I find Phish and bands similar to that (The Slip, some Medeski, Martin, and Wood) to be over-indulgent, boring, and just too SILLY to be taken seriously. I've been to a couple Phish shows with friends, and though they were fun, that mostly had to do with the many available drugs there and seeing how outlandish some of these Phish-heads dress up. But as for the music itself, sure they are talented musicians but their music is gimmicky and almost vomit-inducing. The last time I saw them was a few years ago and during the encore they played Will Smith's 'Gettin' Jiggy With It'. Ho ho!! How hilarious!!!! How ironic!!! Hand me the barf bag. Trey and all the dirty, scuzzy, smelly hippie lemmings he calls fans can rot. [end rant/]

I think it sucks when people dismiss an entire category of music, especially when the category is ill-defined to begin with.

You know what I love about Phish? The band and their fans unabashedly, unashamedly love music. Period. Drugs or no drugs, at a Phish show, you'll see thousands of people letting themselves get swept away by the sheer power and beauty of music. Yeah, you've got a bunch of spoiled white kids with little rhythm dancing like they could care less if anybody's watching, but that's a beautiful thing. When I go see many of my other favorite bands (many of which, judging from your posts in this forum, you love) I see a bunch of self-conscious spoiled white kids in black tee shirts and black horn rimmed glasses afraid to dance to the music, afraid to even clap at the end of a friggin' song, for the fear that they may not look cool or hip enough. I'll take a Phish show any day.

Another thing, what the hell is wrong with a little humor in music? Granted, sometimes the joke doesn't work. "Gettin' Jiggy with It" didn't work as a joke for me either. However, when a band gets up on stage with no set list and decides to take risks, it's simply not gonna work 100% of the time. Being a fan of improvisational music, I've learned to accept that seeing 10 amazing shows may mean that you're going to see one that's not so great. Give me a lackluster Phish show any day over a band who plays the same set every night, says the same thing to the crowd every night and plays the songs exactly how they appear on record.

You state you hate all jambands. However, you stated in another thread that you love Sonic Youth, who are, in their own way, every bit as much a jamband as Phish. Jamming, to me, means improvisation on stage. Each time I've seen Sonic Youth, they've done every bit as much improvisation as Phish does during a normal show. Not all jambands sound like Phish. In fact, there's a very substantial portion of them that sound nothing like Phish.

You can wish me to rot in hell (well, you already have - which, by the way, grow the hell up) and call music I love "vomit inducing", but in the end, I don't care. Because on December 31st, I'm going to be (hopefully) having the time of my life watching my favorite band get back together and dancing my ass off. You can waste your time trying to look cool.

Well if you don't like it then I guess I shouldn't either, thanks for setting me straight!

Just because you don't like a band doesnt mean you should condem every fan to eternal damnation.

Also if you don't like jam bands then why would you subject yourself to listening to them enough to make you hate them and then rant about them.

You also limit yourself to great musical experiences. I saw the Allman brothers do a 45 minute rendition of Elizabeth Reed that blew my mind. Medeski, Martin, and Wood is one of the tightest bands I have ever seen. They do more interesting stuff in one song live than most do their entire careers in the studio.

Does it go overboard sometimes...yes. When the music doesn't seem to have a point or a direction it just becomes musical masturbation and becomes tiresome.

This sounds like more of a rant on the people you didn't like at the show and concentrated on that aspect more than the music...of course I could be wrong.

Hmm...

I agree with all of what's been said previously, but I don't really know how I should respond to this.

I'm not a Phish phan...er...fan . But I wouldn't slam anyone that was.

I've never understood the attraction to the Grateful Dead either. [Old joke -- I'll be grateful when they're dead. ha ha]

But, I don't know if you lump Dave Matthews Band in with this category that you've proclaimed. If so, then I disagree with you totally. I guess you must be used to the "top 40" format -- 3 minutes, no longer. Most of the top 40 "bands" can barely sustain 3 minutes, much less 10 or 20. It seems that only real musicians attempt turning a song into a "jam". Some artists get off on that spontaneous feeling it has I guess. And it's not just Rock/Folky bands that do it too. Parliament/Funkadelic used to do it. Prince does it. Two months ago I saw Me'Shell N'degeocello do a twelve minute live version of a four minute album cut and she KILLED it. It was f'n fantastic.

