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who are the top 5 baseball closers today?

Old 04-15-04, 07:43 AM
  #51  
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Originally posted by Deftones, Esq
playing devil's advocate here, why should a guy be penalized for not pitching in the playoffs? It's his team's fault, not his.
He's part of his team. He impacts their success or failure.

As you, you rotten scum sonofa... pointed out, Rivera is responsible for blowing game 7. He also was responsible for closing out a number of series. In sum he's been a critical force at producing winning postseasons for the Yankees.
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Old 04-15-04, 10:29 AM
  #52  
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Originally posted by Bushdog
He's part of his team. He impacts their success or failure.

As you, you rotten scum sonofa... pointed out, Rivera is responsible for blowing game 7. He also was responsible for closing out a number of series. In sum he's been a critical force at producing winning postseasons for the Yankees.
Yes, I understand the argument, however I think it's moot. It's not a revelvant argument because Percival hasn't lost any games in the playoffs. Had he blown some saves, then maybe it's comparable, but to base an individual comparison on something that only the team has control over doesn't seem logical to me.
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Old 04-15-04, 11:21 AM
  #53  
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Dark Elf,

Percival IS a top 5 closer in the game of baseball TODAY, in my opinion. I brought up his career stats because Mr. LurkerDan thought it was insane to argue the fact that Percival is as good as Rivera for his career.....

Originally posted by LurkerDan
Are you seriously going to argue that Percival is as good as a reliever as Rivera for his career?
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Old 04-15-04, 11:25 AM
  #54  
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To say we shouldn't look at postseason performance as a measure of a player because it's not fair because others may have not had the opportunity, I say bull.

First, many stats are dependent on your team. Even forgetting RBI's or R's, hitters stats are affected by who is hitting behind them and who is in front of them (on base). Saves are affected by how often your team gives you the opportunity to save a game. The list goes on.

Nobody is penalizing Percival for not being in the playoffs as much. What I and others here are doing is ELEVATING Rivera. Regular season, maybe they're even. But postseason, Rivera has PROVEN he's a stud, and his stature is therefore greater. Percival could very well have performed just as well, given the chance, but we don't know. That's not a knock on Percival at all, but it doesn't mean that Rivera doesn't deserve extra credit for his performance.

Difference in teams affecting individual stats is just sports. Barry Bonds would have way more HR's and RBI's if he had Jeter and Giambi hitting in front of him and ARod hitting behind him, but he doesn't, so instead he has 180 walks a year. That is what it is.
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Old 04-15-04, 11:29 AM
  #55  
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Originally posted by Setzer
Dark Elf,

Percival IS a top 5 closer in the game of baseball TODAY, in my opinion. I brought up his career stats because Mr. LurkerDan thought it was insane to argue the fact that Percival is as good as Rivera for his career.....
You are obviously entitled to your opinion. And their career regular season stats are very comparable. But could you find one respected commentator or one GM (other than the Angels' GM ) who would take Percival over Rivera? I doubt it.

ETA: I HATE the fact that I am forced to "defend" a Yankee in this debate.

Last edited by LurkerDan; 04-15-04 at 03:22 PM.
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Old 04-15-04, 02:19 PM
  #56  
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Originally posted by Setzer
Dark Elf,

Percival IS a top 5 closer in the game of baseball TODAY, in my opinion. I brought up his career stats because Mr. LurkerDan thought it was insane to argue the fact that Percival is as good as Rivera for his career.....
Okay, as long as we're on the same page here.

But for me, when a closer is diagnosed with a degenerative hip, changes his mechanics and see's a decline in his peripheral stats (HR's up, walks up, strikeouts down), plus an ERA than nearly doubles (or if you prefer, sees his PERA* increase), he has to prove to me that he can return to being as effective as he was before the hip condition forced him to change his mechanics.

