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View Poll Results: What do you think of Denmark's long term welfare policy for able bodied people?
I'm strongly in favor of it.
7
77.78%
I'm somewhat in favor of it.
0
0%
I'm not sure / mixed opinion / no opinion.
0
0%
I'm somewhat against it.
0
0%
I'm strongly against it.
2
22.22%
Voters: 9. You may not vote on this poll

Danes Rethink a Welfare State Ample to a Fault

Old 01-29-19, 02:31 AM
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Danes Rethink a Welfare State Ample to a Fault

This article is from six years ago, but I just found out about it.

The article talks about able-bodied people in Denmark who have been on welfare for a very long time.

It says these able bodied adults get more money from welfare than what many full time workers get from their jobs.

What do you think of Denmark's long term welfare policy for able bodied people?


https://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/21/w...ault.html?_r=0

Danes Rethink a Welfare State Ample to a Fault

April 20, 2013

COPENHAGEN — It began as a stunt intended to prove that hardship and poverty still existed in this small, wealthy country, but it backfired badly. Visit a single mother of two on welfare, a liberal member of Parliament goaded a skeptical political opponent, see for yourself how hard it is.

It turned out, however, that life on welfare was not so hard. The 36-year-old single mother, given the pseudonym “Carina” in the news media, had more money to spend than many of the country’s full-time workers. All told, she was getting about $2,700 a month, and she had been on welfare since she was 16.


In past years, Danes might have shrugged off the case, finding Carina more pitiable than anything else. But even before her story was in the headlines 16 months ago, they were deeply engaged in a debate about whether their beloved welfare state, perhaps Europe’s most generous, had become too rich, undermining the country’s work ethic. Carina helped tip the scales.

With little fuss or political protest — or notice abroad — Denmark has been at work overhauling entitlements, trying to prod Danes into working more or longer or both. While much of southern Europe has been racked by strikes and protests as its creditors force austerity measures, Denmark still has a coveted AAA bond rating.

But Denmark’s long-term outlook is troubling. The population is aging, and in many regions of the country people without jobs now outnumber those with them.

Some of that is a result of a depressed economy. But many experts say a more basic problem is the proportion of Danes who are not participating in the work force at all — be they dawdling university students, young pensioners or welfare recipients like Carina who lean on hefty government support.

“Before the crisis there was a sense that there was always going to be more and more,” Bjarke Moller, the editor in chief of publications for Mandag Morgen, a research group in Copenhagen. “But that is not true anymore. There are a lot of pressures on us right now. We need to be an agile society to survive.”

The Danish model of government is close to a religion here, and it has produced a population that regularly claims to be among the happiest in the world. Even the country’s conservative politicians are not suggesting getting rid of it.

Denmark has among the highest marginal income-tax rates in the world, with the top bracket of 56.5 percent kicking in on incomes of more than about $80,000. But in exchange, the Danes get a cradle-to-grave safety net that includes free health care, a free university education and hefty payouts to even the richest citizens.

Parents in all income brackets, for instance, get quarterly checks from the government to help defray child-care costs. The elderly get free maid service if they need it, even if they are wealthy.

But few experts here believe that Denmark can long afford the current perks. So Denmark is retooling itself, tinkering with corporate tax rates, considering new public sector investments and, for the long term, trying to wean more people — the young and the old — off government benefits.

“In the past, people never asked for help unless they needed it,” said Karen Haekkerup, the minister of social affairs and integration, who has been outspoken on the subject. “My grandmother was offered a pension and she was offended. She did not need it.

“But now people do not have that mentality. They think of these benefits as their rights. The rights have just expanded and expanded. And it has brought us a good quality of life. But now we need to go back to the rights and the duties. We all have to contribute.”

In 2012, a little over 2.6 million people between the ages of 15 and 64 were working in Denmark, 47 percent of the total population and 73 percent of the 15- to 64-year-olds.

While only about 65 percent of working age adults are employed in the United States, comparisons are misleading, since many Danes work short hours and all enjoy perks like long vacations and lengthy paid maternity leaves, not to speak of a de facto minimum wage approaching $20 an hour. Danes would rank much lower in terms of hours worked per year.

