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White Sox / A's swap closers

Old 12-03-02, 01:30 PM
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White Sox / A's swap closers

http://espn.go.com/mlb/news/2002/1203/1470567.html

The White Sox traded reliever Keith Foulke, catcher Mark Johnson and minor league pitcher Joe Valentine to the Athletics on Tuesday for closer Billy Koch and two minor leaguers, ESPN's Peter Gammons reports.

The Athletics also receive cash in the deal.

Both Koch and Foulke are established major league closers, although Foulke lost his job for a long stretch last season. Koch was 11-4 with 44 saves and a 3.27 ERA in his lone season with Oakland. Foulke finished with 11 saves and a 2.90 ERA.

Foulke saved 76 games during the 2000-01 seasons but lost the job early last season. He was one of three pitchers to fill the role with the White Sox in 2002.

Johnson hit .209 for the White Sox with four home runs and 18 RBI in 263 at-bats. Valentine went 4-1 with 36 saves and a 1.96 ERA for Double-A Birmingham last season.

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Anyone else think the White Sox are stealing here? Foulke makes $6 million now after arbitration, Koch makes $2.5 million. Foulke lost his job last year and had 11 saves, Koch had 44. Foulke is 30, Koch is 27.
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Old 12-03-02, 01:55 PM
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I think the A's see a lot in Valentine and have him as their closer of the future. Foulke will eventually be a setup guy, me thinks.
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Old 12-03-02, 01:58 PM
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Re: White Sox / A's swap closers

Originally posted by Meatpants
Anyone else think the White Sox are stealing here? Foulke makes $6 million now after arbitration, Koch makes $2.5 million. Foulke lost his job last year and had 11 saves, Koch had 44. Foulke is 30, Koch is 27.
This is a horrible trade for the White Sox. Foulke lost his job after a coplue of bad outings but the second half of the season his ERA was under 1. If we had a manager who knew what he was doing he would of had his job back. Koch is up for arbitration after this seaon anyway so he'll be looking for a deal around 8 million a year after this upcoming season. Kenny Williams also threw in 1 million and a decent young arm also. Bad move.
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Old 12-03-02, 02:39 PM
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Koch threw 93.2 innings this year in 84 games, can you say over-used? Not very good numbers for Oakland Colisseum either.
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Old 12-03-02, 02:50 PM
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Like in almost every Billy Beane deal has made, the propect will end up being the best player in the deal and the A's will get the better of the trade. Again.
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Old 12-03-02, 03:36 PM
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Great trade for the A's. Koch sucks and Foulke should have been the closer for the Sox the 2nd half of the year.
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Old 12-03-02, 04:24 PM
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It's nice to see an organization that looks behind the numbers, and isn't afraid to pull the trigger. As a Tigers' fan, I can only hope their organization takes the cue and doesn't sign the next Craig Paquette, Dean Palmer, or Dmitri Young.
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Old 12-03-02, 04:35 PM
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hello, my name is dan, and I'm a White Sox fan.


feel bad for me?



getting closer to jumping ship, not much good going on there, sending Durham to the A's was dumb, this is dumb, perhaps we could trade Konerko for for David Justice or something to sweeten this!
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Old 12-03-02, 08:06 PM
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Originally posted by db27
hello, my name is dan, and I'm a White Sox fan.


feel bad for me?



getting closer to jumping ship, not much good going on there, sending Durham to the A's was dumb, this is dumb, perhaps we could trade Konerko for for David Justice or something to sweeten this!


I know how you feel. It's getting to the point we can't laugh at Cub fans anymore.
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Old 12-03-02, 11:49 PM
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Yeah, you even hired Bruce Kimm
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Old 12-04-02, 02:46 AM
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The White Sox and Royals = farm system for cheap talent for the A's.
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Old 12-04-02, 05:37 AM
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A's = farm system for expensive talent for many teams.

Koch isn't that great and he is getting too expensive, another good move by Beane. They still aren't getting out of the ALDS though. Heh heh heh.
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Old 12-04-02, 10:29 AM
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I'm glad to see Keith Choke go. He's the reason Buerhle didn't get 20 wins last year. Any Sox fans out there remember the 5-run lead he blew against the Yankees? That one still burns. He had a good ERA the second half only because he wasn't the closer.

