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What are the moral obligations of the vaccinated to the unvaccinated?

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What are the moral obligations of the vaccinated to the unvaccinated?

Old 08-25-21, 08:48 AM
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What are the moral obligations of the vaccinated to the unvaccinated?

My employer/university is requiring everyone to be vaccinated, with certain opt-opts available, and we've now all returned to the office. With the delta uptick, they've now reinstated a mask requirement for everyone indoors. This got me thinking.

Many people did what they should have. They socially isolated. They wore masks. They got the vaccine. This was all, I think, under the assumption that the vaccine would be developed, we'd get it, and life would return to normal. The ground now seems to have changed. There IS no end-game where things return to normal. We're not waiting for anything anymore. Everyone who wanted the vaccine now has it. (Some corner-cases excepted.) But, it's not returning to normal. And it's not because of the people who fulfilled their part of the social contract.

People who have done the right thing are now being asked to continue to put up with masks, shut downs, etc, in order to protect people who are explicitly opting out. But why? Do the vaccinated really have a moral obligation to protect the unvaccinated? What is the end-game now? There doesn't seem to be some magic event that will ever be reached where we can go back to normal again. I'm not asking if you should or should not get it, but, rather, when does this end given that the magic "enough people are vaccinated" number will NEVER be reached.

(Corner cases excepted. The immunocompromised get screwed ... but, again, its not the vaccinated/masking that are doing the screwing and I suspect they are used to being careful. And, kids are coming.)

(This seemed to be a separate discussion, to me, then the general political thread, so I made a new one. Feel free to move it to that thread if I've violated the social contract.
Old 08-25-21, 08:52 AM
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Re: What are the moral obligations of the vaccinated to the unvaccinated?

I will continue to wear my mask when in public spaces, despite being vaccinated AND making it through a breakthrough case of COVID. It is a complete non-issue to put a piece of cloth on my face when I'm in Target for 10 minutes. And this is strictly to help protect children.

Once kids are able to be vaccinated, I would hope that all restrictions would then drop. Because at that point, everyone has the option to get protected. I feel for the immunocompromised, but they already have to be careful and can probably handle things just fine without the mandates. Like people with deadly food allergies - they know how to take care of themselves in public.

I feel zero moral obligations to the unvaccinated. I am literally out of fucks to give.
Old 08-25-21, 09:13 AM
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Re: What are the moral obligations of the vaccinated to the unvaccinated?

Originally Posted by Draven View Post
I will continue to wear my mask when in public spaces, despite being vaccinated AND making it through a breakthrough case of COVID. It is a complete non-issue to put a piece of cloth on my face when I'm in Target for 10 minutes. And this is strictly to help protect children.

Once kids are able to be vaccinated, I would hope that all restrictions would then drop. Because at that point, everyone has the option to get protected. I feel for the immunocompromised, but they already have to be careful and can probably handle things just fine without the mandates. Like people with deadly food allergies - they know how to take care of themselves in public.

I feel zero moral obligations to the unvaccinated. I am literally out of fucks to give.
But the issues is not wearing a mask for 10 minutes in Target. The issue, and question of the thread is, should we accept the seismic changes to our ways of life we are now forced to endure?

Specific case in point for you: the theater. Would you go? Should you be forced to wear a mask for a show? What about going for a drink after the show? Masks don't help there.
Old 08-25-21, 09:20 AM
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Re: What are the moral obligations of the vaccinated to the unvaccinated?

Good questions. Sadly there's too much heat and not enough light being cast on the matter.

IMO, the vaccinated have a shared obligation to help protect the vulnerable unvaccinated people. People who can't get the shot because of underlying conditions need to take some responsibility to protect themselves and the rest of us should take some responsibility to help protect them. It shouldn't be an either/or situation. What that looks like in a practical sense, may be along the lines of things like store hours designated for vulnerable people where masks and distancing are required for everyone during those hours.

