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NFL - Oct. 27th

Old 10-28-02, 10:08 AM
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Vick is the man! That 32 yard run was amazing.
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Old 10-28-02, 10:12 AM
  #52  
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Originally posted by Terrell

Actually, TJ Duckett has been tremendous, and better than Dunn this year. But Dunn did much better today, if the ding-a-ling could only hold onto the ball.
68 rushes, 273 yards, 2 TDs; 6 rec., 50 yards is your definition of tremendous?

Whether or not you think he's tremendous, the Falcons were boneheads to have drafted him after signing Dunn. What's the point of drafting a running back in the first round if you have Dunn signed to a multiyear, multimillion dollar deal? Like I said, they should have drafted a wide receiver instead.

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Old 10-28-02, 10:19 AM
  #53  
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Originally posted by B5Erik


I wonder who Houston will beat next....
j

Well, we've got Cincy next week....
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Old 10-28-02, 10:57 AM
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Originally posted by Terrell
Find me one analyst that agrees with anything B5Erik says, and I'll maybe try seeing it the other way. Well forget that, because it's not even debateable in my opinion.
Do you honestly believe that dumping the ball off to running backs and tight ends is as difficult as throwing the ball downfield 20+ yards? I mean, seriously, do any of you think that Vick can read defenses, check down to the next receiver, and make the right decisions as a passer as well as Brees can?

If he could he wouldn't be throwing only 5 or 6 passes downfield a game.

If he could, then the Falcons would be calling for more passes downfield, and they wouldn't have simplified the offense.

If he could, he wouldn't have to run as often as he does, and with his athletic ability he wouldn't get sacked as often as he did yesterday. He runs when he can't read the defense or find the open man. That is a smart thing to do, but it does show that he is still learning.

And that is exactly my point.

Brees has the experience from college that Vick doesn't, so of course he can do those things better.

And that was all I ever said. Brees is a better passing quarterback right now because of that.

There have been tons of guys with great arms, with great accuracy who couldn't make it in the NFL because they couldn't read defenses, and they couldn't make the right decisions.

Vick has a great arm, and has very good accuracy. But what is best about Vick is that he isn't forcing the ball into coverage when he can't find an open receiver - because he can run so damn well. Vick is learning the right way - he isn't being asked to do anything that he can't do, and he is succeeding because of it.

And I only compared Vick to Brees because those two guys will be forever linked, like Peyton Manning and Ryan Leaf, like Drew Bledsoe and Rick Mirer - only this time it looks like both guys are going to be very successful.


(By the way, no one has addressed my specific points when trying to ridicule my statements. Vick has thrown the fewest passes by far of any starting QB, Vick has completed the smallest percentage of passes to wide receivers of any QB in the league, and Vick's production as a quarterback is by far the smallest in the league among starting QB's. And none of that has hurt Vick's effectiveness as a quarterback thanks to his amazing athleticism. I've been saying all along that Vick is an amazing football player, but somehow people keep missing that. Bottom line - If Vick couldn't run the way he can he would not be starting in the NFL. We all know that. Vick was not drafted because of his passing numbers, because there hardly were any. But Vick is special because he may well be the best all around athlete ever to play QB in the NFL.)

The funny thing is, I never expected this to turn into this huge debate. I was getting a chance to see a whole game with Vick for the first time, and he did not live up to the hype as a passer. Maybe I've been spoiled in San Diego, because this is one of the places where the passing game was best utilized (the Chargers of the early to mid-60's, the Aztecs under Don Coryell and Claude Gilbert, and, of course, Air Coryell with the Chargers, not to mention the Aztecs of 1995-96 and this year) - so my expectations of quarterbacks and their abilities to make the right decisions and get the ball downfield to their receivers is rather high....
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Old 10-28-02, 11:21 AM
  #55  
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Originally posted by B5Erik

The funny thing is, I never expected this to turn into this huge debate.
well.. when you called vick a below average quarterback.. you had to know that noone else would agree with you.. so of course it was going to open up a debate
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Old 10-28-02, 11:24 AM
  #56  
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Originally posted by immortal_zeus
68 rushes, 273 yards, 2 TDs; 6 rec., 50 yards is your definition of tremendous?

