione offers similar benefits. And in my opinion, if you use a substance that has the same affect as steroids specifically so no one will find out, that raises questions.
Mad Dawg is offline  
Old 04-26-04, 03:40 PM
  #16  
DVD Talk Legend
 
LurkerDan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: The People's Republic of Boulder
Posts: 22,002
Originally posted by Mad Dawg
Unfortunately, THG not being on the banned substance list prior to last year is a giant loophole. Of course, the only major difference between it and anabolic steroids is that it was specifically manufactured so as not to show up in standard testing.

Bonds' number won't be *'d, but fans are certainly well within their rights to question them. Regardless of the fact that it doesn't help the hand/eye coordination necessary to hitting the ball as consistently as Bonds does, we know that strength and durability are affected. And, yes, androstenedione offers similar benefits. And in my opinion, if you use a substance that has the same affect as steroids specifically so no one will find out, that raises questions.
Can't argue that using steroids is questionable, and we can view his accomplishments differently, but he's still the record holder. And, I would like to point out that over the long term, like a baseball career, durability is negatively affected by steroids, not positively. At least that's my understanding of its effects.
LurkerDan is offline  
Old 04-26-04, 03:44 PM
  #17  
DVD Talk Legend
Thread Starter
 
Bacon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: the 870
Posts: 21,186
Bacon is offline  
Old 04-26-04, 03:50 PM
  #18  
DVD Talk Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 12,008
Originally posted by LurkerDan
Can't argue that using steroids is questionable, and we can view his accomplishments differently, but he's still the record holder. And, I would like to point out that over the long term, like a baseball career, durability is negatively affected by steroids, not positively. At least that's my understanding of its effects.
Absolutely. And there's one difference between keeping a bottle of andro in your locker and being personally trained by an individual whose organization creates designer steroids. BALCO's business is to keep its clients performing to the best of their abilities, so the end result is probably different than buying 'roids from a guy who knows a guy who goes to Tijuana once a week, or from picking up some "supplements" at GNC.

The bottom line, and I think most of us can agree on this, is that minds are already made up among the fans. Baseball, however, won't be able to asterisk his accomplishments.
Mad Dawg is offline  
Old 04-26-04, 03:52 PM
  #19  
DVD Talk Hero
 
El Scorcho's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 39,628
Ain't no steroid in the world that will help you make flush contact with a MLB pitch time and time again.
El Scorcho is offline  
Old 04-26-04, 03:56 PM
  #20  
DVD Talk Special Edition
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Pacific NW
Posts: 1,691
Originally posted by El Scorcho
Ain't no steroid in the world that will help you make flush contact with a MLB pitch time and time again.
But unfortunately, it DOES give you the strength to hit the ball harder / farther.
SuprVgeta is offline  
Old 04-26-04, 03:59 PM
  #21  
DVD Talk Hero
 
El Scorcho's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 39,628
Originally posted by SuprVgeta
But unfortunately, it DOES give you the strength to hit the ball harder / farther.
Yep, so does weight training and having a strict training program.

And Bonds, if he did take 'roids, is clearly off of them now (like someone else said, he wouldn't be stupid enough to keep taking them) and is still mashing the ball.
El Scorcho is offline  
Old 04-26-04, 04:08 PM
  #22  
DVD Talk God
 
twikoff's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Right Behind You!!!
Posts: 79,497
Originally posted by El Scorcho
Yep, so does weight training and having a strict training program.

And Bonds, if he did take 'roids, is clearly off of them now (like someone else said, he wouldn't be stupid enough to keep taking them) and is still mashing the ball.
yep
even if he was on the juice.. noone can say that its the only reason for his physical change.. part of that comes from spending all his type working out.. Its well know that bonds is a workout freak.. gotta give him some credit for building up his body on his own.
twikoff is offline  
Old 04-26-04, 04:19 PM
  #23  
DVD Talk Special Edition
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Pacific NW
Posts: 1,691
Well, none of us know the exact details yet, however it is my opinion that he has used them at some point in his career. It doesn't surprise me the least bit that every player so far has denied using the substances, but more and more info keeps coming out that would beg to differ. Bonds probably does workout a lot, but when you're an athlete that can get an edge on the competition and not get caught, you're more than likely going to go for it. I've heard the argument from somebody on ESPN a while ago that Bonds has "too much pride" to take them, well that may be the case, but Sammy Sosa was seen as a guy with good character, but that didn't stop him from cheating by corking his bat last season...
SuprVgeta is offline  
Old 04-26-04, 04:51 PM
  #24  
DVD Talk God
 
twikoff's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Right Behind You!!!
Posts: 79,497
i never thought of sammy as a guy with good character
twikoff is offline  
Old 04-26-04, 04:53 PM
  #25  
Stealth Moderator
 
namja's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: In Transit, HQ
Posts: 24,988
If, and only if, Bonds is found to have taken steroids (the kind banned by MLB) in 2002 when he hit 73 HR, then they should take his record away--to be consistent with other harsh penalties like banning Pete Rose (this is what MLB would say). I'll still consider Bonds to be one of the best players to ever to play baseball, but rules are rules.

On the other hand, they kept letting Darryl Strawberry back to the MLB to play, so maybe their drug policy is just a recommendation.

I wish that MLB would be clear on the drug rules and be consistent with its enforcement.
namja is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.