Then there are those who have made the decision to not get vaccinated. Their reasons are pretty irrelevant, IMO. They have made a risk assessment and decided that they are willing to take their chances with the virus. In these circumstances, the vaccinated don't have an obligation to do things specifically to protect those willfully unvaccinated people.

Trixie and I are empty-nesters now, but if we still had kids at home, we would do the same thing that we've done all along... make decisions to keep our family and children safe. That had been our responsibility and we didn't expect strangers to bear that burden with us. We didn't expect people to be understanding if our children were unruly in stores... we disciplined our children to behave. We didn't expect strangers to watch out for our children's safety... that was our responsibility. What that looks like in the middle of a pandemic all depends upon the individual family.

Again IMO, we're at a turning point. Because we're unwilling (and perhaps unable) to make nuanced decisions as a society, those with power and influence are acting like impatient parents who don't want to resolve sibling conflicts so they take an all-or-nothing approach... "oh, you won't stop fighting... then no one gets ice cream!" That's a dangerous place to be. Similar to, "we don't want to deal with the flack of selectively looking at some people closer than others so everybody needs to take their shoes off before boarding a plane."

Just as anti-vaxxers change the goal-posts of the reasons for their resistance, so too did the medical community. First it was to flatten the curve, then it was to drive cases down. There hasn't been any discussion about what would define the end of the pandemic. Zero cases? 100% vaccinated? It's open-ended with no objective measurements to be compared against.

One does not have to travel to tin-foil hat conspiracy town to understand that the rich and powerful do things to maintain and increase their riches and power. While most people managed or struggled through the pandemic so far, the rich increased their wealth faster than ever before. The powerful exercised power that they couldn't before the pandemic. Sure, an argument can be made as to why those actions were necessary, but without a clearly defined end, that power is not going to be relinquished.

This is why it is important to not fall into one of the rabbit holes in the extremes, but to navigate around them. It's hard work and it is tiring. But in the end those who do will be better off because of it.
Old 08-25-21, 09:21 AM
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Re: What are the moral obligations of the vaccinated to the unvaccinated?

I've had it up to here with this fucking pandemic and the charges of moral superiority from both sides, to be honest. I have stayed home as much as possible, worn a mask when I'm out in public, and got vaccinated as soon as I was eligible to be. But I'm not making a case that that alone makes me a morally superior human being. For one thing, I openly wish disease and death on people stupid enough to not vaccinate and/or wear masks and/or stay home.

The whole thing was totally preventable and was inappropriately politicized by the previous administration, damn their hides. If I have to wear a mask in public for the rest of my life, I'll fucking wear one. You know why? Because I don't want to get sick! It's not rocket science, but it's being totally obscured amid all this "you're heartless and selfish" and "you're virtue signaling" bullshit.
Old 08-25-21, 10:20 AM
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Re: What are the moral obligations of the vaccinated to the unvaccinated?

This goes too deeply into an Ancient Aliens type theory I developed back in my younger days, but it's very interesting that as a communal species we still struggle to figure out exactly how much we should care about and take care of one another.

FWIW I'm placing the onus on those who would take advantage, 'ants and grasshopper' style.
Old 08-25-21, 10:28 AM
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Re: What are the moral obligations of the vaccinated to the unvaccinated?

Originally Posted by sracer View Post
Good questions. Sadly there's too much heat and not enough light being cast on the matter.

IMO, the vaccinated have a shared obligation to help protect the vulnerable unvaccinated people. People who can't get the shot because of underlying conditions need to take some responsibility to protect themselves and the rest of us should take some responsibility to help protect them. It shouldn't be an either/or situation. What that looks like in a practical sense, may be along the lines of things like store hours designated for vulnerable people where masks and distancing are required for everyone during those hours.

Then there are those who have made the decision to not get vaccinated. Their reasons are pretty irrelevant, IMO. They have made a risk assessment and decided that they are willing to take their chances with the virus. In these circumstances, the vaccinated don't have an obligation to do things specifically to protect those willfully unvaccinated people.

