HD DVD vs. Blu-Ray Disc vs. Everything Else: Round 5
#1
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From: Greenville, South Cackalack
HD DVD vs. Blu-Ray Disc vs. Everything Else: Round 5
(Shamelessly lifting from namja's inaugural post from round 4)
Thread continues from:
Round 1
Round 2
Round 3
Round 4
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MODERATOR NOTE (10/09/2006)
You are allowed to--and we encourage you to--make posts that constitute constructive criticism. Blatant bashing of a format or bashing of the studios/manufacturers is strictly forbidden.
If the main purpose of a post is to poke fun at another format, then they are nothing more than flame baits, and they will not be tolerated. Same with threadcrapping. At the moment, whenever someone posts something good about Format A, then we can count on certain supporters of Format B to enter that thread and make a snide comment about Format A. Sometimes it's just a smiley, like
or
; sometimes it's just a sarcastic one-liner. They are equivalent to threadcraps, and they will not be tolerated either.
Naturally, personal attacks are not allowed (all of the regular forum rules still apply, of course). Please remember to always discuss the topic, not the person. A personal attack is the fastest way to getting banned.
Some of you may feel that we're taking all the fun away. Actually, this is how we bring more fun into the forum. When we have more user-friendly rules, then more people will participate.
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<hr>
Thread continues from:
Round 1
Round 2
Round 3
Round 4
<hr>
MODERATOR NOTE (10/09/2006)
You are allowed to--and we encourage you to--make posts that constitute constructive criticism. Blatant bashing of a format or bashing of the studios/manufacturers is strictly forbidden.
If the main purpose of a post is to poke fun at another format, then they are nothing more than flame baits, and they will not be tolerated. Same with threadcrapping. At the moment, whenever someone posts something good about Format A, then we can count on certain supporters of Format B to enter that thread and make a snide comment about Format A. Sometimes it's just a smiley, like
or
; sometimes it's just a sarcastic one-liner. They are equivalent to threadcraps, and they will not be tolerated either.Naturally, personal attacks are not allowed (all of the regular forum rules still apply, of course). Please remember to always discuss the topic, not the person. A personal attack is the fastest way to getting banned.
Some of you may feel that we're taking all the fun away. Actually, this is how we bring more fun into the forum. When we have more user-friendly rules, then more people will participate.
namja
Moderator, DVD Talk Forums
<hr>
#2
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From: Blu-Ray: We Don't Need No Stinkin' Petition
I'm getting too sucked into the conversation. Need to take a break. 
Rocko, do a search. Toshiba was against using Blu-Ray because it was 25GB per layer and they said 15GB was enough and all consumers wanted. They delayed the launch many time, including the promised "by the end of 2005" date.
Everyone else, enjoy the recently released AVC and MPEG-2 releases which are getting high praises, and stop bringing up a few bad eggs released months ago. Get over it, its done. No one brings up the pre-firmware Toshiba crap, so stop bringing up those.
Elvis has left the building.

Rocko, do a search. Toshiba was against using Blu-Ray because it was 25GB per layer and they said 15GB was enough and all consumers wanted. They delayed the launch many time, including the promised "by the end of 2005" date.
Everyone else, enjoy the recently released AVC and MPEG-2 releases which are getting high praises, and stop bringing up a few bad eggs released months ago. Get over it, its done. No one brings up the pre-firmware Toshiba crap, so stop bringing up those.
Elvis has left the building.
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Originally Posted by joshd2012
Rocko, do a search. Toshiba was against using Blu-Ray because it was 25GB per layer and they said 15GB was enough and all consumers wanted. They delayed the launch many time, including the promised "by the end of 2005" date.

Telling people there are no production delays and then admitting that there are, is outright lying. As I said, please post a link where it shows that Toshiba outright lied. Dont just tell me to search. Thats BS (oh wait, your a sony guy...i forgot).
Yes, both hd-dvd and bluray have seen their fair share of delays. But, Sony has delayed alot more (their player, the PS3 and BD50).