* metric estimating ERA based on peripheral numbers.
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Old 04-15-04, 07:32 PM
  #57  
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thanks all for the inputs. All the top 5 that have been listed here are already taken so the chances of me getting them in a trade are pretty low. I currently have Ubina and M. Herges as the closers....

you can see my fantasy team here btw

C J. López (Bal - C) CUtilBench @Tor 4:05 pm -/- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
1B J. Bagwell (Hou - 1B) 1BUtilBench Mil 5:05 pm -/- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
2B E. Young (Tex - 2B) 2BUtilBench @Sea 7:05 pm -/- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
3B M. Cabrera (Fla - 3B,LF) 3BOFUtilBench @Atl 4:35 pm -/- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
SS J. Valentín (CWS - SS) SSUtilBench @TB 4:15 pm -/- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
OF C. Lee (CWS - LF) OFUtilBench @TB 4:15 pm -/- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
OF C. Beltrán (KC - CF) OFUtilBench @Min 5:10 pm -/- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
OF M. Ordóńez (CWS - RF) OFUtilBench @TB 4:15 pm -/- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Util C. Crawford (TB - LF) OFUtilBench CWS 4:15 pm -/- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
BN R. Hidalgo (Hou - RF) OFUtilBench Mil 5:05 pm -/- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
BN E. Chávez (Oak - 3B) 3BUtilBench @Ana 7:05 pm -/- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
BN C. Delgado (Tor - 1B) 1BUtilBench Bal 4:05 pm -/- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
BN K. Griffey Jr. (Cin - CF) OFUtilBench @ChC 12:20 pm -/- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -


Pos Pitchers Edit Opp Status IP W L CG SHO SV H ER HR BB K GIDP ERA WHIP
SP J. Vázquez (NYY - SP) SPPBench ^@Bos 5:05 pm - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
SP T. Wakefield (Bos - SP) SPPBench ^NYY 5:05 pm - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
SP K. Ishii (LA - SP) SPPBench @SF 7:15 pm - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
RP M. Herges (SF - RP) RPPBench LA 7:15 pm - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
RP U. Urbina (Det - RP) RPPBench @Cle 4:05 pm - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
P P. Wilson (Cin - SP) SPPBench @ChC 12:20 pm - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
P C. Sabathia (Cle - SP) SPPBench ^Det 4:05 pm - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
BN M. Redman (Oak - SP) SPPBench @Ana 7:05 pm - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
BN G. Maddux (ChC - SP) SPPBench Cin 12:20 pm - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
BN L. Hernández (Mon - SP) SPPBench ^@Phi 4:05 pm - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
BN A. Eaton (SD - SP) SPPBench Ari 7:05 pm - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
BN B. Penny (Fla - SP) SPPBench @Atl 4:35 pm - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
DL B. KimDL (Bos - SP,RP) SPRPPBenchDL NYY 5:05 pm - - - - - - - - - - - - - -



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Old 04-15-04, 10:44 PM
  #58  
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Best current closers:

1. Eric Gagne
2. Mariano Rivera
3. John Smoltz
4. Billy Wagner
5. Keith Foulke
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Old 04-16-04, 12:43 AM
  #59  
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Originally posted by LurkerDan
You are obviously entitled to your opinion. And their career regular season stats are very comparable. But could you find one respected commentator or one GM (other than the Angels' GM ) who would take Percival over Rivera? I doubt it.

ETA: I HATE the fact that I am forced to "defend" a Yankee in this debate.
I'd even take Rivera over Percival. Nobody is saying Percival is the better closer. I just think he definitely belongs in the top 5. He's not number 1, but he's at least top 5.

If the Angels had to release Percival because they couldn't afford him (just throwing out a scenario here) then you think the other clubs would all be saying "Well, I'd take him, but his hip is really a question mark, so forget it." or "He's not a top 5 closer, not until he's healthy"

I don't think so. Anyone would pick him up, and half the teams in the league would love to have him as their closer.

