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Minimum wage discussion thread

Old 12-30-21, 01:55 PM
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Minimum wage discussion thread

This topic seems to be growing a lot in the political meme thread and is certainly worthy of discussion. I am wholeheartedly in favor of people being able to make a living wage off of one full-time job and think the minimum wage should be raised to match inflation in an ongoing manner. I was making about $6/hr back in college in the early 90s and a lot of states are still at the federal minimum wage of 7.25 which is a joke and impossible to live on.
Old 12-30-21, 04:55 PM
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Re: Minimum wage discussion thread

The minimum wage in the US is sad and embarrassing. But then again, I would support a universal basic income, so I'm obviously insane.
Old 12-30-21, 05:06 PM
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Re: Minimum wage discussion thread

You can’t even live off the proposed $15hr these days. NH sucks.
Old 12-30-21, 06:46 PM
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Re: Minimum wage discussion thread

I'm curious... when did minimum wage become the wage that people are supposed to live on? I thought it was for people just entering the workforce, introducing them to the work ethic. At least that was the way it was viewed when I was making minimum wage. I would have laughed at anyone who told me I was supposed to support myself on it.

Has our educational system sunk so low that minimum wage is the best people can hope to achieve in adulthood? If so, why do we accept that and try to cover it up by now considering minimum wage a "living wage"?
Old 12-30-21, 06:51 PM
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Re: Minimum wage discussion thread

Originally Posted by X View Post
I'm curious... when did minimum wage become the wage that people are supposed to live on? I thought it was for people just entering the workforce, introducing them to the work ethic. At least that was the way it was viewed when I was making minimum wage. I would have laughed at anyone who told me I was supposed to support myself on it.

Has our educational system sunk so low that minimum wage is the best people can hope to achieve in adulthood? If so, why do we accept that and try to cover it up by now considering minimum wage a "living wage"?
Thatís what FDR wanted.

Before his presidency began, Roosevelt was deeply concerned with what he saw as the diminishing purchasing power of the "forgotten man," low-income farm and factory workers who were economically devastated by the Great Depression. Among other labor policy proposals like the standard forty-hour workweek, Roosevelt sought to restore this purchasing power through increased wages, which he hoped would spur additional spending and economic growth to help cover the increased cost of labor.

Ultimately, he hoped to mandate that all workers would be paid "living wages" as described in his
1933 speech on the National Industrial Recovery Act, "It seems to me to be equally plain that no business which depends for existence on paying less than living wages to its workers has any right to continue in this country. By 'business' I mean the whole of commerce as well as the whole of industry; by workers I mean all workers, the white-collar class as well as the men in overalls; and by living wages, I mean more than a bare subsistence level-I mean the wages of decent living
Old 12-30-21, 07:48 PM
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Re: Minimum wage discussion thread

It would be interesting if minimum wage jobs were restricted to only people who did not need to earn a living wage. I think the country's economy would probably look vastly different.
Old 12-30-21, 10:19 PM
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Re: Minimum wage discussion thread

Originally Posted by X View Post
I'm curious... when did minimum wage become the wage that people are supposed to live on? I thought it was for people just entering the workforce, introducing them to the work ethic. At least that was the way it was viewed when I was making minimum wage. I would have laughed at anyone who told me I was supposed to support myself on it.

Has our educational system sunk so low that minimum wage is the best people can hope to achieve in adulthood? If so, why do we accept that and try to cover it up by now considering minimum wage a "living wage"?
Originally Posted by Draven View Post
As you can see, it was supposed to be a living wage since its inception. How do you feel about your ignorance now?
Old 12-30-21, 11:23 PM
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Re: Minimum wage discussion thread

Originally Posted by spainlinx0 View Post
As you can see, it was supposed to be a living wage since its inception. How do you feel about your ignorance now?
The civility displayed in this comment reminds me why I spend so little time in this forum.
Old 12-30-21, 11:56 PM
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Re: Minimum wage discussion thread

Originally Posted by X View Post
I'm curious... when did minimum wage become the wage that people are supposed to live on?
Pretty much from the beginning. Minimum wage laws were implemented during the Progressive Era at the state level to combat sweatshops, which payed nonlivable incomes. The federal minimum wage was implemented by FDR pursuant to the Fair Labor Standards Act, and as the name implies, that legislation was promulgated to allow the federal government to address unfair labor practices, including substandard wages.