In addition, the work force has far more older people to support. About 18 percent of Denmark’s population is over 65, compared with 13 percent in the United States.

One study, by the municipal policy research group Kora, recently found that only 3 of Denmark’s 98 municipalities will have a majority of residents working in 2013. This is a significant reduction from 2009, when 59 municipalities could boast that a majority of residents had jobs. (Everyone, including children, was counted in the comparison.)

Joachim B. Olsen, the skeptical politician from the Liberal Alliance party who visited Carina 16 months ago in her pleasant Copenhagen apartment, is particularly alarmed. He says Sweden, which is already considered generous, has far fewer citizens living on government benefits. If Denmark followed Sweden’s example, it would have about 250,000 fewer people living on benefits of various sorts.

“The welfare state here has spiraled out of control,” Mr. Olsen said. “It has done a lot of good, but we have been unwilling to talk about the negative side. For a very long time it has been taboo to talk about the Carinas.”

Already the government has reduced various early-retirement plans. The unemployed used to be able to collect benefits for up to four years. Now it is two.

Students are next up for cutbacks, most intended to get them in the work force faster. Currently, students are entitled to six years of stipends, about $990 a month, to complete a five-year degree which, of course, is free. Many of them take even longer to finish, taking breaks to travel and for internships before and during their studies.

In trying to reduce the welfare rolls, the government is concentrating on making sure that people like Carina do not exist in the future. It is proposing cuts to welfare grants for those under 30 and stricter reviews to make sure that such recipients are steered into jobs or educational programs before they get comfortable on government benefits.

Officials have also begun to question the large number of people who are receiving lifetime disability checks. About 240,000 people — roughly 9 percent of the potential work force — have lifetime disability status; about 33,500 of them are under 40. The government has proposed ending that status for those under 40, unless they have a mental or physical condition that is so severe that it keeps them from working.

Instead of offering disability, the government intends to assign individuals to “rehabilitation teams” to come up with one- to five-year plans that could include counseling, social-skills training and education as well as a state-subsidized job, at least in the beginning. The idea is to have them working at least part time, or studying.

It remains possible that the cost-cutting push will hurt the left-wing coalition that leads the government. By and large, though, the changes have passed easily in Parliament and been happily endorsed by conservatives like Mr. Olsen, who does his best to keep his meeting with Carina in the headlines.

Carina was not the only welfare recipient to fuel the sense that Denmark’s system has somehow gotten out of kilter. Robert Nielsen, 45, made headlines last September when he was interviewed on television, admitting that he had basically been on welfare since 2001.

Mr. Nielsen said he was able-bodied but had no intention of taking a demeaning job, like working at a fast-food restaurant. He made do quite well on welfare, he said.
He even owns his own co-op apartment.

Unlike Carina, who will no longer give interviews, Mr. Nielsen, called “Lazy Robert” by the news media, seems to be enjoying the attention. He says that he is greeted warmly on the street all the time. “Luckily, I am born and live in Denmark, where the government is willing to support my life,” he said.

Some Danes say the existence of people like Carina and Mr. Nielsen comes as no surprise. Lene Malmberg, who lives in Odsherred and works part time as a secretary despite a serious brain injury that has affected her short-term memory, said the Carina story was not news to her. At one point, she said, before her accident when she worked full time, her sister was receiving benefits and getting more money than she was.

“The system is wrong somehow, I agree,” she said. “I wanted to work. But she was a little bit: ‘Why work?’ ”

My answer:

Spoiler:

I'm strongly against it.

Last edited by grundle; 01-29-19 at 02:36 AM.
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Old 01-29-19, 10:48 AM
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Re: Danes Rethink a Welfare State Ample to a Fault

That’s what a “guaranteed living wage” will get you.

I don’t know how that single mother gets by on $2,700 a month. There must be other perks like free housing or something.
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Old 01-29-19, 11:47 AM
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Re: Danes Rethink a Welfare State Ample to a Fault

Originally Posted by Mabuse View Post
That’s what a “guaranteed living wage” will get you.

