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Boeing 737 Max 8 issues

Old 03-13-19, 02:16 PM
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Boeing 737 Max 8 issues

Trump, following the lead of the rest of the world has grounded the Boeing 737 Max 8 and 9 models due to safety concerns. The FAA has said they see no need to ground the planes at this time.

RollCall - Trump grounds all 737 Max 8 and Max 9 airliners

This is the right thing to do in my opinion due to some comments in this article I read:

CNN - Pilots complained about the 737 Max in a federal database

Seems as if the autopilot or a combination of automated systems would put the plane in a nose down attitude when the autopilot was engaged. That being said, if that caused the plane to lose altitude in the most recent crash, the pilots should have been aware of this and disengaged the autopilot and flown the plane manually.

It's a little troubling that the FAA and Trump are not on the same page. The FAA doesn't even have an official director. The guy at the helm now is the acting director. Things need to get back to regular order with all the appointments that the WH is supposed to be making.
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Old 03-13-19, 02:18 PM
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Re: Boeing 737 Max 8 issues

Interesting timing, considering the 1B cut to the NSF he just proposed would effect planes ability to navigate without crashing into each other.
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Old 03-13-19, 02:21 PM
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Re: Boeing 737 Max 8 issues

Quote from one pilot:

Flight manual is 'inadequate and almost criminally insufficient'
Boeing needs to fix this shit.

Canada was dragging their feet on grounding these planes as well. They finally did so today, they pretty well had no choice as airlines here had to keep cancelling international flights as countries one by one started to not allow them in their airspace.
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Old 03-13-19, 02:37 PM
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Re: Boeing 737 Max 8 issues

Here's an article from The Verge. It basically covers the same material as the CNN article, but in a bit more detail.

The Verge - Pilots complained about autopilot issues with Boeing jets involved in two deadly crashes

In one incident, an airline pilot reported that immediately after engaging the Max 8’s autopilot, the co-pilot shouted “DESCENDING,” followed by an audio cockpit warning, “DON’T SINK! DON’T SINK!”

“I immediately disconnected AP (Autopilot) (it WAS engaged as we got full horn etc.) and resumed climb,” the pilot writes in the report, which is available in a database compiled by NASA. “Now, I would generally assume it was my automation error, i.e., aircraft was trying to acquire a miss-commanded speed/no autothrottles, crossing restriction etc., but frankly neither of us could find an inappropriate setup error (not to say there wasn’t one).”
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Old 03-13-19, 03:24 PM
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Re: Boeing 737 Max 8 issues

This has been rumored since the first crash, but is gaining steam with the groundings worldwide.

https://airlinerwatch.com/lion-air-p...tch-to-airbus/

Lion Air plans to cancel the billion-dollar Boeing order and switch to Airbus

Jakarta - The distrust caused by the second Boeing 737 MAX 8 crash is spreading. More and more country to impose flight-ban for the aircraft due to safety concerns. After Australia today, British authority has also banned Boeing 737 MAX flights on its airspace.

Apart from the civil aviation authorities of the countries, the airline operators also to raise questions about the safety of Boeing's new generation single-aisle. Following the second MAX 8 crash, Indonesian airline Lion Air considers switching to Airbus, according to an insider.

Lion Air had blamed Boeing after its Flight 610 crashed into the Java Sea just after take off.

The Indonesian carrier has ten Boeing 737 MAX 8 in service and expects four more this year. However, the airline may not take over these jets, for the time being, said Lion Air CEO Daniel Putut.

Lion Air is Indonesia's largest airline and one of the largest customers of Boeing's revamped single-aisle jet. The airline has ordered more than 200 copies. The company is also the first airline to operate the longer version MAX 9.

According to an insider who is familiar with the matter, the operator is considering switching to the Airbus's new generation single-aisles (both A320neo and A321neo) for the expansion of its fleet.