On the other hand, I'm not a huge fan of Koch either. Tommy John surgery + 100mph fastballs = disaster waiting to happen.

Why can't they disclose who the other 2 minor leaguers that go with Koch until after the Dec 16 meetings? They were able to mention Joe Valentine and I don't think he's every played in the bigs for the Sox.
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Old 12-04-02, 02:24 PM
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Originally posted by El Scorcho
I think the A's see a lot in Valentine and have him as their closer of the future. Foulke will eventually be a setup guy, me thinks.
Valentine is a great prospect. After Foulke's year is up in 2003, he'll move onto somewhere in free agencey and Valentine takes over as closer.

This will bring up another debate/discussion... the Rule V draft.
Rule V draft is a detriment to a players development. Why? Because the Rule V is not being used for what it is meant for. The Rule V point is to prevent teams from keeping players who are ready to play in the majors but instead they're in the minors (and off the 40 man roster) simply because they are blocked at a position. It's bad the way teams use the Rule V draft.

Why I bring this up...
Last season, the Detroit Tigers had 2 Rule V picks (Jeff Farnsworth and Joe Valentine) and Phil Garner decided to trim one of the Rule V off the 25 man roster after spring training and he decided to keep Jeff Farnsworth. Well anyways, Farnsworth had no business being in the Major Leagues and should have been in AAA. Now if Phil Garner was smart, the same thing would have happened with Joe Valentine who should have been kept (instead Terry Pearson, yeah thats what - who?, gets a spot on the roster) who had no business being in the Major League either. The Rule V should just require the team to keep the player on the 40 man roster and not kill his development because the team has to keep the guy on the 25 man roster.
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Old 12-04-02, 03:14 PM
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Why does everyone think this is so bad for the Sox? Their farm system has a dozen Joe Valentines, and I think installing him automatically as the 2004 closer is wishful thinking. One of the guys the Sox are getting back is Neil Cotts, who struck out 178 in 137 innings. Is he guaranteed to be the next Roger Clemens?

The Sox weren't going to resign Foulke after this year, so they traded him for a guy with 4 straight years of big-time closing experience. I think it's an even deal.
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Old 12-04-02, 10:07 PM
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Originally posted by rabbit77
Why can't they disclose who the other 2 minor leaguers that go with Koch until after the Dec 16 meetings? They were able to mention Joe Valentine and I don't think he's every played in the bigs for the Sox.
Heard Kenny Williams on the Dan, Jurko, and Harry show......theres some rule about not being able to name players in trades because minor league rosters are frozen till that date. Joe Valentine, though he never played for the Sox, was on there 40 man roster, so he was named in the deal.

Koch, is eligible for abitration, but 8 million....no way in hell. I don't see him getting anywhere near Foulke's 6 mil.

Watching Foulke implode in key situations was never fun....its easy to get saves in September when the teams you're playing have been out of it longer than you have.

Koch on the mound is a better situation than Marte or Osuna who aren't really closeres to begin with.

All things considered, we're still better off than the Cubs....just don't tell them that because apparently Don Baylor is donning an S on his chest and getting the cubs an extra 40 wins a season all by his lonesome.
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Old 12-05-02, 01:21 PM
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Ahh, Sox fans. Don't even know who the Cubs manager is, but they're the true baseball fans. Yeah, that's it.
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Old 12-05-02, 07:46 PM
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Originally posted by leepyswetr
Ahh, Sox fans. Don't even know who the Cubs manager is, but they're the true baseball fans. Yeah, that's it.
How can the Sox fans not know who the Cubs manager is.....its not like the local media actually covers the Sox! Cubs this, Cubs that.....barf!
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Old 12-05-02, 10:27 PM
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Originally posted by clemente

How can the Sox fans not know who the Cubs manager is.....its not like the local media actually covers the Sox! Cubs this, Cubs that.....barf!
All things considered, we're still better off than the Cubs....just don't tell them that because apparently Don Baylor is donning an S on his chest and getting the cubs an extra 40 wins a season all by his lonesome.
There you have it.
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Old 12-05-02, 11:35 PM
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Originally posted by leepyswetr
Ahh, Sox fans. Don't even know who the Cubs manager is, but they're the true baseball fans. Yeah, that's it.
We don't consider the Cubs a baseball team.
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Old 12-06-02, 08:51 PM
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Dusty Baker, Don Baylor...they practically are the same guy!!!!