I don’t know how that single mother gets by on $2,700 a month. There must be other perks like free housing or something.
No....the article posted is about people getting income for no work. “Most” guaranteed living wage is about raising the minimum wage of full time WORKERS so that it is enough to actually live on.
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Old 01-29-19, 12:31 PM
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Re: Danes Rethink a Welfare State Ample to a Fault

I think posting a six year old article full of predictions and forecasts without doing any work to see what has changed and what is the current status quo is a lazy and stupid thing to do.
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Old 01-29-19, 12:36 PM
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Re: Danes Rethink a Welfare State Ample to a Fault

I don't think we Americans have any room to judge other countries on the effectiveness of their socio-economic system when people in our own country are working themselves to death with 3 or 4 jobs and still have to post gofundme's for medical procedures while hearing daily about the evils of socialism.
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Old 01-29-19, 12:39 PM
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Re: Danes Rethink a Welfare State Ample to a Fault

Damn Danes
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Old 01-29-19, 12:40 PM
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Re: Danes Rethink a Welfare State Ample to a Fault

Originally Posted by cungar View Post
Damn Danes
there is nothing like a Dane .... Nothing in the world.
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Old 01-29-19, 12:47 PM
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Re: Danes Rethink a Welfare State Ample to a Fault

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Old 01-29-19, 02:13 PM
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Re: Danes Rethink a Welfare State Ample to a Fault

Originally Posted by JasonF View Post
I think posting a six year old article full of predictions and forecasts without doing any work to see what has changed and what is the current status quo is a lazy and stupid thing to do.
Yeah this, come on grundle!

Originally Posted by PatD View Post
I don't think we Americans have any room to judge other countries on the effectiveness of their socio-economic system when people in our own country are working themselves to death with 3 or 4 jobs and still have to post gofundme's for medical procedures while hearing daily about the evils of socialism.


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Old 01-29-19, 02:27 PM
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Re: Danes Rethink a Welfare State Ample to a Fault

I wonder why this wasn't bolded

The Danish model of government is close to a religion here, and it has produced a population that regularly claims to be among the happiest in the world. Even the country’s conservative politicians are not suggesting getting rid of it.
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Old 01-29-19, 02:31 PM
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Re: Danes Rethink a Welfare State Ample to a Fault

Originally Posted by PatD View Post
I don't think we Americans have any room to judge other countries on the effectiveness of their socio-economic system when people in our own country are working themselves to death with 3 or 4 jobs and still have to post gofundme's for medical procedures while hearing daily about the evils of socialism.
Maybe we should also stop comparing crime and other factors from other countries to our own as well.

As to the last part of your sentence...I thought ACA was so great. It's been about 8 years since it started.
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Old 01-29-19, 02:37 PM
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Re: Danes Rethink a Welfare State Ample to a Fault

Originally Posted by cungar View Post
Damn Danes

Great danes are sick of these
Modern welfare policies
Travel the North and the Baltic seas
Ev'rybody's goin' on welfare
SOME OF THEM WANT TO USE IT
SOME OF THEM WANT TO GET MONEY FOR FREE
SOME OF THEM WANT TO ABUSE IT
SOME OF THEM WANT TO BE ABUSED


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Old 01-29-19, 02:38 PM
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Re: Danes Rethink a Welfare State Ample to a Fault

Mabuse, I think you've confused the terms minimum wage, living wage, and guaranteed basic income.
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Old 01-29-19, 02:42 PM
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Re: Danes Rethink a Welfare State Ample to a Fault

I think if this was a serious attempt at a pole, the originator wouldn't introduce his own bias into the thread title.
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Old 01-29-19, 03:14 PM
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Re: Danes Rethink a Welfare State Ample to a Fault

Originally Posted by JasonX View Post
I think if this was a serious attempt at a pole, the originator wouldn't introduce his own bias into the thread title.

Do you mean like a 'sexual pole' or someone from Poland?
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Old 01-29-19, 05:17 PM
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Re: Danes Rethink a Welfare State Ample to a Fault

Originally Posted by AGuyNamedMike View Post
Mabuse, I think you've confused the terms minimum wage, living wage, and guaranteed basic income.
Yeah, those are all different things.

Originally Posted by Kurt D View Post
Do you mean like a 'sexual pole' or someone from Poland?
Both.

