The Running Man

MOD NOTE: Split off from a Dark City review thread.

Was with you all the way, and then you throw this ugly little item in there.

Really now, not everyone who likes a dub is because they can't read. It very well could be because it was a well made one.

John Sinnott

Come on Running, he didn't say that people who liked dubs couldn't read.

As for dub tracks I've heard some good ones, no doubt about that. But I can't name one live-action film that has a dub that is superior to the original track. Can you?

pro-bassoonist

Sure, it could be a good dub but it will never be something a film enthusiast, or a casual knowledgeable viewer, would favor over the original language track. The same goes for colorization, the same goes for PAN/SCAN-ing, the same goes for DNR.

High-definition's mission should be to present film to us in a manner replicating as close as possible what its creator envisioned. Blu-ray allows for that. Going the opposite direction - adjusting the integrity of the transfer to the liking of a selected few - simply should not be tolerated. It is very simple!

And I just do not think that every time an advanced format (DVD, BR, etc) is presented with the dilemma of pleasing a few early adopters who may or may not be entirely familiar with the nature of film transposition we should give up citing the mass consumer factor. Studios should get it or abandon the market they are trying to build at once.

I am sorry this isn't the politically correct way to say it but the challenge we face is very real. So we either do it the right way or stay with SDVD and stop wasting our time.

Pro-B

ps
By the way John was absolutely correct, I was not trying to demean those who may not wish to read. I was trying to bring up the fact that pleasing while attacking the integrity of the original source is simply unacceptable. That is what DNR does.

The Running Man

Now we've just entered elitist territory. So you are saying that despite all the years I've spent watching cinema from all over the world, all the movies I won in my collection, all the research I've done on directors, actors, etc... I am now NOT a film enthusiast or knowledgeable because there have been dub tracks I have preferred over the original?

Sorry, but this is not the same as colorization, PAN/SCAN-ing, or DNR.

You are continuing to demean by outright ignoring for the second time that there are those that watch a dub track simply because it is a well made one. Not because "not reading" is what they have on their minds.

Yakuza Bengoshi

Maybe we can all just agree that we're purists to different degrees depending on the manipulation at issue. Whether its coloration, changed aspect ratio, DNR, replaced music, remixed audio, dubbing, new or enhanced special effects, a director's cuts, or any other modifications from the original theatrical presentation, we're all going to care about the manipulation to different degrees. While that may make some of us more purist or rigid than others, I don't think that makes any of us elitist per se.

pro-bassoonist

For me it is precisely the same issue and I am sorry if this sounds like elitist talk to you. I personally have zero interest in Blu-Ray if a trend is set where DNR is used to disrupt the integrity of film transferring. Once again, we are talking about film not digital photography.

Specifically to dubs and subtitles - the analogy I used above is anything but foreign to the discussion. There was a time with DVD when the studios seriously began manipulating what I consider to be just as important of an element for the overall viewing experience as are PAN/SCAN-ing, colorization, etc. Let me give you a good example: do a search on this forum to see how Asterix was handled - the original audio without subtitles is on the UK disc plus the English dub, both of those offer different cuts of the film. If you wish to talk Asian cinema then the issue gets even more complicated. So, for you this may sound like elitist talk but I personally am looking at BR as the format where everything DVD struggled with is eliminated (improper PAL-NTSC conversions, improper ratios, subtitling (yellow), etc). Adding yet another issue to be weary with, DNR, is unacceptable to me.

Pro-B

The Running Man

You and I, as was highlighted by my first post on this thread, are in 100% agreement on this issue.

It's your comments about how anyone who watches a dub is because they don't want to read and no one who is a knowledgeable film enthusiast would ever like a dub that is the problem. You are making an absolute statement with that as if it is an unquestionable fact. That my friend, is elitism.

I am, and others I know and others that definitely exist in the world , are proof that is not a fact. So I hope that you think differently about that for the future.

And as a side note, yellow subtitles isn't some sort of "struggle" of DVDs. It's a preference plain and simple. I am personally not bothered by yellow subtitles and would much rather make fusses about more deeper and important issues like dubtitles or just plain bad translation. Not the color of the letters.

John Sinnott

As I mentioned earlier, I can't think of a live action movie where the dub is better than the original audio track. So far you've said that they exist, several times in fact, but you haven't named any. Prove me wrong. Name one.

Sweet Baby James

Ichi the Killer. I love seeing Japanese guys running around with heavy duty cockney accents.

The Running Man

John,
it sounds like to me that you've made you decision more on the idea that "no live action dubs are good" rather than you actually being open minded and not following the orders given on forums on what to think.

So whatever I name doesn't matter because you are just going to come back with, "No, it ain't".

