GatorDeb

I'm finally rewatching FOTR T (theatrical version). My goal is to go FOTR T -> FOTR EE -> TTT T -> TTT EE -> ROTK Th (theater ).

When I got TTT T I started to watch it but 5 mins in I discovered I remembered almost nothing from FOTR Th (which I saw when it came out in the Fall of 2001). And I just haven't gotten around to rewatch them up to now.

So it's one question so far but more to come :

When Bilbo disappears at the party, it seems Frodo waits an awfully long time to go look for him at home, a good 20 minutes or so. Wouldn't this be one of the first places he would go looking for him? It's almost as if Bilbo was a second thought.

greg9x

Well it's not explained in the movie, but I belive the hobbits thought it was a trick and Bilbo would reappear later, plus they were partying no sense letting disappearing hobbits ruin your buzz. The fact that he was gone gone probably didn't settle in for a few days.

Greg

GatorDeb

Three more questions

When Aragorn is carrying Frodo right after he gets stabbed by the Mozgul (?), someone yells out "Gandalf." Who was it? Was it just Frodo thinking it?

Also when they are showing Rivendell for the first time, they show someone in horseback. Who was that?

The third question was about Aragorn but I forgot what it was... I'll post it when I remember it

BTW I gather the other human who says in the circle that Gondor needs no king is Boromir... but I'm at the part now where they're going through the snowy passage and I don't think that name has been uttered yet.

Another thing... what's the significance of the necklace Arwen gives Aragorn?

jekbrown

not 100% sure, but I thought the necklace from Arwen was basically a symbol oh her "giving up her life's grace" to be with him.

j

Jackskeleton

"Also when they are showing Rivendell for the first time, they show someone in horseback. Who was that?"


Elf extra #45

caligulathegod

That was one of the odd things in the TE of FOTR: It took so long before they bothered to even tell you Boromir's name.

GatorDeb

I have a TTT question:

At the beginning, I gather that Saruman went to the 'cave' people and incited them to attack the Horse-men because the Horse-men would get in his way of domination. Then the nephew of the king of Rohan gets banishes and kills the Orcs and goes on on his merry way (I'm only 40 minutes into it). Is that all we're supposed to know so far? I got confused since a new storyline was just thrown in there. Were we supposed to know who the cave people and Horse-men were before-hand?

TCG

^^^
Only if you read the books. Rohan is known for its breeding of horses. Everyone is name Eo- because it means horse. They live on plains so they need fast, powerful horses to travel. they depend on horses to live, just look at all their clothing and architecture. it's similar to how Japan makes the best electronics, Rohan makes the best horses.

And the wildmen are just that in the book. they're called the wildmen. hobos living in caves that fight with clubs and spears, and they blame Rohan for their problems, and Saruman capitalizes on it.

i hope this helps.

GatorDeb

So it's like a family member said, I was trying to look too much into it Thanks!

GatorDeb

Just finished TTT TE. Going to catch ROTK TE and then start with the EEs (change of plan since mom got into watching them and she doesn't want to watch the EEs... can't blame her at 3 hours per TE.

Questions:

What's the relationship between Elrond and Galadriel? Who's the one that tells Haldier to fight, Elrond or Galadriel? Are the Galadriel elves and Elrond elves just two separate cities just like Gondor and Rohan are just two human cities?

And this is more of a comment - that whole Gandalf the Grey now being Gandalf the White was a bit too hokey (lame) for me.

GatorDeb

One more question... can Arwen really give up her immortality or is it just a gesture for Aragorn?

caligulathegod

Galadriel is Elrond's mother-in-law. She and Celeborn had Celebrían who is the mother of Arwen. Who knows who told Haldir to fight? It was invented awkwardly for the films and isn't quite clear. In the books, Elrond sent his sons to accompany Aragorn and they went with him on the Paths of the Dead and the battles after Helm's Deep. That Haldir and Company were "sent by Elrond" might have been just a shorthand acknowledgement for that, since they didn't include the characters in the film, just as Elves at Helm's Deep was a nod at the fact that the Elves fought important battles offscreen in the book, too, that we don't learn about until we read the appendices.

