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COVID-19 POLITICAL Thread

Old 05-24-21, 01:25 PM
  #12701  
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Re: COVID-19 POLITICAL Thread

Originally Posted by Psi View Post
. We shouldn't get fooled into thinking that the risk has gone away for everyone.
Only a foolish person would think that.
Old 05-24-21, 01:34 PM
  #12702  
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Re: COVID-19 POLITICAL Thread

Originally Posted by RichC2 View Post
I was never able to correlate what the origin of a virus has to do with preventing the spread of it.

Old 05-24-21, 01:34 PM
  #12703  
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Re: COVID-19 POLITICAL Thread

Because none of the Covid vaccinations use any amount of live viruses, it makes it an impossibility for you to be able to shed it and possibly infect someone else. Besides, why would the same people that are not getting vaccinated because they believe that Covid is not a big deal often the same ones that now say the vaccinated could infect them? Where do you differentiate reality from what you simply want to believe? You can't say something isn't a big enough deal to not protect yourself from it and then be scared of it at the same time. It makes zero sense. I have a co-worker whose sister just got out of the hospital and barely survived Covid who himself still believes that Covid is not a big deal. I just hope for the best for them.
Old 05-24-21, 01:40 PM
  #12704  
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Re: COVID-19 POLITICAL Thread

There's a pretty big difference, in my humble opinion, between"The virus was manufactured in a lab and unintentionally not contained"
or"The virus was manufactured in a lab and was deliberately not contained"or"The virus was discovered in the wild, brought to the lab, and subsequently indeliberately not contained"or"The virus was discovered in the wild, brought to the lab, and subsequently deliberately not contained."
or"The virus mutated naturally in the wild. The lab had samples, but it didn't 'escape' from the lab at all."

If someone wants to believe one of the lab scenarios is correct, I'm not the one to say they're wrong, because... Shit... Maybe it was. But I think people should be clear about which version they actually believe, and why that's particularly relevant to how leaders on the other side of the world botched their own response.
To be clear; the intentional release of (essentially) a bioweapon is something that should be addressed accordingly, but I don't think that's a conclusion worth jumping to when it comes to this, because signs do point to attempts to contain the spread, as I recall stories about shut-down cities in that region back in Dec 2019.
Time will tell.
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Old 05-24-21, 01:44 PM
  #12705  
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Re: COVID-19 POLITICAL Thread


Dr. Fauci 'not convinced' coronavirus developed naturally

https://www.9news.com/article/news/n...5-7dde970dec8f

He highlighted how the virus was believed to originate from an animal but he said, 'it could have been something else, and we need to find that out.'

WASHINGTON — Dr. Anthony Fauci, the top immunologist who lead the COVID-19 response in the United States, said he's "not convinced" that the deadly virus was naturally developed and encouraged further investigation into its origins.

During a Poynter event earlier this month, Fauci was asked by PolitiFact managing editor Katie Sanders if he still believed the virus was developed naturally.

"No, actually," Fauci, director of the National Institute of Allergies and Infectious Diseases (NIAID) said. "I'm not convinced about that, and I think we should continue to investigate what went on in China until we continue to find out to the best of our ability exactly what happened."

He highlighted how the virus was believed to originate from an animal, and he said, "it could have been something else, and we need to find that out."
Anyone starting to believe it was too much of a coincidence it emerged this close to a virology lab?

Last edited by cungar; 05-24-21 at 01:51 PM.
Old 05-24-21, 01:47 PM
  #12706  
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Re: COVID-19 POLITICAL Thread

It'd definitely be interesting to find out
Old 05-24-21, 02:12 PM
  #12707  
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Re: COVID-19 POLITICAL Thread

Originally Posted by Dan View Post
But I think people should be clear about which version they actually believe​​​​​​
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I think it's reasonable to say that all 3 scenarios are plausible but we cannot say conclusively which is correct. There is a very technical paper arguing for the second possibility you listed -- basically the Covid-19 virus has a very unusual feature called the "Furin cleavage site" (bored scientists ) that is impossible or unlikely to develop in nature. There are other scientists who argue it's unlikely but not impossible. I think that's where the debate should belong at this time, not some investigation of traffic patterns around hospitals in Wuhan or people in some lab getting sick at that time.