I guess if all the elements are there, it works. If not...you end up a bitter person like "Bass God".

As far as the fans at some shows...it does suck that some aren't there for the music & i'm sure some do ruin it for others...Hell at 95% of the Prince shows i've seen, the chicks come dressed wearing hardly anything hoping Prince will pick 'em up [I guess...]. NOT that that's a BAD thing.

But you shouldn't let other fans bother you OR hold it against the band.

Well, we've discussed this topic before, but I gotta chime in since I really have a strong dislike for "jam bands". YES, I would put DMB in there even though they have plenty of short hits. But they can noodle on in concert which drives me nuts sometimes.
I saw the Dead in '92 and the whole experience drove me insane.
Yes, they have talent, but I was bored out of my mind. The whole peace and love vibe seemed contrived and about 25 years passe. And those Dead bumper stickers that say something like "sometimes you have to just go your own way" or something along those lines (I'm sure it's a lyric that I'm not even close to remembering correctly). But it's just something I found funny that so many people FOLLOWED while thinking they were dropping out on the fringe of society. Granted, most people were just fans who simply liked their music. I also found it interesting how many frat boys were into these guys (I was in a frat so I can rag on 'em if I want).

Sonic Youth does jam sometimes, but it's harsher and to me it doesn't come across as endless mellow vibes with everyone doing the same silly dance. I can throw in Stevie Ray Vaughn as someone I could watch just go to town on guitar, but there was a lot more oomph in his playing. This is taste.... always gotta say that... but my favorite tunes are scaled back to the basics mostly. It's just what I enjoy. But that whole Dead vibe turned me off so badly that it does affect my view of bands that are in the same orbit.

And does it matter? No, I don't lose sleep over this subject, but there are times MTV or the radio might play music like this when I'd rather hear something else. Simple as that.

I am glad no one dissed on my Rusted Root.

Would it be a threadcrap to completely and utterly disagree with the topic of this thread?

Ooh...the hippies are gonna get you, Bass God.

A question for the few of you here who have professed your distaste for jambands and their fans (particularly Bass God, I suppose)...

What is the exact source of your hatred towards this scene? I can understand active annoyance towards teen pop music, commercial hip hop and even techno/dance music. People are unwillingly exposed to these styles of music all the time - on the radio, on MTV, in commercials, in stores, etc. Jam music, however, flies completely under the radar of mainstream culture for the most part. I mean, the mainstream media pays practically no attention to the music at all. When's the last time you've heard Phish on the radio or heard the String Cheese Incident in a TV commercial? In other words, if you don't like the music, it's so damn easy to ignore that I just can't imagine how you could hate it (and us) enough to draft the post that you did. You don't like Phish? Fine. Don't go to their concerts, don't open the threads on this site that are obviously going to discuss them heavily and don't buy their records. Chances are, you'll never be exposed to their music again.

While I'm not exactly a fan of "jam bands" (which is a silly term to begin with), I've no problem with others enjoying them. But maybe I'd appreciate a band like Phish more if I'd seen them live, which is clearly their preferred element.

I dunno, maybe it's the constant "noodling" of the guitars which bores me, but then again I could listen to SRV or Hendrix (not to mention Coltrane and Coleman) all day and not be bored. And as someone already said, Sonic Youth has plenty of "jams", just a bit more harsh-sounding than Phish or the Dead. And what is VU's "Sister Ray" but a 17-minute "riff", and I absolutely love that song (as well as the 30-45 minute versions).

To sum up, I have no idea what I'm trying to say...

For what it's worth, "Sister Ray" is one of my absolute favorite songs.

Actually, Phish's music has just as much in common with the music of VU or Frank Zappa as it does to the Grateful Dead. I'm personally not a Dead fan at all...their music is way too light and airy for me. Phish has that light feel at times, but their jams are often quite dark and dissonant.

I think Bass God's more a fan of The Trolling Stones.

I would say that a lot of those types of bands are rather self-indulgent - they serve their egos more than their actual songs. But some people seem to really like the incessant noodleing.