Hell, their whole launch SHOULD have been delayed, but they had to keep up with hd-dvd which was more ready for prime time earlier than Bluray.
Last edited by RockStrongo; 10-26-06 at 01:35 PM.
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From: Mpls, MN
Originally Posted by digitalfreaknyc
We need clever names for the VS. threads.
Like....Episode 5. Josh Strikes Back.
or something.
Like....Episode 5. Josh Strikes Back.
or something.
Blu-Ray Catches Up. Almost.
#6
My Sammy arrives on Monday, so I'll finally be able to judge for myself on how good BD looks. I have T2, Gone in 60 Seconds, and Tears of the Sun ready to watch. I got it mainly for content from Fox, who I don't see switching any time soon.
So that means there are what...5 Blu-ray users on here? I still favor HD DVD because I bought into it first and have been extremely happy with the results, but at least I won't worry about who wins. I think the Sammy can be a good entry-level player. I just hope mine has an August build date.
And now that I do support both, I'm still going to be objective on what I see. If I see a BD title that looks like garbage, I'll post. Same for HD DVD. The only thing spinning will be the discs.
So that means there are what...5 Blu-ray users on here? I still favor HD DVD because I bought into it first and have been extremely happy with the results, but at least I won't worry about who wins. I think the Sammy can be a good entry-level player. I just hope mine has an August build date.
And now that I do support both, I'm still going to be objective on what I see. If I see a BD title that looks like garbage, I'll post. Same for HD DVD. The only thing spinning will be the discs.
Last edited by Mr. Cinema; 10-26-06 at 01:45 PM.
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From: NYC
Cinema, what happens if/when one goes under? or if your BD discs are replaced by newer encodes on HD DVD if that particular studio decides to switch over? We're hearing reports that the LG discs that have already come out (T2 included) will be re-encoded to VC1. Just curious.
i wish I had the money to spend that some of you have.
i wish I had the money to spend that some of you have.
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From: Fort Fun, Colorado
Originally Posted by digitalfreaknyc
We need clever names for the VS. threads.
Like....Episode 5. Josh Strikes Back.
or something.
Like....Episode 5. Josh Strikes Back.
or something.

After reading the last few pages, I was having an alt.dvd.video Senator Palpatine flashback...
#9
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Originally Posted by joshd2012
Rocko, do a search. Toshiba was against using Blu-Ray because it was 25GB per layer and they said 15GB was enough and all consumers wanted. They delayed the launch many time, including the promised "by the end of 2005" date.
Originally Posted by joshd2012
You can easily fit a feature length movie on a standard two layer DVD using MPEG-4 or VC-1.
...
You missed my point. Movies in 1080p are going to fit on DVDs just as easily as they will on HD-DVD or Blu-Ray.
...
You missed my point. Movies in 1080p are going to fit on DVDs just as easily as they will on HD-DVD or Blu-Ray.
Originally Posted by joshd2012
Blu-Ray's advantage with storage is worthless for movies.
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HD DVD Twin discs
I was reading about the HD DVD Twin disc formats (announced on 9/11/06) that have made there way into stores already (The Break Up being a recent example). As we know they have 30GB for HD DVD and a third layer for SD DVD of 4.7GB. Here's one article about it.
What I thought was strange, though, and I hadn't noticed before was this bit (I found it in multiple press releases, too):
Did the DVD Forum approve this already (seems unlikely since it was only announced 9/11/06)??
If not, what of the argument that TL 45GB discs can't be released UNTIL the DVD Forum approves it? Seems like they just did with the Twin disc...
EDIT: Actually, it may have already been in the spec since July 20, 2005 as mentioned in this HD DVD-ROM Format Spec Book mention here. If that's the case, then the article is wrong, I suppose.
What I thought was strange, though, and I hadn't noticed before was this bit (I found it in multiple press releases, too):
It will be a tricky proposition to make, and the final technical details have yet to be presented to the DVD Forum, which steers development for both formats.