I don't know where you got the idea that minimum wages are supposed to be some sort of "training wheel" pay for high school kids, but that's not the historical basis for minimum wage laws.
Old 12-30-21, 11:58 PM
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Re: Minimum wage discussion thread

Originally Posted by X View Post
The civility displayed in this comment reminds me why I spend so little time in this forum.
To be fair, you implied that anyone earning minimum wage is an uneducated rube who has only himself to blame, so civility is as civility does.
Old 12-31-21, 06:34 AM
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Re: Minimum wage discussion thread

If certain jobs are supposed to be training wheels for new-to-the-workforce people who donít have to support themselves, aka high schoolers and maybe some college kids, why would we as a society expect those places to be open for business during school hours? Is anyone really advocating that retail stores, restaurants, hotels, dry cleaners, childcare facilities, etc. only open for business from like 4 pm - 9 pm on weekdays from Sept - May? I guess I didnít realize all the Ďlazy people donít want to workí people on the right were specifically calling out teenagers over the past year.

Also, as I mentioned in the discussion in the meme thread, a lot of people seem to be dramatically underestimating the near-term impact of technology on the skill levels needed for many jobs. A lot of technology-and-labor discussion focuses on automation and certain jobs ceasing to exist or being able to be done by a far smaller number of workers. Those are certainly concerns over the long term, but more immediately weíre seeing technology reduce the levels of skill and knowledge needed to perform a wide and diverse range of jobs. In the truly free market that some seem to want, that would exert downward pressure on wages for a lot of society and we would see a larger and larger percentage of jobs approaching minimum pay levels.
Old 12-31-21, 09:26 AM
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Re: Minimum wage discussion thread

The perception of minimum wage as being only for teens or people just starting out has been pushed by people who want to keep those "kinds of people" in their place. Too many innocent people have fallen for that rhetoric but if they're making a good faith effort to learn more about then we need to show the grace and willingness to educate them (as long as they show they are taking in the new info).

My first job many years ago in the late 80s/early 90s was fast food like many others and the number of adults working these jobs was always a very high percentage. And these were adults who were simply trying to put food on the table for their kids. Or sometimes senior citizens who's retirement funds weren't quite enough. There were teenagers, sure, but most didn't stay long term - there was a lot of churn.

But those adults that came in and busted their butts, picking up extra shifts and staying over, they absolutely deserved a living wage, and they do not deserve the scorn of those who call them just "burger-flippers". Fast food is hard work. The work is hard and dealing with the Karens is hard.
Even if it wasn't, everyone deserves to have a wage that keeps them food and shelter secure, which is why I'm also a crazy person that supports some form of a universal basic income.
Old 12-31-21, 09:58 AM
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Re: Minimum wage discussion thread

Originally Posted by maxfisher View Post
If certain jobs are supposed to be training wheels for new-to-the-workforce people who donít have to support themselves, aka high schoolers and maybe some college kids, why would we as a society expect those places to be open for business during school hours? Is anyone really advocating that retail stores, restaurants, hotels, dry cleaners, childcare facilities, etc. only open for business from like 4 pm - 9 pm on weekdays from Sept - May? I guess I didnít realize all the Ďlazy people donít want to workí people on the right were specifically calling out teenagers over the past year.

