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NFL - Oct. 27th

Old 10-27-02, 08:35 AM
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NFL - Oct. 27th

Pittsburgh vs. Baltimore 1:00 PM ET
Detroit vs. Buffalo 1:00 PM ET
Tampa Bay vs. Carolina 1:00 PM ET
Tennessee vs. Cincinnati 1:00 PM ET
Seattle vs. Dallas 1:00 PM ET
Oakland vs. Kansas City 1:00 PM ET
Chicago vs. Minnesota 1:00 PM ET
Atlanta vs. New Orleans 1:00 PM ET
Cleveland vs. N.Y. Jets 1:00 PM ET
Arizona vs. San Francisco 4:05 PM ET
Houston vs. Jacksonville 4:15 PM ET
Denver vs. New England 4:15 PM ET
Indianapolis vs. Washington 8:30 PM ET

Bye: Green Bay, St. Louis, Miami, San Diego

Monday: N.Y. Giants vs. Philadelphia

Last edited by zak52; 10-27-02 at 08:39 AM.
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Old 10-27-02, 11:18 AM
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Let's go Broncos!
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Old 10-27-02, 12:18 PM
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Jeff Blake is starting for the Ravens today. Ray Lewis is also out again. I think he will give the Ravens a better chance at beating the Steelers than Redman would. I honestly don't see the Ravens beating the Steelers either way but I hope i'm wrong.
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Old 10-27-02, 01:31 PM
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Great catch by Plaxico on the fade. Pittsburgh is looking real good early.
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Old 10-27-02, 02:33 PM
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Watching Michael Vick today I'm really glad that the Chargers didn't take him.

He's a great athlete, but a below average quarterback. If not for his running ability he wouldn't even be in the NFL. Don't get me wrong, he could still become an average or even above average passer, but right now he isn't. He looked very confused and rattled on a lot of those plays.

Drew Brees, on the other hand, is an above average passer, and a very good quarterback. He may not have the athletic ability Vick has, but he's a much better quarterback right now.

When you look at that trade, which essentially was:

Michael Vick for Drew Brees, Ladanian Tomlinson, and Tim Dwight

which side do you think got the better end of that deal?

Kind of a no-brainer, eh?


Still, Vick is already better as a passer than I expected him to be (he had very little experience in college throwing passes - his total number of passes in his career is about the same as 6 or 7 games for most QB's in passing offenses), so both teams may end up very happy in the end.

But right now? Advantage Chargers on that deal....
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Old 10-27-02, 02:36 PM
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as a falcons fan.. i was harder on them for drafting vick then most anyone..
but from watching him this season.. i have been shocked..
all I thought he had was his running ability.. but he also makes extremely clutch decisions, has a cannon for an arm, and throws pin point passes..
anyone that disrespects his passing ability either has a bias against him, or hasnt watched him play.
this is only vick's 8th start and he is already a really good quarterback.. its scary to think of how great he can be.

below average quarterback??
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Old 10-27-02, 02:44 PM
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Originally posted by twikoff


below average quarterback??
Exactly what I thought.
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Old 10-27-02, 02:44 PM
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starting the day.. emmitt needed 93 yards

in the 3rd qtr. he has a total of 55 for the game

needs 38 more yards to break the record
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Old 10-27-02, 02:53 PM
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Re: Michael Vick...

I have been watching him today, and like I said, on MANY plays he looked rattled and confused.

On others he looked great.

That is called inconsitency, which is the trait of a below average qarterback - as a passer.

Now he does make some great plays, but he still isn't as far developed as a passer as he needs to be to be a truly great quarterback. Like I said, he is a GREAT athlete, and may yet develop into an above average passer - but he's not there yet.

He is certainly better as a passer than I expected him to be, but after hearing how great he's been this year, and finally getting a chance to watch him play today, I was surprised at how he looked kind of like Jim Everett on several plays. I'll never question his arm, or his accuracy - just his ability to read defenses and make the right play on a consistent basis.

Drew Brees can do that.

So my point was, since the Chargers got Brees AND Tomlinson AND they got Tim Dwight in the deal, it looks like the Chargers got the better end of it.

And like I said, the way Vick has progressed he may yet become an above average quarterback (which means passing AND reading defenses). If that happens then both the Chargers AND the Falcons will be happy.

