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Israeli Palestinian Conflict

Old 05-15-21, 12:36 PM
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Israeli Palestinian Conflict

With the escalating violence in Israel this last week I wanted to open up a thread to discuss the issue. About 4 hours ago the Israelis bombed the Al Jazeera and AP offices in Gaza.


Apartheid has been going on for far too long in Israel. It's wrong and as long as the US government funds them we fund it and are as responsible as they are at least in the eyes of the oppressed.
Old 05-15-21, 01:12 PM
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Re: Israeli Palestinian Conflict

Yup, bombing Al Jazeera (AP was in there too) was no accident. Israelis straight up targeting news networks that are broadcasting what they're up to.
Old 05-15-21, 01:44 PM
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Re: Israeli Palestinian Conflict

They're reporting that Biden and the Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas spoke today. Abbas says he urged Biden to intervene in Israeli attacks.
Old 05-15-21, 01:46 PM
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Re: Israeli Palestinian Conflict

Word is that Hamas used the building as cover, knowing it would be hard to bomb.

I'll keep an eye on the news. But the whole thing is way too complex for me. I hope it ends quickly.
Old 05-15-21, 02:00 PM
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Re: Israeli Palestinian Conflict

Originally Posted by Troy Stiffler View Post
Word is that Hamas used the building as cover, knowing it would be hard to bomb.

I'll keep an eye on the news. But the whole thing is way too complex for me. I hope it ends quickly.
I definitely understand it feeling complex with the way it is portrayed by the US media but much like tax law there's a reason for that. Saw a really good clip from one of my favorite political commentators ever the other day where he lays it out and makes a point to say it's not complex.

Old 05-15-21, 03:23 PM
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Re: Israeli Palestinian Conflict

^Good stuff, he's right it's not complicated. And I'd summarize all the "why?" stuff at the end with this:

How does a people with such a history of oppression, become so comfortable in the role of the oppressor? Israel is using it's history of victimhood as a shield against criticism and as carte blanche to do anything they want.
Old 05-15-21, 03:49 PM
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Re: Israeli Palestinian Conflict

Originally Posted by slop101 View Post
Yup, bombing Al Jazeera (AP was in there too) was no accident. Israelis straight up targeting news networks that are broadcasting what they're up to.
The building also housed several ISPs, which reportedly severely cripples internet access in the area.
Old 05-15-21, 04:08 PM
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Re: Israeli Palestinian Conflict

Originally Posted by printerati View Post
The building also housed several ISPs, which reportedly severely cripples internet access in the area.
There has been no evidence provided on this claim or the one on Hamas at this time. Here is the latest from the AP

https://federalnewsnetwork.com/gover...-news-offices/


Last edited by Nesbit; 05-15-21 at 04:15 PM.
Old 05-15-21, 04:31 PM
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Re: Israeli Palestinian Conflict

What I've noticed over the last 20+ years is that these things start with Israel building new settlements, then the Palestinians launch hundreds of rockets every day into Israel, followed by Israel retaliating with superior force.

I'd say that launching hundreds of rockets isn't exactly warranted as retaliation for settlement building on land that Israel won in a war that the other countries started. Israel was the victim of that war, and the fact that they won easily shouldn't be held against them. They weren't the aggressors in 1948 OR 1967. The land they captured in any war started by their neighbors is theirs.
Old 05-15-21, 04:43 PM
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Re: Israeli Palestinian Conflict

Originally Posted by Nesbit View Post
There has been no evidence provided on this claim or the one on Hamas at this time.
Apologies. It does appear that mention of ISPs located in the building is being removed as articles are updated.
Old 05-15-21, 04:47 PM
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Re: Israeli Palestinian Conflict

Originally Posted by printerati View Post
Apologies. It does appear that mention of ISPs located in the building is being removed as articles are updated.
None needed at all here. This thing is still unfolding.
Old 05-15-21, 04:59 PM
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Re: Israeli Palestinian Conflict

Erik, Israel did not "win" land in a war, regardless of what happened in 1967. The internationally recognized borders are those as they existed pre-1967, and do not include the West Bank or Gaza. I staunchly support Israel's right to exist as a secure and independent Jewish state, but that doesn't change the fact that the settlements are illegal.

To Nesbit or other critics of Israel, my question is this: assuming Israel is telling the truth that Hamas was operating out of that building (and I recognize you may think they are lying), what if anything would have been permissible for them to do?
Old 05-15-21, 05:10 PM
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Re: Israeli Palestinian Conflict

I don't know what action I would take. It'd be easier to say what actions I wouldn't take which include leveling a building which reports on activity in the area.

Before any action I would or wouldn't take I would provide proof that Hamas was operating there though even in a week where my hands weren't covered in blood.
Old 05-15-21, 05:38 PM
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Re: Israeli Palestinian Conflict

Originally Posted by JasonF View Post
Erik, Israel did not "win" land in a war, regardless of what happened in 1967. The internationally recognized borders are those as they existed pre-1967, and do not include the West Bank or Gaza. I staunchly support Israel's right to exist as a secure and independent Jewish state, but that doesn't change the fact that the settlements are illegal.
I do find it interesting that in most wars when the aggressor loses if they lose land then that land remains with their intended victims (as partial reparations). But Israel, being Israel, they didn't get to officially keep the land that they won in that war.

I don't blame them one bit. From the first day Israel became a country their neighbors attacked them with the goal of destroying Israel, permanently, and killing all of it's people.

That goal has never changed. If you were surrounded by enemies who wanted you, your friends, family, co-workers, etc, dead I think you'd realize you do whatever you have to do to stop them from achieving that goal.

