About ten years ago I bought what was then considered the best receiver on the market, the Yamaha DSP-A1 (technically an integrated amp since it doesn't have a tuner). I paid about $1800 for it at the time which was considered a very good price since it listed for $2600 and wasn't discounted much.

It has been absolutely splendid and still works like it's brand new but, of course, it's just 5.1 and doesn't decode all the newest sound formats or have HDMI.

Although I know companies such as Onkyo, Denon and Marantz make good products I am understandably partial to Yamaha because of my experience with the DSP-A1. I wanted a unit that decoded all the current sound formats and I started looking at the Yamaha RXV-1800 but I would like to spend less. The new RXV-663 seems to me almost ideal at a much lower price and also much lower than the RXV-863. As has been noted many times, the 663 has only two HDMI inputs but an inexpensive switcher from Monoprice would remedy that.

I have seen people say the 663 can be had for $400 but I can't find such a price now. I could get 12% off the $500 Best Buy price (coupon from May7-13) and I also have a $50 gift card from the HD DVD program. With tax, I could get it for about $412. But $400 with free shipping and no tax would be better plus I'd still have the gift card.

So:

(1) Is there any compelling reason to get one of the other brands rather than the Yamaha?

(2) Is there a way to get the 663 for about $400?

I appreciate any input anyone can give me and I apologize for starting a separate thread but I was hoping my questions would not be lost in a larger thread. If the mods want to merge, please do so.

I guess my question would be more to why you want to upgrade? So it doesn't have HDMI, do you really need to your receiver to do the video switching? Why not get a monoprice HDMI switcher for video switching?

And are you sure you can't find another way to get the "newest" surround? Or are you using a PS3? I'm not sure, but aren't there BD players out there with analog outputs that could be used?

Are you sure you will benefit from the newest sound formats? Is your system such that the arguable minor difference in sound will be noticeable?

Look, I got a full on media room, BD and HD and HD Dish. I understand "upgrading". But IMO there is a point where you really got to ask yourself "is it really worth it?" Or "would I seek more improvement by upgrading something else?".

I mean what I'm hearing is that your very happy with what you have. But it basically is missing two features. That's it. I question about chucking something you have that is working well, sounds great (assuming you are happy with the sound), just for two latest bells and whistles. I mean, in two years there will be another two or three "latest" bells and whistles. You going to upgrade again?

I'm using an older H/K. Sure I eye the new fancy stuff. But for the price I paid for my system, I'm extremely happy (no HDMI use a monoprice switcher for HDMI video switching). But I'm still very happy with the sound. And when I go listen to newer stuff, I'm frankly not all that impressed FOR THE MONEY DIFFERENCE (remember it is a law audio/video that the nicer the stuff you get you get a diminished return on each new upgrade).

Ok...rant over...the Yamaha fandome can talk more about your specific questions.

At present I don't yet need a video switcher. I have the HD DVD and Blu-ray players going directly into the Samsung LED DLP and I still have one HDMI input left over. I'm thinking more for the future.

I do have six analog inputs on the receiver and I have the Blu-Ray player (Samsung 1400) hooked up to it (I can change it to the HD DVD player but changing back and forth is, of course, a pain). Perhaps I don't understand but am I still missing something (e.g. Dolby Digital True HD DTS HD Master Audio) in using that (besides the two extra channels which I can live without)?

Maybe not. That's why I'm asking these questions.

I am very happy with what I've got. It's been great sound for ten years. The DSP-A1 was a beast and state of the art at the time and probably still is except for the new formats.

Sure, I guess I just always want the best (for a reasonable price) but I'm not a nut on constant upgrading and I haven't gotten a new receiver in ten years or new speakers in almost as long. I only recently got my first HDTV and even more recently the BD and HD DVD players. It just seems the Yamaha 663 is a relatively inexpensive way to upgrade to the new audio formats.