If not, what of the argument that TL 45GB discs can't be released UNTIL the DVD Forum approves it? Seems like they just did with the Twin disc...
EDIT: Actually, it may have already been in the spec since July 20, 2005 as mentioned in this HD DVD-ROM Format Spec Book mention here. If that's the case, then the article is wrong, I suppose.
Last edited by awmurray; 10-26-06 at 02:38 PM.
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From: Blu-Ray: We Don't Need No Stinkin' Petition
What exactly are you trying to prove?
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Originally Posted by joshd2012
What exactly are you trying to prove?
Really, this is like shooting fish in a barrel.
Last edited by awmurray; 10-26-06 at 02:42 PM.
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Originally Posted by joshd2012
If you don't put any extras and use advanced codecs properly, then it can happen easily.
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From: Blu-Ray: We Don't Need No Stinkin' Petition
Originally Posted by awmurray
I guess by your own logic that you're a liar. Since you implied that Toshiba lied about 15GB being "enough".
Really, this is like shooting fish in a barrel.
Really, this is like shooting fish in a barrel.

Sony's Blu-ray disks have a more sophisticated format and store 25 gigabytes of data, compared with HD DVD's 15, but are more expensive to produce.
Taro Takamine, a Sony spokesman, said that while Sony remains open to discussion with the Toshiba bloc, the firm's goal is to agree on a single format, not a jointly developed one.
"We have no intention on settling on a compromised format that only plays back 20 gigabytes, for example," Takamine said.
Toshiba spokesman Junko Furuta also acknowledged that a unified format did not look likely for the time being. Blu-ray disks would be harder to adopt for use in laptop computers, as well as in car navigation systems that are popular in Japan, Furuta said.
"We have doubts as to whether the Blu-ray format is a viable technology in terms of production cost," she said. "We're also not convinced that consumers would need to store so much data on disks, especially now that internal hard drives are more popular."
Taro Takamine, a Sony spokesman, said that while Sony remains open to discussion with the Toshiba bloc, the firm's goal is to agree on a single format, not a jointly developed one.
"We have no intention on settling on a compromised format that only plays back 20 gigabytes, for example," Takamine said.
Toshiba spokesman Junko Furuta also acknowledged that a unified format did not look likely for the time being. Blu-ray disks would be harder to adopt for use in laptop computers, as well as in car navigation systems that are popular in Japan, Furuta said.
"We have doubts as to whether the Blu-ray format is a viable technology in terms of production cost," she said. "We're also not convinced that consumers would need to store so much data on disks, especially now that internal hard drives are more popular."
Toshiba said consumers wouldn't need that much disc storage on a disc, yet launch with more storage space than they were criticizing Sony for using it.
How exactly does that make me a liar?
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From: Blu-Ray: We Don't Need No Stinkin' Petition
Originally Posted by awmurray
Can I save this as tacit admission that VC-1 compresses better than MPEG-2?
Jeez, are you just looking for things to come after me, with no regard to what you are saying?
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Independent disc manufacturers association endorses HD DVD:
Good to see more endorsement for HD DVD and outside confirmation of what we've heard all along about manufacturability issues.
As a group of 37 North American media manufacturing companies, it cited cost and ease of transition from DVD as reasons for the choice. HD DVD has touted its low cost to manufacturers as a main benefit, so this aligns with a major selling point of the format.
#19
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Battery recall decimates Sony profit
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061026/...rns_japan_sony
By YURI KAGEYAMA, AP Business Writer
Thu Oct 26, 12:51 PM ET
TOKYO - A global battery recall and red ink in its video-game business decimated Sony's profits in the most recent quarter, the Japanese electronics and entertainment company said Thursday.
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Sony Corp (NYSE:SNE - news).'s group net profit for the July-September quarter fell 94 percent to 1.7 billion yen ($14 million), from 28.5 billion yen the same period the previous year, the Tokyo-based manufacturer said.