John Sinnott

That's a cop out Running Man. Why so scared to name a movie? Even if I disagreed with you, other people reading this thread could check it out and decide for themselves.

Let me rephrase the question then: What is your favorite dub track on a live action foreign film?

Paul Mavis

Jumping in here (probably unwisely), and not taking any sides, but as a devil's advocate, I can see the validity (and pleasure) of dubs, while still recognizing that the original tracks are in most cases (particularly with newer films), preferable.

Don't forget that the widespread dubbing that went on in the late 50s and most of the 60s by guys like Joseph E. Levine, Henry Saperstein, AIP and other releasing companies brought European art films (as well as a lot of foreign, fun schlock, too) to the general American public, which was "eased" into appreciating films that they may not have enjoyed, right off the bat, because of the language difference (Fellini, whose sixties' films were often dubbed when released here, often commented on this, in regards to reaching the U.S. market). Dubbing, perhaps more than any other factor, brought the "art film" to the general U.S. audience back then (acknowledged in Minnelli's Two Weeks in Another Town, based on Irwin Shaw's novel, that had the "art" of dubbing as a central subplot of the film).

As well, our films are routinely dubbed in other countries, with no corresponding outcry from native audiences who watch them with or without subtitles. As a "film enthusiast," I can see the desire to see stuff in its original, pristine state. But as just a "film fan," as well, I can see how a dub can be a separate, viable aesthetic experience.

As for dubs I've enjoyed, I don't think you can factor out the nostalgia factor, either. I grew up watching foreign films that had certain voice actors associated with certain stars. I don't think I ever actually heard Marcello Mastroianni's real voice until I saw his stuff at school with original tracks. Is it "better" to hear him now the "correct" way in The 10th Victim (the old DVD edition offers both tracks)? Probably. But I'd be lying if I said I don't have nostalgia for the dubbed version (when I re-watch it, I usually pick the dubbed version). I've talked with a lot of people who grew up on the dubbed Godzilla stuff, too, who express a weird feeling when they hear the originals now on DVD -- they know it's probably the best way to hear it, but they miss those dubs. It's two separate experiences, but I don't think one has to negate the other.

The Running Man

Who's scared? What cop out? I made my point quite clear as to why engaging in a discussion with you on that kind mindset is pointless. You are basically challenging me to name something that will change your view and the problem is that what you are on about isn't based on an individual basis, it's based on general principle for you.

And Paul, I do appreciate the well meaning post, but your opening paragraph betrays it's promise of not taking any sides since you say in most cases the original track is preferable. Doesn't really sound like it's based on anything else except a "rule". I find an original track preferable over a dub if the dub just isn't as good. Not out of nostalgia or some out of place moral issue.

I find it quite fascinating that the quality of many things are what's considered in reviews but when it comes to dubbing, the quality of the work is never considered. Most of the reviewers online never seem to come to the realization that there are good and bad dubs, yet they make strange statements like, "it's a bad dub" which would lead one to believe that they've seen a "good dub" but they never mentioned one. So why write, "it's a bad dub"?

Most reviewers just don't want to admit, or perhaps they don't even realize, that a lot of this stuff really just comes from following the pack. Notice how when I write a simple comment like this I am seen as not a "purist" or not "knowledgeable in cinema", despite the fact that I have a movie collection that would put most rental shops to shame and that includes movies from all over the world. All because I acknowledge that yes people, there are good dubs made and yes I have seen a number I prefer over the original tracks.

It would be far more mature for a reviewer with such heavy prejudice to just not review the dub track and stop it with the whole, "I'm going to 'advise' you how to watch your movie despite it being based on my prejudice and not really me actually discerning if the dub is well made or not" mentality.

It really isn't that big of a deal for me. If there is a dub on it, I'll check it out and if I like it cool. If I don't then I won't and I'll just watch the original version. And even if I like the original version, I'll still check out the dub just to see how it is. And if it is good then cool...I'll like two versions of the film. If maybe I'll prefer the dub then hey...I prefer the dub or maybe I'll still prefer the original. And that's that.

But the silliness that reviewers make this into is just ridiculous. Going as far as judging character, integrity, and even intelligence of people on this issue.

Peace and love ya'll.

John Sinnott

No you didn't. You said that since I asked you for a film title, I didn't have an open mind. Since I wanted to discuss the merits of the dub tracks on different films, that made me biased. If you're afraid to list your favorite dub track, fine. No skin off my nose.

I do find it odd that someone who is trying to defend dubs and (presumably) convince people that they are worth considering is doing so without giving any evidence. In essence your argument boils down to "There are good dubs, and if you don't believe me then it is pointless in talking to you."