The company did not want to comment on further fleet plans when asked by Bloomberg news agency. However, Lion Air co-founder Rusdi Kirana said in December that he was planning to withdraw the billion-dollar order.
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Old 03-13-19, 03:40 PM
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Re: Boeing 737 Max 8 issues

More blood on trump's hands.
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Old 03-13-19, 03:48 PM
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Re: Boeing 737 Max 8 issues

I heard somewhere that Boeing is the US's biggest exporter? If their business get's cut significantly by worldwide mistrust, I wonder if that could signal a recession in the US? Experts keep predicting a slowdown.
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Old 03-13-19, 05:29 PM
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Re: Boeing 737 Max 8 issues

I miss the simpler days when Autopilot was so much easier to turn on and off

NSFW:



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Old 03-13-19, 08:52 PM
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Re: Boeing 737 Max 8 issues

Originally Posted by VinVega View Post
I heard somewhere that Boeing is the US's biggest exporter? If their business get's cut significantly by worldwide mistrust, I wonder if that could signal a recession in the US? Experts keep predicting a slowdown.
Yeah, if this goes bad it could have an impact on the economy, Boeing is a big deal.
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Old 03-13-19, 09:12 PM
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Re: Boeing 737 Max 8 issues

Originally Posted by cultshock View Post
Yeah, if this goes bad it could have an impact on the economy, Boeing is a big deal.
Not sure how much, but at least the altruistic Europeans and Chinese moved swiftly, unlike the US, who had no reason for delay.
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Old 03-13-19, 10:21 PM
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Re: Boeing 737 Max 8 issues

Originally Posted by Pharoh View Post
Not sure how much, but at least the altruistic Europeans and Chinese moved swiftly, unlike the US, who had no reason for delay.
True, China wants to hurt the US because of the trade war and Europe wants Airbus to do better since the A380 failure. Still, grounding the planes is the safer way to go especially since Boeing knew there was an issue with the MCAS system.
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Old 03-14-19, 05:33 AM
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Re: Boeing 737 Max 8 issues

Originally Posted by Why So Blu? View Post
More blood on trump's hands.
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Old 03-14-19, 05:37 AM
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Re: Boeing 737 Max 8 issues

Originally Posted by VinVega View Post
Trump, following the lead of the rest of the world has grounded the Boeing 737 Max 8 and 9 models due to safety concerns. The FAA has said they see no need to ground the planes at this time.

RollCall - Trump grounds all 737 Max 8 and Max 9 airliners

This is the right thing to do in my opinion due to some comments in this article I read:

CNN - Pilots complained about the 737 Max in a federal database

Seems as if the autopilot or a combination of automated systems would put the plane in a nose down attitude when the autopilot was engaged. That being said, if that caused the plane to lose altitude in the most recent crash, the pilots should have been aware of this and disengaged the autopilot and flown the plane manually.

It's a little troubling that the FAA and Trump are not on the same page. The FAA doesn't even have an official director. The guy at the helm now is the acting director. Things need to get back to regular order with all the appointments that the WH is supposed to be making.
Black boxes have not been looked at yet.

2 crashes in 6 months.

Pilot error has not been ruled out.

Thousands of flights have been completed with no issues.

Kinda wondering if this was a worldwide domino knee-jerk reaction thanks to media blitzing and fear segments.

No crashes in the US where there are at least 60, it seems odd if it was a problem.

Also, I thought one of the crashes involved a lightning strike.
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Old 03-14-19, 08:03 AM
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Re: Boeing 737 Max 8 issues

Originally Posted by Why So Blu? View Post
More blood on trump's hands.


Considering that Boeing is in Chicago, I'm surprised these planes have only killed 346. Also, Obama.
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Old 03-14-19, 10:03 AM
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Re: Boeing 737 Max 8 issues

Originally Posted by DVD Polizei View Post
Black boxes have not been looked at yet.

2 crashes in 6 months.

Pilot error has not been ruled out.

Thousands of flights have been completed with no issues.

Kinda wondering if this was a worldwide domino knee-jerk reaction thanks to media blitzing and fear segments.

No crashes in the US where there are at least 60, it seems odd if it was a problem.