On a side note...since moving from starter to closer has done wonders for Smoltz and Gagne (more so Gagne, obviously) I wonder if the Angels could move Ortiz to closer. Then he might actually be useful

Last edited by nickdawgy; 04-16-04 at 12:46 AM.
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Old 04-16-04, 12:49 AM
  #60  
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Originally posted by nickdawgy

I don't think so. Anyone would pick him up, and half the teams in the league would love to have him as their closer.
While I'd agree that some teams would like to have him as a closer, alot of teams won't risk the $ on him.
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Old 04-16-04, 12:52 AM
  #61  
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Originally posted by Deftones, Esq
While I'd agree that some teams would like to have him as a closer, alot of teams won't risk the $ on him.
Probably true, but he's still top 5
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Old 04-16-04, 12:55 AM
  #62  
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Originally posted by nickdawgy
Probably true, but he's still top 5
Step away from your blind allegiance to your team. Thank you.
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Old 04-16-04, 01:37 AM
  #63  
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Originally posted by nickdawgy
I'd even take Rivera over Percival. Nobody is saying Percival is the better closer. I just think he definitely belongs in the top 5. He's not number 1, but he's at least top 5.

If the Angels had to release Percival because they couldn't afford him (just throwing out a scenario here) then you think the other clubs would all be saying "Well, I'd take him, but his hip is really a question mark, so forget it." or "He's not a top 5 closer, not until he's healthy"

I don't think so. Anyone would pick him up, and half the teams in the league would love to have him as their closer.
Half the teams taking him doesn't make him top 5. That makes him top 15. If you'd take Rivera over him, why argue about him in relation to Rivera? If many here have said the top 5 is Rivera, Gagne, Smoltz, Wagner, and Foulke, maybe you should spend your energy arguing which one of those guys does NOT belong in the top 5 (since you think Percival does), rather than arguing against Rivera who you apparently think belongs. What have we been arguing about here?
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Old 04-16-04, 02:00 AM
  #64  
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Originally posted by LurkerDan
Half the teams taking him doesn't make him top 5. That makes him top 15. If you'd take Rivera over him, why argue about him in relation to Rivera? If many here have said the top 5 is Rivera, Gagne, Smoltz, Wagner, and Foulke, maybe you should spend your energy arguing which one of those guys does NOT belong in the top 5 (since you think Percival does), rather than arguing against Rivera who you apparently think belongs. What have we been arguing about here?
I agree, i don't see how you can remove any of those guys for Percy. Top 3 on just about everyone's lists are going to be Gagne, Smoltz, and Rivera, and i can't imagine putting Percy over Wagner or Foulke at this moment in his career. Maybe a couple years ago, but definitely not now. So no, Percival is NOT top 5.
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Old 04-16-04, 03:40 AM
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Francisco "K-Rod" Rodriguez will slide into the closer's role either at the end of this year, or next year after Percival is gone. He's had his run and is definitely NOT a current top-5 closer in baseball.
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Old 04-16-04, 04:57 AM
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Originally posted by SuprVgeta
Francisco "K-Rod" Rodriguez will slide into the closer's role either at the end of this year, or next year after Percival is gone. He's had his run and is definitely NOT a current top-5 closer in baseball.
Yup. Like I said, Percival isn't even the best reliever on his own team.

Unless Percival accepts a major pay cut (to like $2M), there is NO way Anaheim resigns him. They will definitely be cutting back on the team salary next year, I'd guess by at least $15M.
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Old 04-16-04, 05:05 AM
  #67  
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Originally posted by nickdawgy
If the Angels had to release Percival because they couldn't afford him (just throwing out a scenario here) then you think the other clubs would all be saying "Well, I'd take him, but his hip is really a question mark, so forget it." or "He's not a top 5 closer, not until he's healthy"

I don't think so. Anyone would pick him up, and half the teams in the league would love to have him as their closer.
Some teams are willing to sign Jose Mesa. Some teams keep Billy Koch as their closer. OF COURSE some teams would take Percival too. He just won't come close to getting $7.5M+ unless he's fully healthy and pitching like he did a few years ago.



Originally posted by nickdawgy
On a side note...since moving from starter to closer has done wonders for Smoltz and Gagne (more so Gagne, obviously) I wonder if the Angels could move Ortiz to closer. Then he might actually be useful
Unfortunately, I don't think he's a good candidate for that. He walks way too many batters, and gives up WAAAAAAAY too many home runs.
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