Whether or not you think he's tremendous, the Falcons were boneheads to have drafted him after signing Dunn. What's the point of drafting a running back in the first round if you have Dunn signed to a multiyear, multimillion dollar deal? Like I said, they should have drafted a wide receiver instead.


Seriously. Since when did 'tremendous' become a synonym of 'average.'?
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Old 10-28-02, 11:35 AM
  #57  
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Originally posted by twikoff
well.. when you called vick a below average quarterback.. you had to know that noone else would agree with you.. so of course it was going to open up a debate
Honestly, I don't personally know a single person who thinks Vick is an above average QB from a passing standpoint.

His numbers are so far below average - with the exception of completion percentage & interceptions - that I didn't think that there would be this much debate.

If it was ANY other QB with those numbers everyone would be saying that the guy should be benched. The QB position is about productivity - more is better, more yards, more completions, more touchdowns. A QB has to be able to read defenses and throw downfield consistently to be above average. To do that he needs to be able to read defenses and make good decisions. Vick isn't there yet as far as that goes - and there is plenty of evidence from his stats to back that up (particularly his lack of passes downfield, and his frequency of runs on called pass plays).

I just took Vick's running ability out of the equation because that is a separate issue.

And on each post I said that Vick was an amazing athlete, and a great all around football player. That part seemed to get overlooked each time....
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Old 10-28-02, 11:46 AM
  #58  
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Originally posted by B5Erik
Honestly, I don't personally know a single person who thinks Vick is an above average QB from a passing standpoint.

His numbers are so far below average - with the exception of completion percentage & interceptions - that I didn't think that there would be this much debate.


Hard to make this argument when he is 2nd in the NFC in QB rating, has a 62% comp pct and has not thrown a single pick. Does he throw fewer times than any other starting QB? Of course, and this would be expected given his ability to run and his very weak receiving corps. However, when he does throw, he has a cannon and he has excellent accuracy.

I know this...if I am starting a franchise, I would pick Vick in a heartbeat over Drew Brees. With the exception of McNabb, I would pick Vick over anyone in the NFL right now.
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Old 10-28-02, 12:01 PM
  #59  
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Originally posted by B5Erik
Do you honestly believe that dumping the ball off to running backs and tight ends is as difficult as throwing the ball downfield 20+ yards? I mean, seriously, do any of you think that Vick can read defenses, check down to the next receiver, and make the right decisions as a passer as well as Brees can?

If he could he wouldn't be throwing only 5 or 6 passes downfield a game.
Dude,

Vick-11.24 yds per completion
Brees-10.49 yds per completion

Your logic is flawed. Throwing a ball to your backs is a result of something called progression, meaning you looked for your primary and secondary, and they were covered. Meaning Vick has not been throwing into coverage. You don't design a play (unless it's a screen or something similar) where your back is the primary receiver. I have given you facts that support Vick being as good as Brees, and you just back it up with bogus assumptions.
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Old 10-28-02, 12:04 PM
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I knew we shouldn't havr run Bledsoe out of town for this punk Brady.

Death to Brady and the dent in his chin!

I pay $2000 a year to watch this crud??
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Old 10-28-02, 12:42 PM
  #61  
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Quake - judging from yesterday's game (which is just one game) Vick was throwing a lot of designed passes to the running backs & tight ends.

There was no progression - he took the ball, took 3 or 4 steps, and threw to the receiver without looking downfield. That's a designed play. And that's what I saw for almost all of his passes.

Do you REALLY think that a guy who threw 1/10th the number of passes that Brees did in college can read defenses as well as Brees can?

The logic THERE is really flawed....

And it doesn't necessarily have to be Brees. It could be Tom Brady last year or any other QB starting his first year in the NFL.

The coaches in Atlanta are protecting Vick with the simplified offense and conservative play calling, so his numbers are VERY misleading.

Brees is being asked to be a world class QB in a more complicated offense, and is making big plays game after game - with his arm.

Vick is making HUGE plays game after game - with his feet.

I'm just separating Vick's running ability from his lack of experience reading defenses and throwing the ball.
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Old 10-28-02, 12:46 PM
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Originally posted by namrufmot
I knew we shouldn't havr run Bledsoe out of town for this punk Brady.