Also, as I mentioned in the discussion in the meme thread, a lot of people seem to be dramatically underestimating the near-term impact of technology on the skill levels needed for many jobs. A lot of technology-and-labor discussion focuses on automation and certain jobs ceasing to exist or being able to be done by a far smaller number of workers. Those are certainly concerns over the long term, but more immediately weíre seeing technology reduce the levels of skill and knowledge needed to perform a wide and diverse range of jobs. In the truly free market that some seem to want, that would exert downward pressure on wages for a lot of society and we would see a larger and larger percentage of jobs approaching minimum pay levels.
this.

Originally Posted by milo bloom View Post
The perception of minimum wage as being only for teens or people just starting out has been pushed by people who want to keep those "kinds of people" in their place. Too many innocent people have fallen for that rhetoric but if they're making a good faith effort to learn more about then we need to show the grace and willingness to educate them (as long as they show they are taking in the new info).

My first job many years ago in the late 80s/early 90s was fast food like many others and the number of adults working these jobs was always a very high percentage. And these were adults who were simply trying to put food on the table for their kids. Or sometimes senior citizens who's retirement funds weren't quite enough. There were teenagers, sure, but most didn't stay long term - there was a lot of churn.

But those adults that came in and busted their butts, picking up extra shifts and staying over, they absolutely deserved a living wage, and they do not deserve the scorn of those who call them just "burger-flippers". Fast food is hard work. The work is hard and dealing with the Karens is hard.
Even if it wasn't, everyone deserves to have a wage that keeps them food and shelter secure, which is why I'm also a crazy person that supports some form of a universal basic income.
And this.
Old 12-31-21, 12:59 PM
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Re: Minimum wage discussion thread

Originally Posted by JasonF View Post
To be fair, you implied that anyone earning minimum wage is an uneducated rube who has only himself to blame, so civility is as civility does.
Old 12-31-21, 04:56 PM
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Re: Minimum wage discussion thread

One thing that has diminished the livability of minimum wage is consumer technology. The monthly expense for cell phone. cable/sat/streaming. air conditioning, child care was $0.00. If workers got these for free minimum wage would be closer to going as far as it use to. Plus most jobs had health insurance and retirement plan added in on top of the minimum wage. Give everybody that free too. Figure out what all that costs and raise minimum wage to cover it.
Old 12-31-21, 05:58 PM
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Re: Minimum wage discussion thread

Originally Posted by JasonF View Post
I don't know where you got the idea that minimum wages are supposed to be some sort of "training wheel" pay for high school kids, but that's not the historical basis for minimum wage laws.
I think it's probably a talking point from ancaps, libertarian think tanks, and other right-wing woo-woo slingers that's been amplified ad nauseam in the past few decades.

Tell a big lie long enough, and people stop questioning it and it becomes a truth they cling to.

Like how the Civil War had nothing to do with slavery.


Old 12-31-21, 06:07 PM
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Re: Minimum wage discussion thread

I wish I could find a definition for ancap because thatís one of the few terms I canít grok from context.
Old 12-31-21, 06:28 PM
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Re: Minimum wage discussion thread

Originally Posted by milo bloom View Post
I wish I could find a definition for ancap because thatís one of the few terms I canít grok from context.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho-capitalism


Old 12-31-21, 07:51 PM
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Re: Minimum wage discussion thread

Originally Posted by Josh-da-man View Post
anarchy and capitalism, two great tastes that ...

how the fuck could anyone be so stupid as to think that would work?
Old 12-31-21, 08:04 PM
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Re: Minimum wage discussion thread

Originally Posted by Josh-da-man View Post
I was hoping more for a personalized definition but I think I kinda got it from that. As soon as I saw ďlibertarianĒ I knew where it was headed.

And the thing about control via competing insurance companies? Itís like they want the Trade Federation from the prequels.
Old 01-01-22, 06:09 PM
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Re: Minimum wage discussion thread

Originally Posted by JasonF View Post
To be fair, you implied that anyone earning minimum wage is an uneducated rube who has only himself to blame, so civility is as civility does.
I guess I read X's comment differently. I read it as a criticism of the acceptance of minimum wage as the standard wage. Then again, that has been my major criticism of minimum wage as well. It sets an overly-simplified metric for what an hour of labor should cost an employer, regardless of the type of labor or profit from the output.