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Old 01-29-19, 06:49 PM
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Re: Danes Rethink a Welfare State Ample to a Fault

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Old 01-29-19, 06:51 PM
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Re: Danes Rethink a Welfare State Ample to a Fault

Originally Posted by DVD Polizei View Post
Maybe we should also stop comparing crime and other factors from other countries to our own as well.

As to the last part of your sentence...I thought ACA was so great. It's been about 8 years since it started.
The ACA was an improvement. A vast improvement and working well. Till of course Trump fucked it up and now. Thank God he had that “Replacement” ready to go that would be so much better and so “easy”.

But the messing around is over. It’s time to go Single Payer. I hope more Democrates come out for it and I’ll vote/pull for those that do.
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Old 01-29-19, 07:00 PM
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Re: Danes Rethink a Welfare State Ample to a Fault

Originally Posted by JasonX View Post
I think if this was a serious attempt at a pole, the originator wouldn't introduce his own bias into the thread title.

The title that I gave this thread is a copy and paste of the title of the New York Times article that I posted.

And that is exactly what the mods here have asked me to to whenever I start a thread.

Please explain why you think I put my own bias into the thread title.

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Old 01-29-19, 07:21 PM
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Re: Danes Rethink a Welfare State Ample to a Fault

Originally Posted by PatD View Post
I don't think we Americans have any room to judge other countries on the effectiveness of their socio-economic system when people in our own country are working themselves to death with 3 or 4 jobs and still have to post gofundme's for medical procedures while hearing daily about the evils of socialism.
Originally Posted by DVD Polizei View Post
Maybe we should also stop comparing crime and other factors from other countries to our own as well.

As to the last part of your sentence...I thought ACA was so great. It's been about 8 years since it started.


Republicans and Libertarians criticized Obamacare before it was passed.

Democrats waited until after Obamacare was passed to criticize it.

Here are some Democrats' criticisms of Obamacare. This is my own writing, with links to sources. Spoilerized for size:

Spoiler:
Democrats who voted for Obamacare later complained that its medical device tax would hurt job creation in their own districts




In response to the medical device tax that is part of Obamacare, some medical device manufacturers have announced plans to layoff employees, including Welch Allyn (275 planned layoffs), Stryker (1,170 planned layoffs), and Medtronic (1,000 planned layoffs).In December 2012, Al Franken, Elizabeth Warren, John Kerry, and 15 other Democrats who supported the passage of Obamacare wrote a letter to Harry Reid, asking him to delay the tax on medical devices, claiming that the tax would hurt job creation in their own districts.






Democratswho voted for Obamacare wanted an exemption for themselves and their staff after it was passed





In 2010, Obamacare was passed by the House and Senate, and signed by President Obama.Three years later, members of Congress and their staff complained that Obamacare was going to cost them a lot of money, and said that this would likely cause a brain drain among their staff. In response to this, Obama made changes to Obamacare so that these things would not happen. However, Obama’s actions were illegal, because he made these changes without Congress voting on them first.The New York Times wrote of this:the language of the health care law requires Congressional employees to obtain health insurance through an exchange created by the law, but other parts of the federal legal code restrict the ability of the federal government to pay the usual employer share for group insurance programs approved by the Office of Personnel Management.A straightforward reading of the law thus means that Congressional staff members, starting in January 2014, will have to obtain insurance through the Affordable Care Act but pay for it on their own without the normal contribution from their employer — Congress. This would be a multi-thousand-dollar income hit for those affected… many… would potentially feel the pain, giving rise to concerns over a potential brain drain of Congressional staff members finding other employment.the federal personnel office initially ruled that Congressional staff members would not be eligible for the subsidies, and then changed this decision under pressure from the White House…






An entire state that supported Obamacare asked for an exemption





The people of Massachusetts were huge supporters of Obamacare when it was passed, and they voted for Obama in both elections. But after Obamacare was passed, they asked for an exemption from it.In August 2013, Obama gave an Obamacare waiver to Massachusetts.This waiver was illegal for two reasons. First, the waiver was not approved by the U.S. Congress. Second, the U.S. Constitution requires that the federal government treat all states the same





.
Obama waited until after the 2012 election to release unpopular Obamacare rules





Obama himself is so much against Obamacare that he waited until after the 2012 election to release some of its rules.In April 2013, the New York Times reported:even fervent supporters of the law admit that things are going worse than expected.the Obama administration didn’t want to release unpopular rules before the election.Everything is turning out to be more complicated than originally envisioned.A law that was very confusing has become mind-boggling… Americans are just going to be overwhelmed and befuddled. Many are just going to stay away, even if they are eligible for benefits.





