who are the top 5 baseball closers today?
04-13-04, 09:18 PM
#26
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Originally posted by rabbit77
what about all time?
I'll say
1) Eck
2) Rivera
3) Smith
what about all time?
I'll say
1) Eck
2) Rivera
3) Smith
Top 10:
L Smith - 478
J Franco - 424
Eckersley - 390 (also had 197 wins, 100 CG, 20 SHO, 2401 Ks)
Reardon - 367
Hoffman - 353
Myers - 347
Fingers - 341 (also had 114 wins)
Wetteland - 330
Hernandez - 320
Aguilera - Gossage
other noteables:
Gossage 310 (124 wins & 1502 Ks)
Wilhelm 227 (143 wins & 1610 Ks)
04-14-04, 04:13 PM
#27
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Originally posted by DarkElf
I'd say he's not even the best reliever on his own team.
I'd say he's not even the best reliever on his own team.
04-14-04, 04:36 PM
#28
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Originally posted by Setzer
Heh. 283 career saves which works out to an average of 31 saves p/season which is the same number Rivera is putting up yet you all consider him a 'top 5' closer. Apparently you guys don't know much about baseball or your oblivious to what he's done throughout his career.
Heh. 283 career saves which works out to an average of 31 saves p/season which is the same number Rivera is putting up yet you all consider him a 'top 5' closer. Apparently you guys don't know much about baseball or your oblivious to what he's done throughout his career.
But the comment you objected to, and posted these stats in response to, was about Percival's current status, so his career stats are irrelevant.
And before you say I am oblivious to Percival's accomplishments, go back and read my posts in this thread.
04-14-04, 04:48 PM
#29
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Originally posted by Setzer
Heh. 283 career saves which works out to an average of 31 saves p/season which is the same number Rivera is putting up yet you all consider him a 'top 5' closer. Apparently you guys don't know much about baseball or your oblivious to what he's done throughout his career.
Heh. 283 career saves which works out to an average of 31 saves p/season which is the same number Rivera is putting up yet you all consider him a 'top 5' closer. Apparently you guys don't know much about baseball or your oblivious to what he's done throughout his career.
04-14-04, 05:28 PM
#33
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Originally posted by wabio
Hoffman's name shouldn't even be mentioned in this thread unless the word "worst" is included in the sentence.
He's a has been.
Hoffman's name shouldn't even be mentioned in this thread unless the word "worst" is included in the sentence.
He's a has been.
04-14-04, 05:35 PM
#34
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Percival has 285 career saves, Rivera 286. Both have had 330 save opps. Rivera has pitched just about 100 more innings then Percival. Percival has 648 career k's, Rivera 586.
Both players have won a World Series. If I recall, both are All-Stars.
Rivera has a 2.49 career ERA, Percival 2.99. Rivera has allowed 520 hits in his career, Percival 350.
It looks to me that Percival is pretty much on par or better then Rivera in all the important stats. So he definitely belongs on the top 5 list. The arguement that he's not 100% so he's not one of the top 5 is crap.
If Bonds were hurt, you think someone would say "Well he's not one of my top 5 hitters, because of his sore hammy or his torn ACL or whatever."
Both players have won a World Series. If I recall, both are All-Stars.
Rivera has a 2.49 career ERA, Percival 2.99. Rivera has allowed 520 hits in his career, Percival 350.
It looks to me that Percival is pretty much on par or better then Rivera in all the important stats. So he definitely belongs on the top 5 list. The arguement that he's not 100% so he's not one of the top 5 is crap.
If Bonds were hurt, you think someone would say "Well he's not one of my top 5 hitters, because of his sore hammy or his torn ACL or whatever."
04-14-04, 05:47 PM
#35
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The difference is in the career postseason stats. Rivera hasn't won a World Series, he's won 4. Granted Rivera has more opportunities but no RP has ever been more dominating (take away blowing that game 7 in '01) all-time in the post-season:
Rivera
21 Postseason Series
Games: 61
ERA: 0.75
Record: 7-1
SV: 30
IP: 96.0
H: 60
ER: 8
BB: 12
K: 77
WHIP: 0.75
Percival
3 Postseason Series
Games: 9
ERA: 2.79
Record: 0-0
SV: 7
IP: 9.7
H: 8
ER: 3
BB: 1
K: 10
WHIP: 0.93
Rivera
21 Postseason Series
Games: 61
ERA: 0.75
Record: 7-1
SV: 30
IP: 96.0
H: 60
ER: 8
BB: 12
K: 77
WHIP: 0.75
Percival
3 Postseason Series
Games: 9
ERA: 2.79
Record: 0-0
SV: 7
IP: 9.7
H: 8
ER: 3
BB: 1
K: 10
WHIP: 0.93
Last edited by rabbit77; 04-14-04 at 05:54 PM.