This might sound a bit trivial: minimum wage should not equal a livable wage, a livable wage should drive what minimum wage is.

As Kenbuzz took a shit-ton of flack for, I believe not all jobs should have the same minimum wage as not all jobs are the same nor do they create the same economic output. Minimum wage is the next evolution from slavery. I forget who was the other member was that made a similar comment in the meme thread ... Slavery meant an "employer" (I use that term in air quotes, so don't get shitty) had NO obligation to those laboring for them. Some civilizations introduced laws requiring minimum requirements for treatments of slaves (e.g., Code Noir) ... in a sense, minimum wage. When slavery was finally outlawed in the United States, share cropping took its place. Still, the minimum that an "employer" (again, air quote) had to provide to those laboring for him. When share cropping was abolished, minimum wage took it's place. Employers were told "this is the bare minimum you must do" and that is what they did.

I'd much rather see laws tying wages to the performance of the economy and the corporation than setting a basic building block that doesn't work in every situation. If a company isn't paying a fair-share of its profit to the people who make that possible, tax the hell out of them. It pisses me off to no end when companies like McDonalds and Walmart use public welfare benefits as an employee benefit.
Old 01-01-22, 06:18 PM
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Re: Minimum wage discussion thread

As far as minimum wage as a "training" wage or pay for "underage workers who don't have life responsibilities" (I couldn't think of a better way to say that) ... No. Those are very specific things in wage laws separate from minimum wage. But employers chose to just default to minimum wage to keep things easy.

Today, Illinois's minimum wage goes up to $12/hour. If you are under age 18, the minimum wage is $9.25/hour. New employees in the first 90 days of employment can be paid $11.50. So yes, the system does account for those differences.
https://www2.illinois.gov/idol/Laws-Rules/FLS/Pages/minimum-wage-rates-by-year.aspx
https://www2.illinois.gov/idol/FAQs/...rtime-faq.aspx
Old 01-01-22, 07:04 PM
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Re: Minimum wage discussion thread

I'm sure most of those in this topic who responded to Xs query would just love for minimum wage to be increased to $50, so everyone could get childcare, cable, expensive smartphones, air conditioning, a white picket fence, and no body would suffer anymore. That's sadly not how life is today, especially today. The super-rich are undermining everything, as it is, marginalizing all of the middle class. It wouldn't matter if minimum was $50 or $10, there would still be unhappy people, suffering people, people being taken advantage of, etc All that raising minimum wage to $50 would get us is a profound and sudden stagflation, a lowering of middle class (perhaps its elimination), and the liberals could "feel good" about increasing the minimum wage.
Old 01-01-22, 07:10 PM
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Re: Minimum wage discussion thread

In my experience, the idea that a minimum wage shouldn't be a livable wage is a uniquely American attitude among first world countries, and sadly I can't say that I'm the least bit surprised.
Old 01-01-22, 07:20 PM
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Re: Minimum wage discussion thread

Originally Posted by zyzzle View Post
I'm sure most of those in this topic who responded to Xs query would just love for minimum wage to be increased to $50, so everyone could get childcare, cable, expensive smartphones, air conditioning, a white picket fence, and no body would suffer anymore. That's sadly not how life is today, especially today. The super-rich are undermining everything, as it is, marginalizing all of the middle class. It wouldn't matter if minimum was $50 or $10, there would still be unhappy people, suffering people, people being taken advantage of, etc All that raising minimum wage to $50 would get us is a profound and sudden stagflation, a lowering of middle class (perhaps its elimination), and the liberals could "feel good" about increasing the minimum wage.
While thatís one hell of an effort, youíre either slightly too late or way too early to be contending for straw man of the year.

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