Death to Brady and the dent in his chin!

I pay $2000 a year to watch this crud??
Hey, it's not just Brady. The running game is pretty bad in New England this year, which lets the defense key on the passing game - and any QB would have trouble with that.

Plus the Patriots' defense seems to have gotten very porous as well, forcing the Pats into passing situations so the opposing defenses can focus almost entirely on the pass.

Don't count the Pats out yet.

But if they lose 2 or more games in November they will be in BIG trouble...
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Old 10-28-02, 12:48 PM
  #63  
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But again, I don't see anything supporting your statement except for your assumptions after watching one game.
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Old 10-28-02, 12:58 PM
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There were just things that I saw yesterday, when combined with his statistics this year give a pretty clear picture of Vick's strengths and weaknesses.

Getting rattled and confused by the defense (he got "happy feet" on several plays and looked like Jim Everett trying to figure out what to do, and on almost all of those plays Vick ended up taking off for a run or getting sacked) - that's one red flag.

Only completing 6 passes to his receivers downfield is another.

And you combine all of that with his lack of college experience as a passer and it is a VERY safe conclusion that he is struggling a bit reading defenses, and has a lot yet to learn.

A safe and realistic conclusion considering his lack of experience as a passer.
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Old 10-28-02, 01:19 PM
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Originally posted by B5Erik
Honestly, I don't personally know a single person who thinks Vick is an above average QB from a passing standpoint.
And how many of these people are Chargers fans?
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Old 10-28-02, 01:19 PM
  #66  
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Originally posted by Quake1028
Dude,

Vick-11.24 yds per completion
Brees-10.49 yds per completion

Yards per completion is a crapoy statistic that nobody even looks at. You should look at yards per attempt instead.

Vick: 7.10
Brees: 6.53

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Old 10-28-02, 01:22 PM
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Originally posted by B5Erik

Brees is being asked to be a world class QB in a more complicated offense, and is making big plays game after game - with his arm.

Give me a break. Marty-ball does not require a world class QB and it is certainly not a complicated offense. It is about as basic as you can get. I saw it 16 times last year so I think I can speak from experience. Marty-ball in Cleveland and KC was the same thing as well.

Brees is doing a great job but let's not carried away here. Marty-ball requires a game manager. Brees is well-suited to that responsibility. Is Brees capable of running a more sophisticated offense? Perhaps, but we won't know as long as he plays under Marty.

As far as comparing to Vick, Conway and Dwight put the Atlanta wideouts to shame.
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Old 10-28-02, 01:34 PM
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Originally posted by immortal_zeus
Yards per completion is a crapoy statistic that nobody even looks at. You should look at yards per attempt instead.

Vick: 7.10
Brees: 6.53

Whatever stat you want, Vick is ahead of Brees. I was just pointing this out to counter his claims that Vick is only throwing 5 yard dumpoffs to his wideouts.
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Old 10-28-02, 01:47 PM
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Originally posted by Aghama
And how many of these people are Chargers fans?
A lot of them. So what? Don't you think that Chargers fans of all people know something about the passing game?

Remember Air Coryell?

Remember the Chargers of the early to mid 60's?

And let's not forget the Aztecs passing attack - one that helped revolutionize football back in the 60's & 70's (and a passing offense that had some GREAT years in the 90's as well).

In San Diego we aren't exactly idiots when it comes to the passing game, so I don't get the reasoning for bashing Charger fans when it comes to our judgment of quarterbacks.


Hey, if you think Vick is ALREADY a great passer, and has mastered reading defenses after only throwing 150 or so passes, that's fine.

I don't think that it is particularly logical (who has EVER mastered the passing game after only a handful of passes in college and the NFL combined?), but if you honestly believe that, then I obviously won't be able to change your mind.

Like I said, I saw certain things that when combined with the stats raised a lot of red flags. Not as in "Vick isn't good," more like "Vick is still a work in progress."

Can you honestly say that you disagree with that?

Last edited by B5Erik; 10-28-02 at 02:16 PM.
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Old 10-28-02, 02:20 PM
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Originally posted by Quake1028
Whatever stat you want, Vick is ahead of Brees. I was just pointing this out to counter his claims that Vick is only throwing 5 yard dumpoffs to his wideouts.
Really? Only 6 of Vick's 15 or 16 completions yesterday were to his wide receivers.