Trixie and I are empty-nesters now, but if we still had kids at home, we would do the same thing that we've done all along... make decisions to keep our family and children safe. That had been our responsibility and we didn't expect strangers to bear that burden with us. We didn't expect people to be understanding if our children were unruly in stores... we disciplined our children to behave. We didn't expect strangers to watch out for our children's safety... that was our responsibility. What that looks like in the middle of a pandemic all depends upon the individual family.

Again IMO, we're at a turning point. Because we're unwilling (and perhaps unable) to make nuanced decisions as a society, those with power and influence are acting like impatient parents who don't want to resolve sibling conflicts so they take an all-or-nothing approach... "oh, you won't stop fighting... then no one gets ice cream!" That's a dangerous place to be. Similar to, "we don't want to deal with the flack of selectively looking at some people closer than others so everybody needs to take their shoes off before boarding a plane."

Just as anti-vaxxers change the goal-posts of the reasons for their resistance, so too did the medical community. First it was to flatten the curve, then it was to drive cases down. There hasn't been any discussion about what would define the end of the pandemic. Zero cases? 100% vaccinated? It's open-ended with no objective measurements to be compared against.

One does not have to travel to tin-foil hat conspiracy town to understand that the rich and powerful do things to maintain and increase their riches and power. While most people managed or struggled through the pandemic so far, the rich increased their wealth faster than ever before. The powerful exercised power that they couldn't before the pandemic. Sure, an argument can be made as to why those actions were necessary, but without a clearly defined end, that power is not going to be relinquished.

This is why it is important to not fall into one of the rabbit holes in the extremes, but to navigate around them. It's hard work and it is tiring. But in the end those who do will be better off because of it.
I think you've struck a pretty good balance here. I think the mandatory masking for certain store hours is a pretty good idea.

I don't consider it a big deal to wear a mask in Target, but yes, I do feel resentful that I still have to because of the unvaccinated. I wore a mask at the gym for half a year, and I don't want to go back to wearing one again just because half the country have fallen down some conspiracy rabbit hole.
Old 08-25-21, 10:34 AM
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Re: What are the moral obligations of the vaccinated to the unvaccinated?

The unvaccinated deserve no sympathy. They've had months to get s shot, but through their own selfishness or stupidity they choose not to get it. I hope they all wind up in the ICU with a $50,000 bill their insurance refuses to cover. Those are the only consequence they can understand.
Old 08-25-21, 11:06 AM
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Re: What are the moral obligations of the vaccinated to the unvaccinated?

There are none.
Old 08-25-21, 11:15 AM
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Re: What are the moral obligations of the vaccinated to the unvaccinated?

Originally Posted by Draven View Post
I will continue to wear my mask when in public spaces, despite being vaccinated AND making it through a breakthrough case of COVID. It is a complete non-issue to put a piece of cloth on my face when I'm in Target for 10 minutes. And this is strictly to help protect children.

Once kids are able to be vaccinated, I would hope that all restrictions would then drop. Because at that point, everyone has the option to get protected. I feel for the immunocompromised, but they already have to be careful and can probably handle things just fine without the mandates. Like people with deadly food allergies - they know how to take care of themselves in public.

I feel zero moral obligations to the unvaccinated. I am literally out of fucks to give.
This is pretty much my exact experience. Iíve been wearing masks (I admit to slacking off over the summer after I was vaccinated but since Delta came roaring up I started wearing them again). I was fully vaccinated as soon as I could be, I got my second shot in March, Iíve been working from home since March of 2020, limited my exposure to restaurants, large crowds etc. even after I was vaccinated, and Iím currently getting over a Breakthrough case of COVID, which had me unable to get out of bed for three days. All this because COVID managed to get finally get my family, after a year and a half, through my 4 year oldís day care. Itís coming in on children now because people are too stupid and too selfish to get vaccinated.

I, like Draven, have run out of fucks to give. I started this whole thing looking at both sides, understanding that the shot was very new and people were hesitant to take it. I saw that it was politicized by Trump and realized that people were being divided by party lines but as this has gone on for over a year, I have no more empathy for people to not get the shots. There is enough evidence, enough data to support the benefits and low risks of getting the shot. People who are refusing at this point can go fuck themselves. Same for the people making an issue over school mask mandates. Seriously, go fuck yourselves! Your politicizing your children based on your ignorant conspiracy theories! Go fuck yourselves after you go fuck yourselves!