An extra cost of 51 billion yen ($429 million) related to a global recall of 9.6 million Sony laptop batteries was a major factor behind the sharp drop in profit for the fiscal second quarter.
Almost every major laptop maker in the world, including Dell Inc., Apple Computer Inc. and Lenovo, has announced recalls of Sony lithium-ion batteries that could overheat and burst into flames.
The recall — which has tarnished Sony's brand image as a longtime maker of icon products such as the Walkman portable player and PlayStation video game machine — offset the lift Sony's books got from an 8 percent rise in July-September sales to 1.85 trillion yen ($15.6 billion) from 1.7 trillion yen a year earlier.
Sony reported a 43.5 billion yen ($366 million) operating loss in its gaming division because of charges related to the preparation for the next-generation PlayStation 3 console, set to go on sale in the U.S. and Japan next month.
Sony said last month the machine's launch in Europe will be delayed until March next year because of mass production problems in a video technology called Blu-ray disk that the machine supports.
The company has also reduced the price in Japan for the much hyped PS3 by about 20 percent in an effort to win buyers — a move that's likely to reduce sales revenue because initial shipments are expected to be limited and sell out.
Sony kept unchanged Thursday its plan to ship 6 million PS3 machines in the fiscal year through March 2007. Research and development costs for the PS3 eroded profitability in the game unit, the company said in a statement.
Sony trimmed its fiscal 2006 shipment target for its lagging PlayStation Portable handheld machines to 9 million from the initial 12 million machines. Sony shipped 14 million PSP machines in fiscal 2005.
In contrast, Japanese rival Nintendo Co. is scoring success with its DS handheld machine. The maker of Pokemon and Super Mario games said Thursday that its group net profit for the first fiscal half soared nearly 50 percent.
In the core electronics segment, Sony's operating profit for the three months ended Sept. 30, shrank 71 percent to 8 billion yen ($67 million) from 28 billion yen a year earlier.
Sony has been trying to turn around its electronics business after getting beaten by rivals on key products such as Apple's iPod and liquid crystal display TVs from Sharp Corp. and Samsung Electronics Co.
The revival effort is being led by American Chief Executive Howard Stringer, the first foreigner to head Sony, but questions are already publicly being raised here about the management team of Stringer and Ryoji Chubachi, an electronics expert, following the battery troubles and production delays.
The charge for the battery recall hurt earnings in electronics, despite strong sales of Bravia flat-panel TVs and Cyber-shot digital cameras, Sony said. The absence of last year's gain from a pension fund reimbursement in Japan also contributed to the operating profit decline in that sector, it said.
Such stumbles forced Sony to revise last week its forecast for the fiscal year through March 2007, to 80 billion yen ($673 million), down 38 percent from its initial projection and down 35 percent from fiscal 2005.
It's expecting 8.23 trillion yen ($69 billion) in fiscal 2006 sales, up 10 percent from the previous year.
Chief Financial Officer Nobuyuki Oneda said Sony's liquid crystal display television business, which has been working to reduce losses, is expected to post a profit in the October-December quarter.
Sony's movie business also fared poorly, seeing its operating loss grow to 15.3 billion yen ($129 million) partly on flops such as "Zoom" and "All the King's Men," it said. Faring better were "Talladega Nights: The Ballad of Ricky Bobby," "Monster House" and "Click."
Sony has a music business, but it combined its recorded music business outside of Japan with Bertelsmann AG and the results are not part of Sony's group earnings, except when accounting for Sony's equity.
Best-selling albums included Justin Timberlake's "Future Sex/Love Sounds," Beyonce's "B'Day" and Christina Aguilera's "Back to Basics."
Sony's mobile phone operations are in a joint venture Sony Ericsson, where net income nearly tripled in the quarter, but the results are not part of the consolidated Sony statement.