More on cleavage: https://nicholaswade.medium.com/orig...es-6f03564c038
Old 05-24-21, 03:13 PM
  #12708  
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Re: COVID-19 POLITICAL Thread

Originally Posted by RichC2 View Post
I was never able to correlate what the origin of a virus has to do with preventing the spread of it.
It seems to me that if covid-19 was the result of gain of function research then it isn't the great mysterious virus that they claimed it to be. The scientists knew what they did to tweak things and have a better understanding of which methods of transmissibility are more effective than others. If they have to keep the origin a secret then they can't just come out with details about how to effectively prevent the spread without revealing the origin.


Old 05-24-21, 03:17 PM
  #12709  
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Re: COVID-19 POLITICAL Thread

Originally Posted by cungar View Post


Dr. Fauci 'not convinced' coronavirus developed naturally



Anyone starting to believe it was too much of a coincidence it emerged this close to a virology lab?
Last year Dr. Fauci WAS convinced it developed naturally. It would be helpful to know what new information he received that caused him to change his opinion.
Old 05-24-21, 03:23 PM
  #12710  
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Re: COVID-19 POLITICAL Thread

I think beyond those who like the idea of the Chinese lab-created virus because it, to some extent in their minds, exonerates the Trump Administration from some responsibility in their bungled handling of the pandemic, there are many people also who just want to believe that story because it's easier to accept that some evil scientists released this plague on the world rather than it just being the product of agriculture and lack of proper hygiene in third world villages. Because if it's the former, then there's someone to blame and some comfort knowing that it won't be a threat to us in the future if these people are stopped. If it's the latter, then we will continue to be at the mercy of viral recombinations that just happen from time to time in nature and there's really very little we can do about it.

I certainly get the appeal of believing the former, but I feel pretty confident that it's really the latter. Viruses mutate and spread all the time. Just not usually with this sort of morbidity and mortality. And if you choose to believe the latter scenario, where do you think SARS came from? How about Ebola? HIV? Are those all from labs as well?
Old 05-24-21, 03:47 PM
  #12711  
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Re: COVID-19 POLITICAL Thread

Originally Posted by sracer View Post
It seems to me that if covid-19 was the result of gain of function research then it isn't the great mysterious virus that they claimed it to be. The scientists knew what they did to tweak things and have a better understanding of which methods of transmissibility are more effective than others. If they have to keep the origin a secret then they can't just come out with details about how to effectively prevent the spread without revealing the origin.
The only mystery of it was what effects it had on people infected with it. And they were pretty clear on transmissibility for the last 13 months.

The only confusion on masks was how to get people to wear them while knowing non-N95 only protect you from transmitting it, not getting it (though does slow it down). They were also pretty good at covering the fact that you had to actually get a decent amount of the virus before it infected you (which is where the 15 minutes guideline later came into play.)

Even if they had absolute proof it was a lab modified coronavirus with the ability to infect humans - that isn't going to give you a full blown playbook on how to prevent its spread outside of everyone wearing space suits at every turn (or at least N95s). As such, imo, people refusing to wear a mask with the reasoning that "it's a virus that came from a lab" didn't make a whole lot of sense. (Though to be fair, they likely wouldn't have regardless.)


Last edited by RichC2; 05-24-21 at 04:32 PM.
Old 05-24-21, 04:02 PM
  #12712  
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Re: COVID-19 POLITICAL Thread

Originally Posted by sracer View Post
If they have to keep the origin a secret then they can't just come out with details about how to effectively prevent the spread without revealing the origin.
The problem was with Trump blaming China for spreading the virus or allowing it to spread, as if if the virus came from them, he had no responsibility for defending the US from it. Many countries in Asia, Vietnam and Taiwan for example, don't like or trust the government of China, and they still went all out to fight the virus because it's dangerous no matter where it came from.