Thanks much. You have given thoughtful sensible answers and given me more to think about. I still haven't made up my mind.

Spiky or someone else can chime in, but I "thought" if you have analog out of your BD or HD and analog inputs on your receiver, then you could get the latest and greatest. But I could be wrong. And yes, if you only have one set of analog inputs, then switching would be a pain. Course, maybe the receiver still has to decode it, I'm not sure.

Also, I may be naive, but I don't like switching video thru the receiver. If you have the option of the display doing the switching, then my old school thinking, thinks that is best. And if that is not an option, then "I would think" a stand alone switcher is just as good.

I'm partial to Yamaha's also. IMO, spending a lot, is getting more then the ear can hear. I spent about $200-300 several years ago for my current unit, and it does 6.1, but no HDMI, and I swear it kick arse. It's all about speakers.

My girl friend was watching Atonement, and swore a fly buzzed her right ear. I told her that it was in the movie, and rewound for her, and again she brushed away a fly and swore it was an actual fly. After another rewind, she couldn't believe what a nice sounding HTR I have. It was a very nice compliment.

I think there is a list over in the HD forum (may be in the BR thread(s) actually), that covers what receivers will output what.

From what I recally no standalone BR player at this time will output TRUEHD and DTS-MA HD over analog. I think the Pioneer BD-30 (or something like that) is slated to (but may not be BR v2.0?). I'm sure somebody else can chime in on this.

So esentially, if the OPs TV is already handling the switching, he'd need to upgrade his BR player rather than the receiver to be most effective. Especially if there is the option of using a HDMI switcher down the line.

By the way, do those have built in IR?

Yeah, I don't think the players actually output high-rez audio via analog, yet. Certainly not MA-HD. They output the old 5.1 core, just like they do over optical. Either way would work with your A1.

My advice would be to not get rid of the A1 for a $500 replacement. Even from Yamaha, you will be stepping down in amp quality. Getting a new receiver for processing might be an idea, but make sure you get one with pre-outs. Then you can still use your better amp.

That's what I thought. I have the BD player set up with both the analog connections and coaxial digital audio out. I can choose which one is used by changing the output of the player through the set-up menu. My understanding is that if the disc has a lossless track it would be better to use the analog outs even if I only get the core. If it's just standard lossy DD or DTS I might as well use the digital out.

Is that all correct?

The A1 has 110 watts/channel and the 663 has 95. Is that really so much of a difference? Or is that the wrong way to look at it? I don't really want to have two receivers in the system, if possible.

The core of Dolby TrueHD is lossy Dolby 5.1, so there really won't be much difference unless there is a huge difference in the Dolby decoder in the A1 vs the player. Probably not much.

110 vs 95 is not the real issue. Sound quality comes from other factors. I haven't listened to either of these, at least not this decade, so it's tough to say anything, really. But I would guess that they've put a lot more into the A1 than a cheap receiver. The quality of the power supply would be one thing. The 110/95 numbers may not even match each other, they are forced to state how they rate amps so consumers are lied to, but they aren't forced to rate them all the same way.

Not about the watts, about the quality of those watts. In fact, in a truly high quality unit, you can all be ignore the watts (unless you are driving something weird by like maggies).

BTW, just curious, what speakers are you using?

Well that is certainly one way to go. Personally I disagree. IMO there are differences in sound quality amoung receivers and there are some good sounding units out there (H/K, Onkyo, not to mention awesome sounding stuff like Outlaw or separates like Krell, etc) and some not good sounding units (Sony).

But I will agree it is a matter of opinion. Some people go with features and some go with sound quality. Of course you can go both, but gets pricey.

Again, features come and go, but good sound quality, is always "in style".

Cambridge Soundworks. Not the best but as I buy many things, I think a great value for the price. I've been very happy with them.

OK, I get that and I'm not really surprised but good to know for sure.

How about PCM 5.1 uncompressed, or when it just says PCM 5.1?