For the first six months of the fiscal year, Sony posted a 34 billion yen ($286 million) profit, up 60 percent from the same period a year earlier, on 3.6 trillion yen ($30 billion) sales, up nearly 10 percent from the first half of fiscal 2005.
Sony shares, which have lost about 40 percent of their value over the last five years, stood unchanged in Tokyo trading at 4,820 yen ($40). The results were announced after the market closed.
Thu Oct 26, 12:51 PM ET
TOKYO - A global battery recall and red ink in its video-game business decimated Sony's profits in the most recent quarter, the Japanese electronics and entertainment company said Thursday.
ADVERTISEMENT
Sony Corp (NYSE:SNE - news).'s group net profit for the July-September quarter fell 94 percent to 1.7 billion yen ($14 million), from 28.5 billion yen the same period the previous year, the Tokyo-based manufacturer said.
An extra cost of 51 billion yen ($429 million) related to a global recall of 9.6 million Sony laptop batteries was a major factor behind the sharp drop in profit for the fiscal second quarter.
Almost every major laptop maker in the world, including Dell Inc., Apple Computer Inc. and Lenovo, has announced recalls of Sony lithium-ion batteries that could overheat and burst into flames.
The recall — which has tarnished Sony's brand image as a longtime maker of icon products such as the Walkman portable player and PlayStation video game machine — offset the lift Sony's books got from an 8 percent rise in July-September sales to 1.85 trillion yen ($15.6 billion) from 1.7 trillion yen a year earlier.
Sony reported a 43.5 billion yen ($366 million) operating loss in its gaming division because of charges related to the preparation for the next-generation PlayStation 3 console, set to go on sale in the U.S. and Japan next month.
Sony said last month the machine's launch in Europe will be delayed until March next year because of mass production problems in a video technology called Blu-ray disk that the machine supports.
The company has also reduced the price in Japan for the much hyped PS3 by about 20 percent in an effort to win buyers — a move that's likely to reduce sales revenue because initial shipments are expected to be limited and sell out.
Sony kept unchanged Thursday its plan to ship 6 million PS3 machines in the fiscal year through March 2007. Research and development costs for the PS3 eroded profitability in the game unit, the company said in a statement.
Sony trimmed its fiscal 2006 shipment target for its lagging PlayStation Portable handheld machines to 9 million from the initial 12 million machines. Sony shipped 14 million PSP machines in fiscal 2005.
In contrast, Japanese rival Nintendo Co. is scoring success with its DS handheld machine. The maker of Pokemon and Super Mario games said Thursday that its group net profit for the first fiscal half soared nearly 50 percent.
In the core electronics segment, Sony's operating profit for the three months ended Sept. 30, shrank 71 percent to 8 billion yen ($67 million) from 28 billion yen a year earlier.
Sony has been trying to turn around its electronics business after getting beaten by rivals on key products such as Apple's iPod and liquid crystal display TVs from Sharp Corp. and Samsung Electronics Co.
The revival effort is being led by American Chief Executive Howard Stringer, the first foreigner to head Sony, but questions are already publicly being raised here about the management team of Stringer and Ryoji Chubachi, an electronics expert, following the battery troubles and production delays.
The charge for the battery recall hurt earnings in electronics, despite strong sales of Bravia flat-panel TVs and Cyber-shot digital cameras, Sony said. The absence of last year's gain from a pension fund reimbursement in Japan also contributed to the operating profit decline in that sector, it said.
Such stumbles forced Sony to revise last week its forecast for the fiscal year through March 2007, to 80 billion yen ($673 million), down 38 percent from its initial projection and down 35 percent from fiscal 2005.
It's expecting 8.23 trillion yen ($69 billion) in fiscal 2006 sales, up 10 percent from the previous year.
Chief Financial Officer Nobuyuki Oneda said Sony's liquid crystal display television business, which has been working to reduce losses, is expected to post a profit in the October-December quarter.
Sony's movie business also fared poorly, seeing its operating loss grow to 15.3 billion yen ($129 million) partly on flops such as "Zoom" and "All the King's Men," it said. Faring better were "Talladega Nights: The Ballad of Ricky Bobby," "Monster House" and "Click."