Also, I thought one of the crashes involved a lightning strike.
I actually very much agree with you. But I'm also completely biased
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Old 03-14-19, 10:19 AM
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Re: Boeing 737 Max 8 issues

Originally Posted by VinVega View Post
Trump, following the lead of the rest of the world has grounded the Boeing 737 Max 8 and 9 models due to safety concerns. The FAA has said they see no need to ground the planes at this time.
He became President of the United States in that moment, period.
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Old 03-14-19, 10:25 AM
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Re: Boeing 737 Max 8 issues

I think this might be the one thing where 90% of Americans agreed with Trump
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Old 03-14-19, 10:26 AM
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Re: Boeing 737 Max 8 issues

Originally Posted by nando820 View Post
I think this might be the one thing where 90% of Americans agreed with Trump
If only he acted like a leader and did it before almost every other country in the world involved....
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Old 03-14-19, 10:34 AM
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Re: Boeing 737 Max 8 issues

Originally Posted by DVD Polizei View Post
Black boxes have not been looked at yet.

2 crashes in 6 months.

Pilot error has not been ruled out.

Thousands of flights have been completed with no issues.

Kinda wondering if this was a worldwide domino knee-jerk reaction thanks to media blitzing and fear segments.

No crashes in the US where there are at least 60, it seems odd if it was a problem.

Also, I thought one of the crashes involved a lightning strike.
I had read that several US pilots had logged complaints to the FAA about this aircraft prior to the crashes (or at least the second one). I don't know if that is a disproportionate number compared to other airplanes but I was under the impression that it was concerning and should have been a red flag to them.


For the record, I have issues with Trump for a million different things, but not really with this one.
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Old 03-14-19, 11:14 AM
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Re: Boeing 737 Max 8 issues

It was agreed the FAA would make the statement and release it, then Trump went ahead and did it first, because he wins!
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Old 03-14-19, 04:03 PM
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Re: Boeing 737 Max 8 issues

Originally Posted by Decker View Post
I had read that several US pilots had logged complaints to the FAA about this aircraft prior to the crashes (or at least the second one). I don't know if that is a disproportionate number compared to other airplanes but I was under the impression that it was concerning and should have been a red flag to them.
The number of complaints about the MCAS system acting squirrely and putting the plane's nose down on takeoff was minimal in the overall number of pilot reports to the FAA, but there was obviously a flaw with the system big enough that Boeing wrote software to try to fix it. And Boeing was hoping to get the fix in before anything else bad happened since the Lion Air crash in Oct, but they didn't and got burned. Their reputation and the FAA's is in pretty bad shape right now. I think investigations will show that Boeing was not thinking safety first, but dollars first (there are over 3000 orders for the Max 8/9 model in the pipeline). A safety first mentality would have led to grounding the fleet until the software fix was tested and implemented. The fact the the "regulator" of Boeing (the FAA) didn't force Boeing to ground the planes back in Nov or Dec, will show the FAA lacking as well I believe.
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Old 03-19-19, 05:03 PM
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Re: Boeing 737 Max 8 issues

Originally Posted by BDB View Post
It was agreed the FAA would make the statement and release it, then Trump went ahead and did it first, because he wins!
You said it better than I could!

#MaxTrump
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Old 03-19-19, 05:10 PM
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Re: Boeing 737 Max 8 issues

Originally Posted by VinVega View Post
The number of complaints about the MCAS system acting squirrely and putting the plane's nose down on takeoff was minimal in the overall number of pilot reports to the FAA, but there was obviously a flaw with the system big enough that Boeing wrote software to try to fix it. And Boeing was hoping to get the fix in before anything else bad happened since the Lion Air crash in Oct, but they didn't and got burned. Their reputation and the FAA's is in pretty bad shape right now. I think investigations will show that Boeing was not thinking safety first, but dollars first (there are over 3000 orders for the Max 8/9 model in the pipeline). A safety first mentality would have led to grounding the fleet until the software fix was tested and implemented. The fact the the "regulator" of Boeing (the FAA) didn't force Boeing to ground the planes back in Nov or Dec, will show the FAA lacking as well I believe.
Is this truly a "fix" or is it just something Boeing did to placate the mass swarms of knee-jerky. And yes, of course it's $$$ first. I don't think they create their planes in terms of safety, but in terms of, "it will fly X miles without X number of problems" or something similar.