Originally Posted by sracer View Post
Last year Dr. Fauci WAS convinced it developed naturally. It would be helpful to know what new information he received that caused him to change his opinion.
One problem is that it's unlikely that the virus can jump directly from bat to human, and we have not found that intermediate species after a year. That makes more people re-evaluate and think that maybe it did jump directly or it was cooked up in a lab. People are looking for clues but no one knows for sure.
Old 05-24-21, 04:04 PM
  #12713  
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Re: COVID-19 POLITICAL Thread

Originally Posted by Psi View Post
One problem is that it's unlikely that the virus can jump directly from bat to human, and we have not found that intermediate species after a year. That makes more people think that maybe it jumped directly or it was cooked up in a lab. People are looking for clues but no one knows for sure.
South Park already figured that out for us. It was a pangolin that seduced Randy Marsh during his drug bender with Mikey Mouse. Clearly....



Old 05-24-21, 04:13 PM
  #12714  
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Re: COVID-19 POLITICAL Thread

I was finally able to order some Pfizer vaccines to my office this morning. They only want you to take as much as you need for the next two weeks. My staff asked for 100 doses, which seems kinda low, but we shall see. Hoping to get it in the office by Wednesday. Then I can start hearing why my patients "don't need it" or how the parents "need to do more research".

Also on the dining room front, I ran into one of my patent mothers who is manager of an Einstein Bros Bagel here in town this morning. I asked her about why the dining area is still closed and she straight up told me it has nothing to do with Covid restrictions, but is because with the current unemployment benefits, they don't have enough staff to open it up. Which is pretty much what I figured. She says that until the unemployment benefits get back to how they were pre-pandemic, these restaurants will keep running on a skeleton crew with no in-store dining.
Old 05-24-21, 04:24 PM
  #12715  
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Re: COVID-19 POLITICAL Thread

Originally Posted by Decker View Post
I was finally able to order some Pfizer vaccines to my office this morning. They only want you to take as much as you need for the next two weeks. My staff asked for 100 doses, which seems kinda low, but we shall see. Hoping to get it in the office by Wednesday. Then I can start hearing why my patients "don't need it" or how the parents "need to do more research".
I hope you run out Kids seem to accept vaccination better than adults, at least during the first 1+ week.


Old 05-24-21, 04:34 PM
  #12716  
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Re: COVID-19 POLITICAL Thread

Old 05-24-21, 04:48 PM
  #12717  
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Re: COVID-19 POLITICAL Thread

Originally Posted by Psi View Post
I hope you run out Kids seem to accept vaccination better than adults, at least during the first 1+ week.


https://twitter.com/bhrenton/status/...350371845?s=21
Kids by and large believe in that science stuff they learn in school. They haven't been fed anti-science propaganda listening to AM radio talk shows for decades.
Old 05-24-21, 04:51 PM
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Re: COVID-19 POLITICAL Thread

Originally Posted by cungar View Post
Kids by and large believe in that science stuff they learn in school. They haven't been fed anti-science propaganda listening to AM radio talk shows for decades.
It's still the parents making the call and giving the consent.
I'll keep you guys posted on how often we are actually giving the shot as opposed to "No thanks".
I expect the vaccine to be mandatory for middle and high schoolers before the 2022 school year, but we shall see...
Old 05-24-21, 05:11 PM
  #12719  
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Re: COVID-19 POLITICAL Thread

Originally Posted by Psi View Post
The problem was with Trump blaming China for spreading the virus or allowing it to spread, as if if the virus came from them, he had no responsibility for defending the US from it. Many countries in Asia, Vietnam and Taiwan for example, don't like or trust the government of China, and they still went all out to fight the virus because it's dangerous no matter where it came from.
Yes, Trump's motivation in wanting to blame China was pretty transparent.

If we're going to get to the truth of things, we're going to have to break out of this Trump-contrarian mindset and focus on the truth wherever that leads. We can't continue to dismiss things like the possibility that covid-19 accidentally escaped from the Wuhan lab simply because Trump claimed it. We're approaching a point of, "we can't pursue the truth if it gives Trump a reason to feel vindicated."