Yes, two different Elven cities.

Not sure why you found the color thing hokey. Saruman was the head of the order and was "The White". Gandalf was "The Grey", Radagast "the Brown" and the two Blue Wizards that don't come into the tale. When Gandalf was sent back, he became the new head and was promoted to White. Saruman had actually become "of Many Colors" It's all just a symbolic ranking. Unfortunately, some people have no imagination and turn any symbolism in color into a race thing, so PJ pretty much ignored it, which just a tip of the hat to fans by having characters referred to by those names.

caligulathegod

Arwen's father, Elrond, was half-elven and the Half-elvens have a choice of which kindred to belong. No other elves have this choice (which one exception).

Groucho

A comment on a question in the original post:

In the book, Frodo is in a cahoots with Bilbo and helps him disappear and escape from Hobbiton.

GatorDeb

caligula - my comment about him becoming the White had nothing to do with race and a big ooooohhhhh now I get it. I just found this whole energy from the sky resuscitated him hokey but I guess it could be interpreted that he gave his life for Middle Earth so he ascends to the top of the ranking. That wasn't explained very well if at all in the movies.

I actually read somewhere that Elrond had a choice of which race to belong and he chose to be an elf, but I thought he made that choice for ALL his descendants, not that each of his descendants would also have this choice. Interesting.

Which other elf has this choice?

And wow, his mother in law. Women elves keep better than male elves, it seems He seems like her great-grandfather.

Galadriel was just creepy. Very well played.

GatorDeb

Are you serious?

Cali - one more thing on the Arwen immortality thing - can she actually die or will the immortality follow her forever? Elrond made it sound as if she would outlast every man on Earth and be miserable as a result.

My mom swears that Elrond sent the elves to fight. I agree that it's not very well told in the TE. I want to rewatch TT:TE one more time and then tackle the EEs. We'll be going to see ROTK either Wednesday or Thursday (first time I'll go to the movies since The Hulk (not counting IMAX Matrix Reloaded as I don't count going to IMAX as going to the movies)).

Philip Reuben

Elrond and Galadriel are both thousands of years old. I guess the idea is that some elves stop ageing earlier than others?

Does Hugo Weaving really look that old anyway?

GatorDeb

Hugo Weaving doesn't look that old. Elrond looks that old. It may just be the wrinkles but I would have never guessed that Galadriel was a generation older as opposed to one or two below. She looks about the same age as Arwen.

Was this relationship established in the movie?

Philip Reuben

No. I don't believe it was established in the book itself either - possibly in the appendices, if not then only in The Silmarillion.

Groucho

Yes. Frodo is much older in the books as well.

Giantrobo

I find this comment funny...arent you in Martial Arts and isn't it ranked by Color belts GatorDeb?

caligulathegod

Yeah, i didn't think you were talking about race, but other people do when they look at it superficially. I was just saying that's probably why PJ de-emphasized it.

As to the apparent age thing, Elves don't really age (or do so very, very slowly), but the cares of the world do show up as wisdom lines or character lines, which Tolkien says only make them more beautiful. Elrond had been through many battles and saw many changes to Middle-earth. Galadriel had seen her share of sorrows, too. Galadriel was born in Valinor during the Age of the Trees 1000s of years before the First Age when the sun rose. She and Cirdan the shipwright are the oldest of the Elves still extant in Middle-earth. She's only maybe 3 generations from the Elves that first awoke in ME. She came across the grinding ice of the Helcaraxe with her people after Feanor betrayed them and burnt the ships intended to bring them back from Valinor to Middle-earth. She then spent years with Melian the Maia learning great wisdom and power which she used, along with Nenya the Ring of Adamant, to shield her land from evil. She is the most powerful Elf left in ME at the time of our story.