Again, not really surprised. I don't doubt that the A1 was far better relative to its time than the 663 is relative to the best that's out there now. But how about compared to each other? Since so many electronic products keep getting cheaper and better is not a $500 receiver today better quality than a $500 speaker (even adjusted for inflation) ten years ago? Would I really be going way down in quality going from the A1 to the 663?

You could be.

I have a pair of KEF 103.3 speakers that are 20+ years old. But I would put them up against most new speakers today. Their a quality and quality does not go out of style.

I'd take a 10 year old quality amp against most of the new "chip" receivers in overall sound quality.

A lot of the newer stuff is about packing as much as possible in a small box. Not about sound quality. For example, I don't believe the awesome sounding Outlaw audio has HDMI.

Does anyone know what the difference is between Yamaha's RXV and HTR series? The HTR 6160 seems to be virtually identical to the RXV 663. Here's a comparison page at yamaha.com:

http://www.yamaha.com/yec/compare/De...p_items=567572

Last I knew they were identical for certain models. But the RX series goes higher and the HTR series goes lower.

They make different model numbers to sell at different types of stores, so they can all claim lowest price.

There are new digital amps that cost less and give surprisingly good sound. Panasonic receivers are an example of this. And there are a couple companies now using a form of Bob Carver's Sunfire amps, which run cool even at ridiculous wattages like 7x400wpc. Other than that, amp technology is pretty much the same as it has been for decades. And so is their pricing structure.

So would you say it wouldn't make much difference between getting the 663 or the 6160? Etronics has the 6160 for $373.45 shipped. The 663 would be a little less but it's out of stock. I have bought from Etronics before with no problems. Their ratings on the web are pretty good.

I'm still not set on this but that seems such a good price that it's worth the gamble, if that's what it is.

I'm still also open to other options. I just read Onkyo has a new generation coming out soon. Any other recommendations in that under $500 price range?

Save your money and put it towards either the new Panasonic or Sony Blu-ray players (coming out this summer and fall) that will output all the audio formats over the 7.1 analog outs. That way you can still enjoy your receiver and hear the latest and greatest audio.

The new receiver wouldn't cost any more than one of those Blu-Ray players, I assume. And the receiver will also upgrade my Toshiba A35 HD DVD player.

Also, my present receiver is only 5.1.

The new Onkyo TX-SR606 (upgrade from the 605) is out in a couple of weeks. Four HDMI inputs! J&R has it up for pre-order for $449.00 shipped. That's awfully tempting.

AFAICT, they are identical. Go to Yamaha's site, put each on a different window or tab in your browser. Flipping between the 2 doesn't change an iota of the text, even in the specs.

Onkyo's current generation is quite capable, too. There is always a new generation coming out. Unless there is something huge on the horizon, like HDMI 1.3, don't wait too many months, you'll be waiting forever. Onkyo and Yamaha are already there with HDMI 1.3 and HD audio decoding. So....waiting is becoming less appetizing.

Although at this point, trusting what anybody says about DTS compatibility may be a sign of being a complete moron.

I know what you're saying about waiting. There's always something better coming.

That's why I'm almost convinced right now about the Onkyo 606. Amazing since I was almost dead set on Yamaha. The difference between two and four HDMI inputs for almost nothing (since I'd probably get the $50 HDMI Monoprice switcher if I got the Yamaha) just might put the Onkyo over the top for me.

I was looking at the Onkyo 605 at one point, then I obtained $175 in Best Buy GC's. So, I turned to the Yahama 663, but now the the Onkyo 606 is coming out, I'm not sure what to get. I wish BEST BUY had some good receivers. The 4 HDMI inputs is a NICE feature. I need at LEAST three to contain all my components (360/PS3/Cable Box)

Best Buy = Source of DVDs

Really nothing else. Maybe video games.

I pre-ordered the Onkyo TX-SR606, in silver, from J&R.