Say what you want about my level of empathy or moral superiority but I have no sympathy for anyone who dies painfully with a ventilator and isolated from their families anymore. Frankly, Iím more upset that they pussed out and went to the hospital. The least they could do is die at home sticking to their beliefs. With each one that dies, I just think thatís one less Trump/GOP voter weíll have to deal with in the future.

I may be a little bitter at the moment because I did everything ďrightĒ and still got terribly sick just days ago. Iím quarantined again and not happy with Americans in general right now.

Last edited by GoldenJCJ; 08-25-21 at 11:20 AM.
Old 08-25-21, 11:35 AM
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Re: What are the moral obligations of the vaccinated to the unvaccinated?

I am still wearing my mask until my seven year old can get the vaccine (my thoughts are...if he has to wear a mask, so should I). As far as the unvaccinated...at this point it is Darwinism (I could not care less what happens to them at this point)

Last edited by Hulkabrgr; 08-25-21 at 12:06 PM.
Old 08-25-21, 11:41 AM
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Re: What are the moral obligations of the vaccinated to the unvaccinated?

As soon as my children are vaccinated, I will return to the bare minimum of what's required. If there are mandates, or store requirements, I will follow them. Otherwise, I won't bother with just "recommendations", barring some new scientific findings that pushes me over a line of personal risk. I feel for children of anti-vax parents, and hope that they are able to get through all of this without issue. I grew up with anti-vax parents, and started getting my vaccinations when I was able to without their approval. Fortunately, I didn't contract anything during that time.
Old 08-25-21, 11:44 AM
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Re: What are the moral obligations of the vaccinated to the unvaccinated?

Originally Posted by Hulkabrgr View Post
I am still wearing my mask until my seven year old can get the vaccine (my thoughts are...if he has to wear a mask, so should I). As far as the unvaccinated...at this point it is Darwinism (I could honestly care less what happens to them at this point)
could not care less
Old 08-25-21, 12:07 PM
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Re: What are the moral obligations of the vaccinated to the unvaccinated?

Originally Posted by Count Dooku View Post
could not care less
Fixed...One of those days
Old 08-25-21, 12:09 PM
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Re: What are the moral obligations of the vaccinated to the unvaccinated?

I will continue to wear a mask and vaccinate and isolate and distance as recommended.

Wearing a mask isnít a big deal and i donít understand people who think it is. Distancing sucks but luckily i lead a pretty boring ass life going into 2020 so it hasnít affected me as much as most.

Its tough not to get mad at those who are unvaccinated but it does very little good and their inability to understand that weíre in a society together isnít going to change my understanding of that.
Old 08-25-21, 12:14 PM
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Re: What are the moral obligations of the vaccinated to the unvaccinated?

Yeah I think the answer (for me at least) changes once vaccines are available to my kids, but for now my obligation to my kids is pretty high (I admit a little bit of bias there). This means random unvaccinated (or even vaccinated) person I encounter on the street has a possibility of giving me the virus and then there's the possibility that I pass it to my kids, so living cautiously is what I feel I have to do as a (semi) responsible parent. Even though that same parent is sending them to the cesspool that is school in person.

You could then probably argue for the lives of the kids whose parents won't allow them to be vaccinated, though.
Old 08-25-21, 12:16 PM
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Re: What are the moral obligations of the vaccinated to the unvaccinated?

I too have run out of patience for these people. Being stupid is not an opposing opinion. I read a lot of comments on Covid stories & these people don't trust the media, the CDC, the government, etc. But they believe any random whackadoodle that says what they want to hear. Unsurprisingly, none of them have come to their conclusions by discussing with their own Dr.