Obamacare pushed millions of working people “into a regulatory health coverage no man’s land”





In February 2013, U.S. Senator Ron Wyden (Democrat-Oregon) said:We’ve got millions of people — working-class, middle-class people — who are going to be pushed into a regulatory health coverage no man’s land. They are unable to afford the family coverage through their employer and ineligible for the subsidy that could be used by dependents on the exchange.




It’s “not fair” to force federal lawmakers and their aides to participate in the same health care reform as everyone else






In June 2013, U.S. Congressman John Larson (Democrat-Connecticut) said that it is “not fair” to force federal lawmakers and their aides to participate in the same health care reform as everyone else.




100% of Senate Democrats up for reelection planned to support a delay in Obamacare’s individual mandate




On October 23, 2013, CNN’s Dana Bash
:new: senior dem source tells me to expect every sen dem running in 2014 to back @JeanneShaheen proposal to delay #ACA enrollment deadline”





Jared Polis opposed delaying Obamacare’s individual mandate for the entire country, but favorsed such a delay for his own district





U.S. Congressional representative Jared Polis (Democrat-Colorado) voted against delaying Obamacare’s individual mandate for the entire country, but later requested such a delay for his own district.When Polis requested a special delay for his own district, he said:We will be encouraging a waiver. It will be difficult for Summit County residents to become insured. For the vast majority, it’s too high a price to pay.”




Harry Reid, Barbara Boxer, and several other Democratic Senators who voted for Obamacare, have exempted their own staff from Obamacare





In December 2013, Yahoo News reported:Harry Reid exempts some of his Senate staff from Obamacare exchangesOne of the biggest public supporters of the Affordable Care Act has reportedly decided that some of his staff should be exempted from the new law.CNN reports that Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid is the only top congressional leader to exempt some of his staff from having to buy insurance through the Affordable Care Act exchanges.Yahoo News has reached out to the offices of all 100 U.S. senators to see if any other members have exempted committee staff from the federal exchange. So far, the offices of 42 senators have responded to our inquiry, with 37 saying that the senator and their entire staff will switch over to the exchanges in January.The offices of Ron Wyden, Tim Johnson, Barbara Boxer, Patty Murray and Thomas Carper, all Democrats, said they were exempting some of their staff. Reid, a Democrat from Nevada, has not responded.




Democratic aides who supported the passage of Obamacare said their new Obamacare premiums were “simply unacceptable”





In December 2013, Politico reported:Older Hill aides shocked by Obamacare pricesVeteran House Democratic aides are sick over the insurance prices they’ll pay under Obamacare, and they’re scrambling to find a cure.In a shock to the system, the older staff in my office (folks over 59) have now found out their personal health insurance costs (even with the government contribution) have gone up 3-4 times what they were paying before,” Minh Ta, chief of staff to Rep. Gwen Moore (D-Wis.), wrote to fellow Democratic chiefs of staff in an email message obtained by POLITICO. “Simply unacceptable.”In the email, Ta noted that older congressional staffs may leave their jobs because of the change to their health insurance.




In New York City, thousands of Obama voting, well educated, upper class professionals complained about losing their insurance because of Obamacare