Sony has a music business, but it combined its recorded music business outside of Japan with Bertelsmann AG and the results are not part of Sony's group earnings, except when accounting for Sony's equity.
Best-selling albums included Justin Timberlake's "Future Sex/Love Sounds," Beyonce's "B'Day" and Christina Aguilera's "Back to Basics."
Sony's mobile phone operations are in a joint venture Sony Ericsson, where net income nearly tripled in the quarter, but the results are not part of the consolidated Sony statement.
For the first six months of the fiscal year, Sony posted a 34 billion yen ($286 million) profit, up 60 percent from the same period a year earlier, on 3.6 trillion yen ($30 billion) sales, up nearly 10 percent from the first half of fiscal 2005.
Sony shares, which have lost about 40 percent of their value over the last five years, stood unchanged in Tokyo trading at 4,820 yen ($40). The results were announced after the market closed.
#20
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From: In the Universe.
We all know VC1 is better at this point I think that's pretty much proven so far. So let's put this argument to rest.
Blu-Ray 1 - HD-DVD 57
That's when hell of a blowout.
-namja
That's when hell of a blowout.
-namja
Last edited by namja; 10-26-06 at 05:47 PM.
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From: Blu-Ray: We Don't Need No Stinkin' Petition
Originally Posted by ChrisHicks
that 1 point is for all their crazy supporters.
Most of you will notice, that my posting in generally defending Blu-ray, rather than attacking HD DVD. In fact, when I do attack HD DVD, it is because someone has attacked BD and have I point out that HD DVD is either just as guilty of fault. No, it is on rare occasion (like today when I was trying to respond to 5 people all challenging me at once) that I actually resort to attacking HD DVD.
So why exactly, do people on this board find it necessary to attack a format they do not support, and possibly don't plan on supporting? Not a day goes by that someone doesn't post an article about the demise of Sony (btw, Sony Blu-ray), or how awful BD discs look. What exactly are you trying to gain by attacking? You don't own that disc, and probably never will, so why even mention it?
The obvious answer, is fear. You fear that Blu-ray will succeed and that HD DVD will fail. You attack, because you know that if you just let the companies fight it out in the market, your format may lose. You sign petitions begging movie studios to change their mind about releasing on HD DVD. You develop websites with misinformation (that don't even know what HD DVD stands for) and put them in your signature blocks. And even a few of you go to Best Buy and pass out pamphlets about how great HD DVD is (not sure if anyone on this board was part of that embarassment).
So I guess, I am considered a crazy BD supporter, eh? Isn't that the kettle calling the pot black. Because I defend a format that I am a purchaser of? Because I refuse to accept the propaganda that Microsoft and Toshiba push as fact? Blu-ray is the technically superior format - no one can argue that. And while it may have produced some duds in the beginning (not unlike players Toshiba was releasing) its firing on all cylinders now. If you choose to not support Blu-ray for whatever reason, that's fine, but clogging the boards with "Sony recalls more batteries!" and "Lionsgate is going to go neutral any day!" really does nothing for your case, but show its despiration.
Last edited by joshd2012; 10-26-06 at 03:59 PM.
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Originally Posted by joshd2012
This comment, I think, is one of the funniest I've seen in a while.
Most of you will notice, that my posting in generally defending Blu-ray, rather than attacking HD DVD. In fact, when I do attack HD DVD, it is because someone has attacked BD and have I point out that HD DVD is either just as guilty of fault.
Most of you will notice, that my posting in generally defending Blu-ray, rather than attacking HD DVD. In fact, when I do attack HD DVD, it is because someone has attacked BD and have I point out that HD DVD is either just as guilty of fault.
You can't possibly be serious. Every single rebuttal you make is a slam on HD DVD. Sheesh.
I also wonder if the mods have take note of your passive agressive trolling in your location title.