These are the same people who made us all endure 4 of the most ridiculous years in American history because they thought it would be a good idea to put the guy they knew from the TeeVee in the White House. I'm done with them. They are irredeemable.
Old 08-25-21, 12:18 PM
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Re: What are the moral obligations of the vaccinated to the unvaccinated?

Yeah. My moral obligation is to not slap the shit out of people who desperately deserve it.
Old 08-25-21, 12:19 PM
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Re: What are the moral obligations of the vaccinated to the unvaccinated?

Originally Posted by Paff View Post
Yeah. My moral obligation is to not slap the shit out of people who desperately deserve it.
Thank you for saying that.... there are times when I feel that way too.
Old 08-25-21, 12:24 PM
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Re: What are the moral obligations of the vaccinated to the unvaccinated?

Originally Posted by sracer View Post
Thank you for saying that.... there are times when I feel that way too.
I mean, can't you see yourself doing this while they try to explain their position:


Old 08-25-21, 12:37 PM
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Re: What are the moral obligations of the vaccinated to the unvaccinated?

I think the consensus anger gets to some of the moral issues. Why are people so angry that someone else is smoking three cartons of cigarettes a day? What impact does an unvaccinated suicide have on us such that folks are so angry about them?

I live in a state run by Governor Blue and my twin brother Royce lives under the regime of Governor Red. We both vaccinated at the same time. I get to live with mask mandates at work, dining shut down, restricted hours, and a whole host of other issues in order to control the virus. All with potentially no end in sight for the rest of my life since 20% of the population just simply REFUSES. Royce, though, gets to live his life carefree; everything is open. He's got a better quality of life than I do. Dining, concerts, giant 10,000 person maskless orgies. He doesn't care; HES not going to get COVID so bad he's hospitalized or die from it because he vaccinated in a state with no restrictions.

Well, I mean, until he has a heart attack and needs an ICU bed.

Shades of both Peter Singers drowning child (what obligations do we have to others individually?) and the traditional libertarian problem with pollution (What about the problem of shared resources?)


Old 08-25-21, 12:51 PM
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Re: What are the moral obligations of the vaccinated to the unvaccinated?

In terms of the social contract, the people who refuse vaccination could do A LOT on their end if they also refused hospitalization. They want to roll the dice, then go ahead and let those COVID symptoms play out at home, instead of in an ICU bed. If you come out the other side, then hooray for you. If you end up in a grave, so be it.
Old 08-25-21, 01:05 PM
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Re: What are the moral obligations of the vaccinated to the unvaccinated?

IMO we owe no moral obligation to those who willfully refuse the vaccine. I will continue to try to avoid large crowds and will wear a mast when inside someplace open to the public to protect myself (from whatever new variant comes around), those who can't be vaccinated and those vaccinated people who are still immunocompromised.

Like many other here have said, I have no fucks left to give for those who won't get the shot.
Old 08-25-21, 01:28 PM
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Re: What are the moral obligations of the vaccinated to the unvaccinated?

If the unvaccinated continue to get sick and fill up the hospitals, it hurts everyone. People seem to keep forgetting that every action an individual takes during this pandemic affects everyone. Yes, those who were able to get vaccinated and did get vaccinated did the right thing. Those who could get vaccinated but won't are bad. But that doesn't change the fact that the behavior of the vaccinated can still negatively impact everyone.
Old 08-25-21, 01:53 PM
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Re: What are the moral obligations of the vaccinated to the unvaccinated?

Our country is in the mess we're in right now mainly because of the unvaccinated, who lied about their statuses or simply took advantage of the looser restrictions and are now laying in hospital beds on ventilators.

I feel sorry for the kids who can't get a vaccine right now and are unfortunately catching the virus and it's variants. But, I don't owe the unvaccinated grown ups who obviously don't give a crap about me or you a damn thing.

Putting on a face covering is a small sacrifice to pay right now until this damn situation is under control. If that's all I need to do to be able to go to the movies, see a concert, dine out on occasion or travel, then fine I have no issues with it. I didn't get vaccinated to stay home more or stay home for years. I want this to be over with sooner than later.

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