Okay, whatever.

The funniest part is that I've reviewed quite a few anime shows where I mentioned that the dub is superior to the Japanese track and even discuss why. It's clear that I'm not a snob who thinks that the original language is the only valid option.

http://www.dvdtalk.com/reviews/18478...ol-hoursvol-1/ :

"I alternated tracks with each episode, and I have to admit that I liked the English dub a little better. The Japanese track has Mika sounding like a young kid which is a bit irritating. The English cast gave her a more adult sounding voice which I thought worked better."

http://www.dvdtalk.com/reviews/18249...yama-hijinks/:

"The English track has some very good talent, and Laura Bailey does an outstanding job as Sana. The way she pronounces the phrase "monkey-boy" while insulting Akita and his pals always gets me laughing. Her delivery really makes the English dub very entertaining. "


But as you say Running Man, "the quality of the dub is never considered," so I must be wrong.

Josh Z

WTF? How did this thread get derailed into an argument about dubs? What does any of that have to do with Dark City?

Yakuza Bengoshi

If I may quote The Running Man here, "it sounds like to me that you've made you decision more on the idea that 'no live action dubs' are [relevant to Dark City] rather than you actually being open minded and not following the orders given on forums on what to think."

Heliosphann

This thread is BRUTAL...

The Running Man

No.

I said it seems that don't have an open mind because of this statement you made:

As for dub tracks I've heard some good ones, no doubt about that. But I can't name one live-action film that has a dub that is superior to the original track.

And this is your problem. There is no "evidence" . I've read some of the reviews in which you thought a particular anime dub was bad and I totally disagreed with you.

So if we were discussing "bad dubs" and I asked you to name me one and you named a that particular title you thought was bad, how can that be "evidence" of a "bad dub" if I don't agree with you that it was?

That's why you telling me to "prove" you wrong on this is silly.

You are wrong. The topic of conversation is live action dubs. Not anime dubs.

The Man with the Golden Doujinshi

Rikki-O: Story of Ricky

The dub makes it an even more amusing movie to watch. Not only that, but I watch it with the dub and subtitles because they're both slightly different but different enough to make it twice as amusing.

The bizarre dub for a bizarre movie just makes it that much better.

toddly6666

A dubbed DTS-ES soundtrack is always better and has priority over an original mono soundtrack....




(kidding)

John Sinnott

Where did I say "prove"? I asked you to name your favorite dub track.

You are right though. The unshakable logic of your posts, the premises supported by nothing but the rightness of your position, the circular arguments (loved the "This is a bad dub" one particularly) and the unfathomable grammar have totally crushed my request for you to name a great dub track.

Oh, the ignominy of defeat. *whimper*

JOKipper

"Better" dub tracks are indeed very rare. Offhand, the only dubbed soundtrack that I would consider as being better than the original would be the English version of The Good, the Bad and the Ugly. But, it was an unusual case, with Mickey Knox's script translations being approved by Leone, and the main actors performing their lines in English anyway.

Brian T

You folks oughta see him in action over at AsianDVDGuide!

Nonetheless, I'm prone to agree with "Running Man" in all this. The appreciation or dislike of dubbing is subjective, so naming names is largely futile because some will agree, some won't, but judged on their own merits and against each other (rather than original language tracks) there are indeed some sterling examples of the art of dubbing itself. Whether you prefer them over the original language, over the technical quality of the original language track, or don't bother with them at all is only relevant to you, I would think.

islandclaws

I grew up on the AIP dubbed Godzilla films of the 60's and 70's. Even now, when they have versions available with the original Japanese audio, I prefer to watch them dubbed because that's how I remembered them best. Perhaps my example is too influenced by nostalgia, but it is a preferred version for me... as long as it's not the newly created int'l dubs.

Many spaghetti westerns and horror films from Italy, specifically Argento's films, are more enjoyable as a dubbed film than in their native language. As a rule of thumb I almost always go for original audio on a DVD, but the above examples are the few instances where I prefer one over the other.

The Running Man

Your second post on this thread. Here :
As I mentioned earlier, I can't think of a live action movie where the dub is better than the original audio track. So far you've said that they exist, several times in fact, but you haven't named any. Prove me wrong. Name one.



Who said John was taking this personally?

Who said that?



I love the "unfathomable grammar" part. Taking it to insults when I never even did. Classy move there John, especially since we are at a forum and I'm not writing a thesis. Such a comment is always the sign of someone getting frustrated by his/her lack of ability to able to maintain a decent argument.

Ah well...


Edit:
By the way, Mister Peepers. You mis-credited the author of that quote you put up. It was John who wrote that, not me. You can tell too because he's the one with the fathomable grammar.