Or the problem could be that some people don't know how to listen.

What one person may instantly label 'incessant noodling' may be more exciting to the individual ear than several 2-minute punk raveups in a row, or a bunch of overly clever lyrics with a cheap, catchy hook.

Of course, that doesn't excuse actual incessant noodling. But you have to be able to discriminate.

Unfortunately catchy hooks must not be cheap enough because I'd kill to hear more power pop like Teenage Fanclub all over the place.

Wow Andalusia always has a knack for putting things in a way I can understand. ;D

You've got a great point brother...I just posted on the "Most Overrated Artist" thread, and DMB quite frankly, is the most overrated EVER. Yes they're a "jam-band" (albiet ill-defined as Andalusia pointed out) in my book.
I again almost exclusively agree with Andalusia, I could put on Coltrane records all day and not get tired of 'em.
I actually had a revelation akin to this discussion at the Sonic Youth show (two weeks ago, yesterday). My epiphany involved my asking myself why I become nautious when someone raves about "Dave" and some of the others, and yet I was in orgasmic elation when Thurston wailed and screamed for 15 minutes as an encore. The answer to me is....filth. I like it dirty baby! Sonic Youth, Coltrane, and to most points SRV are dirty, filthy, and off.
It's the same reason I put out a hit on that little pretty whitebread, Kenny Wayne Chesney, or whatever the ***** his name is, and yet Roadhouse Chicago Blues get me going everytime!
John Lee Hooker vs. that new-wave blues crap
Coltrane vs. Fourplay
Otis Redding vs. that new R&b crap
Sonic Youth vs. "jam bands"
Hank Williams vs. "Nashville Glam" or new country
Bill Monroe vs. "O Brother induced Bluegrass nouvea"

It's more honest, truthful, real....in effect...has soul!!!

Anyone who thinks Dave, etc. have soul....well it's not worth explaining.

subbacultcha, I understand you.

subbacultcha, thats a bunch of BS and i mean a bunch. I myself dont own any Sonic Youth albums, and have only heard them on occasion. What this means, is that I will not sit here and wax intellect on whether or not they have "soul" or not and why that should be the defining characteristic in why they are better than another band, as opposed to you. I guarentee that Dave has a TON of soul and passion behind his music, at least alot more than you pretend to know.

Based on this assumption of yours i can automatically tell that you dont any albums or even bothered listening to one, at least with an open mind. If you even knew the meaning behind most of his songs, that alone would prove that he has plenty of "soul" or "dirt" or whatever the hell you call it.

rocketsauce, these are just opinions and taste. It's not a big deal. I also think DMB is vastly overrated, but I'm not angry about his success.

It's not supposed to be ironic. It's supposed to be fun. Phish concerts are fun. The people there are nice, friendly and, for the most part, down-to-earth. And for the most part, they're there for the music. Just like the concerts many other jambands have.

Why, oh why, do people start threads like this? Music is a subjective art. If you don't like a particular artist, genre or "scene", move on. No one really cares if you don't like it.

Man I don't pretend to know anything, I find it leaves you in a less than desirable predicament.
Exactly, NOBODY EVER SAID ANYTHING ABOUT BEING BETTER!
In fact, DMB are better musicians than say a Sonic Youth.
I simply like it unperfected. It more closely speaks to my off-kilter views and subsequent life. 'Tis O.K. Listening to Daniel Johnston makes me cry. Thelonoius Monk still sends shivers up and down my spine after listening to him for 10 years. My wife has a big f**king scar all the way down her forehead from a dog attack. These differences and subtle variations are what I find truly beautiful. I live a fractured life, I enjoy fractured things. You and I are different...I still like you.
Uhhhh.....I usually try to do albums, it seldom fits. ;D
Speaking of assumptions....
If you had one iota of a fraction of an inkling of what I am, is, are, and shall be (Dr. Teeth & the Electric Mayhem....sorry) you most likely wouldn't jump to one.
And uhm... I've given Dave plenty o' spins....I DON'T LIKE IT!
But that's not to say I have anything against the guy. I'm glad he's doing well, I just think he's overrated......

and has no soul.