(I'll tell you what, though - if Vick was on the Chargers - with NO Ladanian Tomlinson and NO Tim Dwight - he would be struggling a whole lot more than he is now. The Falcons have done a great job of supporting him and giving him a system that he can work well in.)
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Old 10-27-02, 02:58 PM
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Originally posted by B5Erik
Re: Michael Vick...

I have been watching him today
Im sure that the 30 minutes of a game you have seen of him today makes your conclusion that is a below average quarterback much more substantial than the 7 1/2 games that the rest of us have seen, that have decided he is a very good quarterback.

you really should be an NFL scout if you can judge talent that quick
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Old 10-27-02, 03:03 PM
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Originally posted by twikoff
starting the day.. emmitt needed 93 yards

in the 3rd qtr. he has a total of 55 for the game

needs 38 more yards to break the record
80 yards

13 to go.. about to start the 4th qtr
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Old 10-27-02, 03:13 PM
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Originally posted by twikoff

you really should be an NFL scout if you can judge talent that quick
You're right - I should be!

Seriously, though - he got confused and rattled by an average defense. Are you telling me that a great quarterback gets rattled and confused that easily?

Even when Brees makes mistakes he NEVER looks rattled or confused - he always knows where he wants to go with the ball. He knows how to check down through his receivers, and he knows where to throw the ball, and when NOT to throw the ball (or throw it away).

I have NEVER seen any of the "great" quarterbacks look confused or rattled.

Look, Vick has a harder time reading defenses than a lot of other quarterbacks. He also threw only 1/5 the passes that most QB's do in college, so that was to be expected.

That doesn't make him a bust, or even a bad quarterback. It just means he's got more learning to do before he becomes a great quarterback. He gets by right now thanks to his athletic ability - but if he keeps learning, that ability will only be a bonus.

Arm strength and accuracy alone do not make for a great quarterback. Reading defenses and decision making ability is what makes for a great quarterback.

I seem to recall a guy who came out of Notre Dame who the "experts" thought had a weak arm and average accuracy.

That was some guy named Joe Montana. He didn't become great because of arm strength - but because of his ability to read defenses and make the right decisions.

Vick is better in that area than he has any right to be at this stage of his career - but he still isn't "great" at it.
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Old 10-27-02, 03:13 PM
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Originally posted by twikoff
80 yards

13 to go.. about to start the 4th qtr
I just flipped over and they showed Emmitt taking off his pads, did something happen?
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Old 10-27-02, 03:22 PM
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Originally posted by JNielsen
I just flipped over and they showed Emmitt taking off his pads, did something happen?
I guess not, he just broke the record.
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Old 10-27-02, 03:25 PM
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yep..
i see his total for the day is now 94 yards

so... he is 1 yard over the record now?
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Old 10-27-02, 03:38 PM
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Emmitt is several yards over the record now - and he just scored his 150th touchdown!

Big day for him!
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Old 10-27-02, 03:50 PM
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Originally posted by B5Erik

Seriously, though - he got confused and rattled by an average defense. Are you telling me that a great quarterback gets rattled and confused that easily?
#1 sign of a rattled or confused QB would be interceptions

your watching the game... how many interceptions has vick thrown today?
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Old 10-27-02, 03:52 PM
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everyone did pick KC to beat oakland.. right?
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Old 10-27-02, 04:01 PM
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and despite emmitt breaking the record and scoring a touchdown
the boys still manage to lose the game

seattle wins 17-14
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Old 10-27-02, 04:11 PM
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The Ravens tried to come back from a 28-3 halftime deficit. Penalties and turnovers killed them though. Final score Steelers 31 Ravens 18.
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Old 10-27-02, 04:15 PM
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Originally posted by twikoff
#1 sign of a rattled or confused QB would be interceptions

your watching the game... how many interceptions has vick thrown today?
How many downfield passes did vick complete?

Here's the total - 5. (Updated for end of game totals - 6)

SEVEN of his 12 completions have been dump off passes to his runnig back or tight end. (Which is fine with me, I've got Crumpler as a fill in tight end on my fantasy team today. )

(Totals at end of game 10 of 16 completions were dump off passes)

When he gets rattled he tries to run rather than to force a pass - that's where being a great athlete has allowed him to succeed where a QB without that ability to run would be a failure.

He has also been sacked several times today when he couldn't read the defense, and couldn't find a lane to run in.