In December 2013, the New York Times reported:With Affordable Care Act, Canceled Policies for New York ProfessionalsMany in New York’s professional and cultural elite have long supported President Obama’s health care plan. But now, to their surprise, thousands of writers, opera singers, music teachers, photographers, doctors, lawyers and others are learning that their health insurance plans are being canceled and they may have to pay more to get comparable coverage, if they can find it.I couldn’t sleep because of it,” said Barbara Meinwald, a solo practitioner lawyer in Manhattan.Ms. Meinwald, 61, has been paying $10,000 a year for her insurance through the New York City Bar. A broker told her that a new temporary plan with fewer doctors would cost $5,000 more, after factoring in the cost of her medications.Roy Lyons, managing director of Marsh U.S. Consumer, an insurance brokerage, said he had heard complaints from physicians, lawyers, pharmacists and optometrists.Among those affected are members of the Authors Guild; the Advertising Photographers of America; the Suzuki Association of the Americas, a music teachers organization; the Society of Children’s Book Writers and Illustrators; the New York City Bar Association; and the New York County Medical Society.It is not lost on many of the professionals that they are exactly the sort of people — liberal, concerned with social justice — who supported the Obama health plan in the first place. Ms. Meinwald, the lawyer, said she was a lifelong Democrat who still supported better health care for all, but had she known what was in store for her, she would have voted for Mitt Romney.It is an uncomfortable position for many members of the creative classes to be in.We are the Obama people,” said Camille Sweeney, a New York writer and member of the Authors Guild. Her insurance is being canceled, and she is dismayed that neither her pediatrician nor her general practitioner appears to be on the exchange plans. What to do has become a hot topic on Facebook and at dinner parties frequented by her fellow writers and artists.I’m for it,” she said. “But what is the reality of it?”





Six Democratic Senators who voted for Obamacare complained that it was causing voters in their districts to lose insurance






In December 2013, six Democratic Senators who had voted for Obamacare wrote a letter to Health and Human Services Secretary Kathleen Sebelius, complaining that Obamacare was causing voters in their districts to lose insurance.




AmeriCorps “volunteers” supported Obamacare but wanted an exemption for themselves




AmeriCorps is a federal agency that pays so-called “volunteers” to do “charity” work.In December 2013, it was reported that the insurance that AmeriCorps provided to its “volunteers” did not meet Obamacare’s minimum standards, and that, as a result, these “volunteers” may have to pay the Obamacare tax penalty for not having insurance.Abby Grosslein, an AmeriCorps “volunteer” who lives in New Orleans, said:It would be nice if the government waived the penalty.”




Nancy Pelosi gave Obamacare waivers to 38 restaurants, nightclubs, and hotels in her own Congressional district



Although Congresswoman Nancy Pelosi (D-California) voted for Obamacare, in April 2011, she gave Obamacare waivers to 38 restaurants, nightclubs, and hotels in her own Congressional district.





In February 2015, Democrats who voted for Obamacare complained that people actually had to pay for it





In February 2015, Associated Press reported:Democrats seek relief from health law penaltiesSenior Democrats seek sign-up extension for people facing health law penaltiesThree senior House members told The Associated Press that they plan to strongly urge the administration to grant a special sign-up opportunity for uninsured taxpayers who will be facing fines under the law for the first time this year.The three are Michigan’s Sander Levin, the ranking Democrat on the Ways and Means Committee, and Democratic Reps. Jim McDermott of Washington, and Lloyd Doggett of Texas. All worked to help steer Obama’s law through rancorous congressional debates from 2009-2010.Open enrollment period ended before many Americans filed their taxes,” the three lawmakers said in a statement. “Without a special enrollment period, many people (who will be paying fines) will not have another opportunity to get health coverage this year.A special enrollment period will not only help many Americans avoid making an even larger payment next year, but, more importantly, it will help them gain quality health insurance for 2015,” the lawmakers added.





In March 2015, Democratic U.S. Senators who voted for Obamacare made yet another complaint about Obamacare, and asked for yet another delay to it




A provision of Obamacare says that in 2016, employers with between 51 and 100 employees will be moved from the “large group” market to the “small group” market. In March 2015, Democratic U.S. Senators who voted for Obamacare complained that this move would make insurance more expensive, and asked for it to be delayed.




Millennials who voted for Obama and supported the passage of Obamacare did not want to purchase Obamacare insurance for themselves



In December 2013, it was reported that most of the Millennials who had voted for Obama and had supported the passage of Obamacare did not want to purchase Obamacare insurance for themselves.



Obama voters in San Francsico area complained that Obamacare did not actually give them access to a doctor



Mountain View, California, is part of the San Francisco area, where Obama won both elections by a huge percentage. In April 2014, Obama voters in this area complained that Obamacare did not actually give them access to a doctor.