So that means that 2/3 or so of his passes go to his running backs or tight ends.

That backs up my claim. Crumpler just happened to run 25 yards after catching his first pass, which can skew the statistics in terms of yards per attempt and yards per competion (and his backs have done a good job of yards after the catch as well).

That's what I mean when I say look deeper into the numbers.

And, as I keep TRYING to point out, I do believe that Vick is one of the best football players in the league.
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Old 10-28-02, 02:44 PM
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Originally posted by B5Erik
-Accusations of bashing Chargers fans-
I was only saying that it's not a big surprise that Chargers fans think Brees beats the snot out of Vick, just like every Falcons fan in this thread thinks the exact opposite.
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Old 10-28-02, 03:01 PM
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Here's what most Chargers fans think of Vick (from what I'm hearing).

Vick is one hell of an athlete - he may be the most athletic player at the QB position EVER.

But he still has a lot of developing to do as a passer and field general.

Not one Chargers fan that I know thinks that Brees "beats the snot out of Michael Vick." We would have loved to have been able to take the risk and pick Vick - and untested passing QB for the most part with very little experience. But after the cryin' Ryan Leaf debacle (thanks Bobby Beathard!), there was no way we were willing to sit through someone else's learning curve.

With Brees there has been almost NO learning curve, and he has been outstanding as a passer and field general.

I mean, seriously, I'd like to see some responses to this because I posed this question before.

How many of you would rather have Vick than Brees, Tomlinson, and Tim Dwight?

It was 3 for 1.

Man, the Falcons would have one hell of an offense with Brees, Tomlinson, and Dwight added to that roster. I'm just glad that we've got them here in San Diego.
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Old 10-28-02, 03:31 PM
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Originally posted by B5Erik

How many of you would rather have Vick than Brees, Tomlinson, and Tim Dwight?

Like I said in my first post, I think it was a good trade for both teams.

It's difficult to answer that question because you have to take the rest of your roster into account before you can answer.

I'm not arguing with you, but I think everybody else here is looking at the total package and not just passing. Yes, without his incredible running ability, people wouldn't be as hard up for Vick as they are, but it's difficult to split that out because that's what he's known for. He's not known as being a pocket passer the way Brees is.

Still, Vick has the potential to be frickin' great. Brees is doing a lot better than I anticipated him doing as well. In all honesty, even though Vick is emerging as a superstar, I think the Chargers came slightly ahead in the deal because I don't think Michael Vick fits Marty's brand of football. Brees can manage a game and LT can manage the clock with ball control. I don't know if Marty could handle Vick's freelancing. I also think the Chargers came ahead in the deal because even if Vick is a future HOFer and throws for 35000 yards and runs for an additional 8000, I think Brees will have a decent NFL career and LT will probably get 10000 yards rushing.

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Old 10-28-02, 03:47 PM
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Originally posted by immortal_zeus
Like I said in my first post, I think it was a good trade for both teams.

It's difficult to answer that question because you have to take the rest of your roster into account before you can answer.

I'm not arguing with you, but I think everybody else here is looking at the total package and not just passing. Yes, without his incredible running ability, people wouldn't be as hard up for Vick as they are, but it's difficult to split that out because that's what he's known for. He's not known as being a pocket passer the way Brees is.

Still, Vick has the potential to be frickin' great. Brees is doing a lot better than I anticipated him doing as well. In all honesty, even though Vick is emerging as a superstar, I think the Chargers came slightly ahead in the deal because I don't think Michael Vick fits Marty's brand of football. Brees can manage a game and LT can manage the clock with ball control. I don't know if Marty could handle Vick's freelancing. I also think the Chargers came ahead in the deal because even if Vick is a future HOFer and throws for 35000 yards and runs for an additional 8000, I think Brees will have a decent NFL career and LT will probably get 10000 yards rushing.


All true.

I also consider the deal from Atlanta's POV from a business standpoint. The Falcons were a lousy draw. They needed someone who could put people in the seats and stir up some excitement because let's face it, the Falcons are the 3rd most popular football team in Atlanta (behind GT and UGA). Michael Vick was just the answer to their attendance problems.
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