(Mental error....but seriously, aside from having just managed a winning team, and the other having most recently managed The Cub, there the same guy!!!)
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Old 12-07-02, 02:13 AM
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A couple people seem to be doubting Foulke some. Yeah, he had a rough patch early in the year, but he wasn't horrible, and by years end his numbers were there.

Kind of reminds me of John Smoltz's year. Except Atlanta stuck with Smoltz (and got him a ton more save ops). I'm not saying Foulke is as good as Smoltz, but he pitched fine last year, and if you think he coulnd't handle the closer role I'd point to:
1) His previous success as a closer
2) The fact that pitching in the 7th and 8th or a close game can often be as pressure-loaded, if not more so than closing a game.
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Old 12-07-02, 03:35 AM
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Originally posted by Jericho
A couple people seem to be doubting Foulke some. Yeah, he had a rough patch early in the year, but he wasn't horrible, and by years end his numbers were there.

Kind of reminds me of John Smoltz's year. Except Atlanta stuck with Smoltz (and got him a ton more save ops). I'm not saying Foulke is as good as Smoltz, but he pitched fine last year, and if you think he coulnd't handle the closer role I'd point to:
1) His previous success as a closer
2) The fact that pitching in the 7th and 8th or a close game can often be as pressure-loaded, if not more so than closing a game.
That's what happens when you have morons running a team. Foulke could have closed but Manuel was to busy stroking the egos of losers like Royce Clayton, bashing Frank Thomas, and coming up with a new lineup everyday to pay attention to anyone else on the team.
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Old 12-07-02, 05:06 PM
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http://baseballprospectus.com/news/20021203daily.shtml

Baseball Prospectus agrees, Oakland got a steal.

Billy Beane rides again: Billy Koch, Proven Closer, has been wrapped up with two minor leaguers we haven't heard about yet and traded to the White Sox for Keith Foulke, Mark Johnson, Joe Valentine, and cash.

Keith Foulke rules. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise -- the line that he "was a closer who lost his job for most of the year" overlooks entirely the fact that he was taken out of the role not because he sucked, but because he had a couple of bad outings in a row and his manager was stupid. He's been one of baseball's best relievers since 1999 (and he threw 105 innings that year!). Koch... Koch hasn't.

I'd love to see the A's grant Foulke his wish and see if he can start. Foulke's wanted to start for years and he's got the stuff to do it. He's a guy who fell into a closer label and hasn't been able to get it off since, not a natural closer type like Koch, a guy with a 100-mph heater and not a lot else. If Beane can get a Derek Lowe v2002-style performance out of Foulke he'd have baseball's best rotation by far next year, even if it read Hudson-Zito-Mulder-Foulke-Bower. Even if he doesn't, Foulke's going to be a significant upgrade on Koch in the closer role, which is the safe decision.

Mark Johnson's a guy with good minor league lines that hasn't done much in his service time in the bigs, in no small part because the White Sox spend most of their time complaining about what he's not -- a crappy hitter like Josh Paul. In Oakland, he's likely to share catching duties with Ramon Hernandez, and Johnson may well develop some of the promise he's flashed in the past. It's a case where the change in scenery may make all the difference in the path his career takes. At his best, Mark Johnson's not a top-flight catcher. But he could easily be a quality upgrade on the cheap.

Foulke's under contract for $6M in 2003. Koch is arb-eligible, and will make more than $4M, win or lose, with the cash in the deal probably making up most of the difference. The worst part of it is, Koch will also be arb-eligible the following season, and he'll cost even more than that then, assuming the Sox don't go off the deep end and given him a multi-year deal. As if the A's needed anything else in their favor on this deal, they can try to leverage something where they allow Foulke to start (something he's wanted to do for years) in exchange for his signing a sweetheart contract after 2003, or they can let him go as a free agent and take the resurrected draft pick compensation for him.
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Old 12-08-02, 01:14 AM
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One things sure about baseball....
Nobody wins in a trade during the offseason.

Let's talk next September (and the one after that) and then we'll decide a winner.
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