Old 05-15-21, 05:46 PM
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Re: Israeli Palestinian Conflict

Israel isn't just launching rockets in the hope that they hit something. They have the military capability of targeting a single room in that building. And if that proves too difficult, they stay in surveillance mode until targets leave the building and then hit them or their car(s) with a drone strike. So, I'm not buying the "but Hamas was in there so we had to level the building" story.
Old 05-15-21, 06:12 PM
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Re: Israeli Palestinian Conflict

Originally Posted by Nesbit View Post
I definitely understand it feeling complex with the way it is portrayed by the US media but much like tax law there's a reason for that. Saw a really good clip from one of my favorite political commentators ever the other day where he lays it out and makes a point to say it's not complex.

https://youtu.be/62I61kBahNY
I know it's off topic, but even though I had some smaller issues with Michael Brooks, the guy was legitimately a force for good. RIP. Gone way too fucking soon.
Old 05-15-21, 06:17 PM
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Re: Israeli Palestinian Conflict

Originally Posted by B5Erik View Post
I do find it interesting that in most wars when the aggressor loses if they lose land then that land remains with their intended victims (as partial reparations).
I fully admit to being more ignorant of world history than I probably should be. That said, which particular examples of this do you have in mind?
Old 05-15-21, 06:35 PM
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Re: Israeli Palestinian Conflict

Most major Canadian cities had pro Palestinian demonstrations today, including thousands here in Montreal. This also happened in many other countries around the world.
Old 05-15-21, 06:48 PM
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Re: Israeli Palestinian Conflict

Originally Posted by Dan View Post
I know it's off topic, but even though I had some smaller issues with Michael Brooks, the guy was legitimately a force for good. RIP. Gone way too fucking soon.
Definitely. I miss him a lot. He would have done a lot of good to stop the infighting on the left online in the last 6 months IMO.
Old 05-15-21, 06:58 PM
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Re: Israeli Palestinian Conflict

Originally Posted by B5Erik View Post
I do find it interesting that in most wars when the aggressor loses if they lose land then that land remains with their intended victims (as partial reparations). But Israel, being Israel, they didn't get to officially keep the land that they won in that war.
Not since World War II when wars of conquest were outlawed. Even then, for hundreds of years prior, territorial conquest couldn't just be imposed by one party to a war -- it had to be agreed to in a peace treaty.
Old 05-15-21, 08:05 PM
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Re: Israeli Palestinian Conflict

The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is something I don't see ending within my lifetime. Too many parties are invested in the conflict continuing.
Old 05-15-21, 08:21 PM
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Re: Israeli Palestinian Conflict

Originally Posted by JasonF View Post
Not since World War II when wars of conquest were outlawed. Even then, for hundreds of years prior, territorial conquest couldn't just be imposed by one party to a war -- it had to be agreed to in a peace treaty.
Yeah, I can see that.

I guess this kind of situation hasn't come up a lot - the victims of the war crushing their invaders and fighting them back into their own territory. I mean, both Germany and Japan had to live under foreign rule for several years after WWII, but they were given their land back after that time.

I can just empathize with the Israelis - just a few years after the Nazis attempted to kill all Jews in Europe you had people in the Middle East try to do the same thing, on the very day that Israel officially became a country. This wasn't something where the Israelis attacked the Palestinians (or however they were identified at that time) and the attack on Israel was a retaliatory one. It was unprovoked and another attempt at genocide. Since the Palestinians have never fully backtracked on that goal (wiping Israel off the map and killing all the Jews), I don't see how anyone can expect Israel to back off. I mean, Sadat recognized Israel's right to exist and got killed for it. I don't see the Israelis as the bad guys here. They're defending their lives against people who want them dead.
Old 05-15-21, 09:07 PM
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Re: Israeli Palestinian Conflict

Originally Posted by B5Erik View Post
I don't see the Israelis as the bad guys here.
It's pointless to try to frame this conflict in terms of "good guys" and "bad guys." There are a lot of bad guys (and precious few good guys) leading both the Israelis and the Palestinians. There are a lot of innocent Israelis and Palestinians who just want to live in peace. But there are also a lot of Israelis who want to claim Palestinian land for themselves and a lot of Palestinians who want to drive the Israelis into the sea. If you reflexively say "Israel is in the right no matter what and Palestine is in the wrong" or vice versa, you're inevitably going to find yourself defending monstrous actions.
Old 05-15-21, 09:51 PM
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Re: Israeli Palestinian Conflict

Originally Posted by JasonF View Post
It's pointless to try to frame this conflict in terms of "good guys" and "bad guys." There are a lot of bad guys (and precious few good guys) leading both the Israelis and the Palestinians. There are a lot of innocent Israelis and Palestinians who just want to live in peace. But there are also a lot of Israelis who want to claim Palestinian land for themselves and a lot of Palestinians who want to drive the Israelis into the sea. If you reflexively say "Israel is in the right no matter what and Palestine is in the wrong" or vice versa, you're inevitably going to find yourself defending monstrous actions.
A fair point, however, the people leading Israel today are old enough to have heard the stories from their parents about how horrific it was in Europe during the 30's and 40's. Then to have Israel attacked without provocation, and to have their enemies try a second genocide attempt is more than enough to warrant a strong defense against unprovoked attacks. That defense includes taking land from those who are trying to kill them. If my neighbors were continually trying to kill me and my family I'd burn their house down with them in it. Self defense can take some pretty monstrous actions when you're defending yourself from people bent on murder.
Old 05-15-21, 10:14 PM
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Re: Israeli Palestinian Conflict

^ Your view that Israel has just always been defending itself against unprovoked attacks is a terribly one side view, i.e. it's the "official" Israeli history. And if you still hold those views today, it means that you've never made any effort to find out the other side of the story, and that you'll never change you mind regardless of what anyone says.

On the plus side, you could land a job as Israeli ambassador!

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