04-14-04, 06:10 PM
#36
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Originally posted by rabbit77
The difference is in the career postseason stats. Rivera hasn't won a World Series, he's won 4. Granted Rivera has more opportunities but no RP has ever been more dominating (take away blowing that game 7 in '01) all-time in the post-season:
Rivera
21 Postseason Series
Games: 61
ERA: 0.75
Record: 7-1
SV: 30
IP: 96.0
H: 60
ER: 8
BB: 12
K: 77
WHIP: 0.75
Percival
3 Postseason Series
Games: 9
ERA: 2.79
Record: 0-0
SV: 7
IP: 9.7
H: 8
ER: 3
BB: 1
K: 10
WHIP: 0.93
The difference is in the career postseason stats. Rivera hasn't won a World Series, he's won 4. Granted Rivera has more opportunities but no RP has ever been more dominating (take away blowing that game 7 in '01) all-time in the post-season:
Rivera
21 Postseason Series
Games: 61
ERA: 0.75
Record: 7-1
SV: 30
IP: 96.0
H: 60
ER: 8
BB: 12
K: 77
WHIP: 0.75
Percival
3 Postseason Series
Games: 9
ERA: 2.79
Record: 0-0
SV: 7
IP: 9.7
H: 8
ER: 3
BB: 1
K: 10
WHIP: 0.93
04-14-04, 06:13 PM
#37
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Originally posted by rabbit77
The difference is in the career postseason stats. Rivera hasn't won a World Series, he's won 4. Granted Rivera has more opportunities but no RP has ever been more dominating (take away blowing that game 7 in '01) all-time in the post-season:
Rivera
21 Postseason Series
Games: 61
ERA: 0.75
Record: 7-1
SV: 30
IP: 96.0
H: 60
ER: 8
BB: 12
K: 77
WHIP: 0.75
Percival
3 Postseason Series
Games: 9
ERA: 2.79
Record: 0-0
SV: 7
IP: 9.7
H: 8
ER: 3
BB: 1
K: 10
WHIP: 0.93
The difference is in the career postseason stats. Rivera hasn't won a World Series, he's won 4. Granted Rivera has more opportunities but no RP has ever been more dominating (take away blowing that game 7 in '01) all-time in the post-season:
Rivera
21 Postseason Series
Games: 61
ERA: 0.75
Record: 7-1
SV: 30
IP: 96.0
H: 60
ER: 8
BB: 12
K: 77
WHIP: 0.75
Percival
3 Postseason Series
Games: 9
ERA: 2.79
Record: 0-0
SV: 7
IP: 9.7
H: 8
ER: 3
BB: 1
K: 10
WHIP: 0.93
How many saves has Rivera blown in the postseason. I believe it's 1 or 2. Nobody, NOBODY, has ever dominated as a closer in the post-season like he has. And you won't find a single reputable commentator to disagree with that.
Sure, Percival's getting "screwed" because he hasn't pitched as much in the post-season, but that's sports.
04-14-04, 06:15 PM
#38
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Originally posted by LurkerDan
Are you seriously going to argue that Percival is as good as a reliever as Rivera for his career?
Are you seriously going to argue that Percival is as good as a reliever as Rivera for his career?
PHP Code:
PLAYER G IP H R ER HR BB SO SV HLD BLSV ERA
Percival 529 539.0 350 194 179 56 234 648 285 31 45 2.99
Rivera 516 653.2 520 195 181 37 178 586 286 29 44 2.49
Yah I'm gonna argue it. Let the numbers speak for themselves.
04-14-04, 06:18 PM
#39
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Originally posted by nickdawgy
It looks to me that Percival is pretty much on par or better then Rivera in all the important stats. So he definitely belongs on the top 5 list. The arguement that he's not 100% so he's not one of the top 5 is crap.
If Bonds were hurt, you think someone would say "Well he's not one of my top 5 hitters, because of his sore hammy or his torn ACL or whatever."
It looks to me that Percival is pretty much on par or better then Rivera in all the important stats. So he definitely belongs on the top 5 list. The arguement that he's not 100% so he's not one of the top 5 is crap.
If Bonds were hurt, you think someone would say "Well he's not one of my top 5 hitters, because of his sore hammy or his torn ACL or whatever."
04-14-04, 06:27 PM
#40
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Originally posted by LurkerDan
Sure, Percival's getting "screwed" because he hasn't pitched as much in the post-season, but that's sports.
Sure, Percival's getting "screwed" because he hasn't pitched as much in the post-season, but that's sports.
04-14-04, 06:47 PM
#41
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I think calling Rivera a better reliever then Percival based on his post season performance and world series rings is a poor argument. I think thats equivalent to saying Bonds is a knock lower because he hasn't won a ring. You can't fault a player for having fewer chances.