Speaking of safety, do airlines themselves pack their planes for safety? NOPE. It was reported not too long ago (mid-Feb this year) that exposed Southwest Airlines (and others), fudging numbers on the baggage weights, which resulted in planes taking off with several thousands of pounds overweight, which directly affects the pilots' number crunching. The FAA even had to investigate. So far, not much being done. I guess we'll have to wait until more planes crash for the FAA to actually do anything, but who knows, maybe Boeing will be blamed for those crashes, too.

Overall, way too few issues for this to be directly tied to the 2 crashed, imo. Tragedies for sure, but we need the blindfolds off, and the investigations to be thorough, not politically-jaded.
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Old 03-21-19, 03:29 PM
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Re: Boeing 737 Max 8 issues

Europe and Canada Just Signaled They Don't Trust the FAA's Investigation of the Boeing 737 MAX

The decision by Europe and Canada to break with U.S. air-safety regulators over the safety of the Boeing 737 Max is likely to delay the resumption of flights after two of the jets crashed.

The Europeans and Canadians vow to conduct their own reviews of Boeing’s changes to a key flight-control system, not to simply take the Federal Aviation Administration’s word that the alterations are safe. Those reviews scramble an ambitious schedule set by Boeing and could undercut the FAA’s reputation around the world.

Boeing hopes by Monday to finish an update to software that can automatically point the nose of the plane sharply downward in some circumstances to avoid an aerodynamic stall, according to two people briefed on FAA presentations to congressional committees.

The FAA expects to certify Boeing’s modifications and plans for pilot training in April or May, one of the people said. Both spoke on the condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to speak about the briefings.

But there are clear doubts about meeting that timetable. Air Canada plans to remove the Boeing 737 Max from its schedule at least through July 1 and suspend some routes that it flew with the plane before it was grounded around the world last week.

American Airlines, Southwest Airlines and United Airlines, which are slightly less dependent on the Max than Air Canada, are juggling their fleets to fill in for grounded planes, but have still canceled some flights.

By international agreement, planes must be certified in the country where they are built. Regulators around the world have almost always accepted that country’s decision.

As a result, European airlines have flown Boeing jets with little independent review by the European Aviation Safety Agency, and U.S. airlines operate Airbus jets without a separate, lengthy certification process by the FAA.

That practice is being frayed, however, in the face of growing questions about the FAA’s certification of the Max. Critics question whether the agency relied too much on Boeing to vouch for critical safety matters and whether it understood the significance of a new automated flight-control system on the Max.

The FAA let the Boeing Max keep flying after preliminary findings from the Oct. 29 crash of a Lion Air Max 8 in Indonesia pointed to flight-control problems linked to the failure of a sensor. Boeing went to work on upgrading the software to, among other things, rely on more than one sensor and limit the system’s power to point the plane’s nose down without direction from the pilots.

The FAA’s assurance was good enough for the rest of the world until an Ethiopian Airlines Max 8 crashed. Satellite data suggests both planes had similar, erratic flight paths before crashing minutes after takeoff.

Patrick Ky, the executive director of the European regulator, said his agency will look “very deeply, very closely” at the changes Boeing and the FAA suggest to fix the plane.

“I can guarantee to you that on our side we will not allow the aircraft to fly if we have not found acceptable answers to all our questions, whatever the FAA does,” he said.

The message was the same from Canada’s Transport minister, Marc Garneau.

“When that software change is ready, which is a number of weeks, we will in Canada — even if it is certified by the FAA — we will do our own certification,” he said.
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Old 03-21-19, 08:14 PM
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Re: Boeing 737 Max 8 issues

I don't blame Europe or Canada for being skeptical. Their reactions are not surprising. The congressional investigations should be fun.
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