If that mindset keeps hold, then even after he is out of office he continues to have control over the narrative.


Originally Posted by Psi View Post
One problem is that it's unlikely that the virus can jump directly from bat to human, and we have not found that intermediate species after a year. That makes more people re-evaluate and think that maybe it did jump directly or it was cooked up in a lab. People are looking for clues but no one knows for sure.
Well... we don't know that "no one knows for sure". If it accidentally escaped from a lab, then the lab technicians know... because they know if they had a specimen.

Fauci has changed his opinion from, the escaped from a lab theory was not plausible to, it should be investigated. He hasn't indicated why he feels differently now.

Old 05-24-21, 05:23 PM
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Re: COVID-19 POLITICAL Thread

I disregard the "escaped from a lab" theory mostly because it sounds like a Michael Crichton book and the world just isn't a movie.
Old 05-24-21, 05:26 PM
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Re: COVID-19 POLITICAL Thread

Counterpoint :

Old 05-24-21, 05:28 PM
  #12722  
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Re: COVID-19 POLITICAL Thread

Originally Posted by Decker View Post
Counterpoint :
To clarify, it's easier to believe that we're all idiots over COVID-19 is man-made.
Old 05-24-21, 07:07 PM
  #12723  
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Re: COVID-19 POLITICAL Thread

Originally Posted by sracer View Post
Yes, Trump's motivation in wanting to blame China was pretty transparent.

If we're going to get to the truth of things, we're going to have to break out of this Trump-contrarian mindset and focus on the truth wherever that leads. We can't continue to dismiss things like the possibility that covid-19 accidentally escaped from the Wuhan lab simply because Trump claimed it. We're approaching a point of, "we can't pursue the truth if it gives Trump a reason to feel vindicated."

If that mindset keeps hold, then even after he is out of office he continues to have control over the narrative.

Well... we don't know that "no one knows for sure". If it accidentally escaped from a lab, then the lab technicians know... because they know if they had a specimen.

Fauci has changed his opinion from, the escaped from a lab theory was not plausible to, it should be investigated. He hasn't indicated why he feels differently now.
I agree that just because Trump pushed the theory that the virus escaped from a lab in China doesn't make it not true. By the same token just because there was cover-up in China by the city and/or provincial and/or central government doesn't make it true either. A cover-up can happen in case of a wildlife source or a lab escape.

I see a lot of scientific interest in understanding where this virus came from. The Nicholas Wade paper I linked to above was a serious and compelling analysis. It changed many minds and triggered intense discussion, but all it means is that people are leaning more this way or that way. No one knows for sure, but that doesn't mean people have stopped asking or investigating.

I don't know what Fauci has said, and he is not the most important person on this topic.


Edited to add: I remember watching an exchange between Fauci and Rand Paul a few weeks ago where Paul said that the Wuhan lab conducted gain of function virus research and that NIH funded it. Fauci said they didn't. The Wade paper also talked about collaboration between some American researchers and the lab in that work. There is a lot of discussion but nothing conclusive has come out.

Last edited by Psi; 05-24-21 at 09:04 PM.
Old 05-25-21, 09:28 AM
  #12724  
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Re: COVID-19 POLITICAL Thread

Originally Posted by Draven View Post
I disregard the "escaped from a lab" theory mostly because it sounds like a Michael Crichton book and the world just isn't a movie.
Ah, doesn't sound like you believe in "life imitating art".
Old 05-25-21, 09:49 AM
  #12725  
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Re: COVID-19 POLITICAL Thread

Originally Posted by Coral View Post
It's one thing if someone doesn't believe vaccinations work or that covid is fake - but to reject money because someone else believs it and got vaccinated is staggering.
It's not like it's doing the Airbnb any harm or anything.

I don't fully agree with a vegan diet, but I wouldn't turn business away because of it. Their diet's not harming me in any way - so what do I care?

I bet I know who this Airbnb voted for.
Because certain political factions believe their rights lie fundamentally rooted in denying rights to others. Carry on.

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