Based on the regular season stats, i still think Rivera is better. But i can see how an argument can be made that Percival is right up there. But like others have said, this is the top 5 closers today... so no, Percival shouldn't be up there.
Based on the regular season stats, i still think Rivera is better. But i can see how an argument can be made that Percival is right up there. But like others have said, this is the top 5 closers today... so no, Percival shouldn't be up there.
04-14-04, 06:54 PM
#42
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Originally posted by fumanstan
I think calling Rivera a better reliever then Percival based on his post season performance and world series rings is a poor argument. I think thats equivalent to saying Bonds is a knock lower because he hasn't won a ring. You can't fault a player for having fewer chances.
I think calling Rivera a better reliever then Percival based on his post season performance and world series rings is a poor argument. I think thats equivalent to saying Bonds is a knock lower because he hasn't won a ring. You can't fault a player for having fewer chances.
The ability to step up and perform better than you normally do when it matters most isn't important?
04-14-04, 11:16 PM
#44
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Originally posted by LurkerDan
It's not the rings, per se, at least it isn't for me. It's performing during the most pressure packed time, facing the best teams (and, ergo, hitters), in front of all the world, and utterly dominating.
The ability to step up and perform better than you normally do when it matters most isn't important?
It's not the rings, per se, at least it isn't for me. It's performing during the most pressure packed time, facing the best teams (and, ergo, hitters), in front of all the world, and utterly dominating.
The ability to step up and perform better than you normally do when it matters most isn't important?
Oh, and i'm a Dodgers fan, not an Angels fan. So in the end, screw Percy, its all about Gagne
04-14-04, 11:51 PM
#46
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Originally posted by fumanstan
I think calling Rivera a better reliever then Percival based on his post season performance and world series rings is a poor argument. I think thats equivalent to saying Bonds is a knock lower because he hasn't won a ring. You can't fault a player for having fewer chances.
Based on the regular season stats, i still think Rivera is better. But i can see how an argument can be made that Percival is right up there. But like others have said, this is the top 5 closers today... so no, Percival shouldn't be up there.
I think calling Rivera a better reliever then Percival based on his post season performance and world series rings is a poor argument. I think thats equivalent to saying Bonds is a knock lower because he hasn't won a ring. You can't fault a player for having fewer chances.
Based on the regular season stats, i still think Rivera is better. But i can see how an argument can be made that Percival is right up there. But like others have said, this is the top 5 closers today... so no, Percival shouldn't be up there.
Could Percival have matched him? Perhaps. Has he matched him -- absolutely not.
04-15-04, 12:03 AM
#48
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Originally posted by Bushdog
First of all, winning champtionships matters. But not my argument. Look at how he performed in post-season, that's what matters. He's been dominant.
Could Percival have matched him? Perhaps. Has he matched him -- absolutely not.
First of all, winning champtionships matters. But not my argument. Look at how he performed in post-season, that's what matters. He's been dominant.
Could Percival have matched him? Perhaps. Has he matched him -- absolutely not.
Don't get me wrong, i still think Rivera is better, and of course you can't overlook his postseason performance. But i just don't see how you can use that as a comparsion when its so skewed. It's like debating whose better, Kobe or Tracy McGrady, and giving the edge to Kobe simply because he's won while ignoring the fact that he's had Shaq. (Sorry, NBA fan and thats the best example that comes to mind)
Last edited by fumanstan; 04-15-04 at 12:08 AM.
04-15-04, 05:25 AM
#50
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Good heavens, people, the thread is titled:
Who ARE the top 5 baseball closers today?
ARE means present tense.
Percival has had a great career, no one is arguing that. But that is NOT the question. Until Troy can demonstrate that he's 100% healthy and back to the old Percival we all remember from 2001, he's not in the top 5. Although, considering he has a degenerative hip, that's gonna be a pretty amazing feat.
As for Trevor Hoffman, IMO, his days of being an elite closer are over. In fact, I think the Padres should consider ending the "Hells Bells" ritual this year. He's still a very good closer, perhaps in the top dozen or so, but barely, and the Padres would be wise to buy out his $6M option year for 2005.
Who ARE the top 5 baseball closers today?
ARE means present tense.
Percival has had a great career, no one is arguing that. But that is NOT the question. Until Troy can demonstrate that he's 100% healthy and back to the old Percival we all remember from 2001, he's not in the top 5. Although, considering he has a degenerative hip, that's gonna be a pretty amazing feat.
As for Trevor Hoffman, IMO, his days of being an elite closer are over. In fact, I think the Padres should consider ending the "Hells Bells" ritual this year. He's still a very good closer, perhaps in the top dozen or so, but barely, and the Padres would be wise to buy out his $6M option year for 2005.
Last edited by DarkElf; 04-15-04 at 05:30 AM.