Why doesn't Vick have any interceptions? Because he doesn't throw many downfield passes. The defense hasn't gotten many opportunities to pick off the ball because he hasn't thrown it into coverage much.

No other QB who only threw 15-20 passes a game would not be considered a great QB. Completing 16 passes- with 10 of them dump off passes - does not make for a great QB.

He is a GREAT athlete. I've been saying that all along. But he is not yet a great quarterback because he cannot read defenses as well as he needs to to reach that level.

A great QB completes a hell of a lot more than 5 passes to his wide receivers.

A great athlete doesn't necessarily need to in order to win games.

I'm not bagging on Vick as a football player - he is a great football player, but I'm just pointing out that he has a lot of developing to do in order to be a great quarterback.

Last edited by B5Erik; 10-27-02 at 04:27 PM.
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Old 10-27-02, 04:25 PM
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wheew.. dunn tries to give away the game with a fumble to let new orleans take the lead
but vick is very cool and concentrated in driving the falcons down the field for the winning fg as time ran out
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Old 10-27-02, 04:25 PM
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Originally posted by B5Erik

When he gets rattled he tries to run rather than to force a pass - that's where being a great athlete has allowed him to succeed where a QB without that ability to run would be a failure.
He tries to run rather than force a pass. Isn't this a good thing?

He has also been sacked several times today when he couldn't read the defense, and couldn't find a lane to run in.
Uh.. Or maybe his receivers weren't open.

Why doesn't Vick have any interceptions? Because he doesn't throw many downfield passes. The defense hasn't gotten many opportunities to pick off the ball because he hasn't thrown it into coverage much.
He doesn't throw into coverage much. That's suppose to be a bad thing.

No other QB who only threw 15-18 passes a game would not be considered a great QB. Completing 12 passes- with 7 of them dump off passes - does not make for a great QB.

He is a GREAT athlete. I've been saying that all along. But he is not yet a great quarterback because he cannot read defenses as well as he needs to to reach that level.

A great QB completes a hell of a lot more than 5 passes to his wide receivers.

A great athlete doesn't necessarily need to in order to win games.

I'm not bagging on Vick as a football player - he is a great football player, but I'm just pointing out that he has a lot of developing to do in order to be a great quarterback.
Vick does what he has to. Which hasn't been too bad so far.
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Old 10-27-02, 04:28 PM
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before criticizing vick for not throwing to his receivers
look at the receiving corp that the falcons have.. there is noone there..
the receiving corp is pretty much a joke, but vick makes the best of it

Im sure if he had a holt, harrison, bruce, owens, moss, etc... he would throw downfield alot more

in my opinion.. a great quarterback is one that leads his teams to wins.. the falcons have a crappy team, but vick has done an exceptional job at making them competitive this season
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Old 10-27-02, 04:39 PM
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And here's the thing - I never said Vick was a bad player.

I said he was a GREAT football player.

Just not a great quarterback.

Drew Brees is a much better quarterback than Michael Vick. Does that make Michael Vick a bad football player? Hell no!

I don't get why you think I'm bagging on Michael Vick.

He isn't asked to throw downfield much, and that's what I meant by throwing into coverage - he doesn't throw to the areas where the DB's are - he throws mostly short, safe passes - because the coaches know that he can't read the defenses well enough to run that kind of an offense. They call the right plays to keep him out of trouble. They give him a simplified passing scheme.

Without his running ability the Falcons would be dead in the water running a passing shceme that simple and conservative.

But he DOES have that ability, so they can develop his ability to read defenses as the season goes along.

Can you honestly say that ANY great quarterbacks only completed 5 or 6 passes per game to their wide receivers? Of course not. And that's part of the criteria for what makes a great quarterback - after all, the position is largely about passing the ball downfield.

Can Vick beome great at reading defenses and getting the ball downfield to his receivers? Possibly - hell, at this pace I'd say that it's likely.

But my point in the beginning was that the Chargers did the right thing in trading the number one pick (Vick) for the opportunity to get Ladanian Tomlinson AND Drew Brees (and they got Tim Dwight in the trade as well).

The Chargers have a much better deveoped quarterback in Brees AND they've got one of the best running backs in the league. Not to mention one of the fastest guys in the league, and a great 3rd down receiver, in Tim Dwight.

Vick isn't worth all of that. Not yet anyway....
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