Tolkien said that the Half-elven could delay their choice, but would have to make it eventually. Interestingly, only the Elven branch of the Half-elvens seem to be able to choose. The descendents of Elrond's brother Elros were forever humans, but of greater lifespan than normal men and were royalty among men. Aragorn descends from Elros.

Arwen does indeed die. It could be argued that she had remained immortal and had just died of grief, but Tolkien confirms in his other writings that Arwen did indeed die. It's also been suggested that she gave her "ticket" on the boat to Frodo, but that's not the case. She just used that as an argument to convince Gandalf to ask the Valar (gods/angels) to let Frodo heal in the Undying Lands.


And the exception. Thingol was an original Elf. He awoke at the waters of Cuivienen. At that time ME was ruled by Melkor, the Evil Vala. The other Valar had built the earth but were constantly thwarted by Melkor so they finally gave up and created their own continent of Aman. After many 1000s of years, the Elves finally awoke in Middle-earth. The Valar invited them to live with them in Aman which was an Earthly paradise. Some did, some didn't, but the invitation was open forever (that's where the Elves are going on the boats). Thingol was among the first Elves to visit Aman and report back to his people. These first Elves became Kings. Anyway, once while in the woods, he came across Melian the Maia (a spirit of lesser degree than the valar-Gandalf was one) and was instantly in love. She had taken the form of an elf and fell in love with him, too. They married and established a kingdom in Doriath in which she used her maia power and put a girdle of enchantment around the land to keep it hidden. They had a daughter who was the most beautiful creature ever put on earth named Luthien. One day, Beren, the man, was walking in the woods and came across Luthien and both were smitten. Thingol refused to give his daughter's hand to a man so he gave Beren an impossible quest. If he could bring back one of the Silmaril jewels from the crown of Melkor (that he had stolen from Feanor the Elf-which contained the only remaining light from the two trees of Valinor) then he would give his daughter's hand to him. After a while, Beren and Luthien both went to Melkor's (now called Morgoth) deep tunnelled fortress. She sang a song that put Morgoth to sleep and Beren pryed the Jewel from the crown. He got greedy and went for the second of three and his sword broke, cutting Morgoth's face and awakening him. They fled but were caught by Carcharoth the fell Wolf of Morgoth. He bit the hand of Beren off and swallowed the jewel, which drove him mad with pain. Beren and Luthien escaped and made it back to Doriath, followed by Carcharoth. Carcharoth was slain by Huan the hound of Valinor and when his belly was cut open, among the charred insides was the intact hand of Beren still grasping the Silmaril. Beren died, however from poison to his wounds from the wolf's saliva. Luthien died of grief and went (where all Elves go when they are slain or die of grief) to the Halls of Mandos. While there, she sang a song of such unsurpassing beauty and sadness that Mandos himself was moved to take pity. He went to Manwe the head of the Valar and the only one with a direct line to GOD (Eru). Manwe was not allowed to withhold death from Beren, for that is God's gift to Men, but he gave Luthien a choice. She could remain in the Halls of Mandos and be there forever or he could allow her to become mortal and delay Beren's death so they could live one more lifetime together. This she chose and she and Beren were allowed to come back to life and live on an island in a river, but to have no further contact with others. When they finally died, she alone among the elves, truly died, that is, she left the circles of the world.

Beren and Luthien had (male) Dior, who in turn had (female)Elwing, who married Earendil the son of the only other Elf-Human marriage Tuor and Idril. They had Elrond and Elros. Elrond had Arwen and Elros (the only half-elven to choose humanity) had the line that begat Aragorn. So Tolkien avoided having tons of Half-elvens around by combining their lines after a couple generations.

Tolkien considered the tale of Beren and Luthien to be his most important. On his gravestone, the only reference to Middle-earth was the simple word "Beren" on his stone and "Luthien" on his wife's.