And here is criticism of Obamacare from labor unions who helped to get Obama elected. This is also my own writing, with links to sources. Spoilerized for size:

Spoiler:

After Obamcare was passed, unions that supported its passage requested and received special exemptions




Within months
after Obamacare was passed, Obama gave some organizations an exemption from some of the requirements of Obamacare. As time went on, more than 1,300 organizations received these exemptions.More than half of the people who are covered by insurance plans that received these exemptions are in union insurance plans. These unions supported the passage of Obamacare. But immediately after Obamacare was passed, these unions wanted exemptions from the very same law that they wanted to force everyone else to obey. This reveals an extreme level of hypocrisy among many of the supporters of Obamacare.In addition, these exemptions are illegal for two reasons – because Obama granted the exemptions without approval from Congress, and because the Constitution requires the law to treat everyone the same.The Washington Times wrote of this:Selective enforcement of the law is the first sign of tyranny. A government empowered to determine arbitrarily who may operate outside the rule of law invariably embraces favoritism as friends, allies and those with the best-funded lobbyists are rewarded. Favoritism inevitably leads to corruption, and corruption invites extortion. Ultimately, the rule of law ceases to exist in any recognizable form, and what is left is tyranny.The now-familiar monthly trickling down of new waivers is, at best, a tacit admission that Obamacare is a failure. So far, seven entire states and 1,372 businesses, unions and other institutions have received waivers from the law. The list includes the administration’s friends and allies and, of course, those who have the best lobbyists.More than 50 percent of the Obamacare waiver beneficiaries are union members, which is striking because union members account for less than 12 percent of the American work force. The same unions that provided more than $120 million to Democrats in the last two elections and, in many cases, openly campaigned in favor of the government takeover of your health care, now celebrate that Obamacare is not their problem.




Union members quit their union because of Obamacare





The AFL-CIO was a big supporter of the passaage of Obamacare in 2010, and supported Obama in both elections.In September 2013, it was reported that 40,000 longshoremen had quit the AFL-CIO, and that they had cited Obamacare as one of their reasons for doing so.



Unions that supported the passage of Obamacare in 2010 wanted new special exempetions in 2013





Here’s more hypocrisy from the unions that helped to get Obamacare passed.In January 2013, the Wall Street Journal reported:Some Unions Grow Wary of Health Law They BackedLabor unions enthusiastically backed the Obama administration’s health-care overhaul when it was up for debate. Now that the law is rolling out, some are turning sour.Union leaders say many of the law’s requirements will drive up the costs for their health-care plans and make unionized workers less competitive. Among other things, the law eliminates the caps on medical benefits and prescription drugs used as cost-containment measures in many health-care plans. It also allows children to stay on their parents’ plans until they turn 26.Some 20 million Americans are covered by the health-care plans at issueTop officers at the International Brotherhood of Teamsters, the AFL-CIO and other large labor groups plan to keep pressing the Obama administration to expand the federal subsidies to these jointly run plans, warning that unionized employers may otherwise drop coverage. A handful of unions say they already have examined whether it makes sense to shift workers off their current plansWe are going back to the administration to say that this is not acceptable,” said Ken Hall, general secretary-treasurer for the Teamsters, which has 1.6 million members and dependents in health-care plans. Other unions involved in the push include the United Food and Commercial Workers International Union and Unite HereSheet Metal Workers Local 85 in Atlanta, which has about 1,900 members. Next year it must lift the $250,000 annual cap on the amount it will pay for medical claims. The law’s requirements will add between 50 cents to $1 an hour to the cost of members’ compensation package





Obamacare pressures unions to reduce the amount of health insurance coverage for their employees





Still more hypocrisy from the unions that helped to pass Obamacare.In May 2013, the New York Times reported:Say goodbye to that $500 deductible insurance plan and the $20 co-payment for a doctor’s office visit. They are likely to become luxuries of the past.Expect to have your blood pressure checked or a prescription filled at a clinic at your office, rather than by your private doctor.Then blame the so-called Cadillac tax, which penalizes companies that offer high-end health care plans to their employees.Although the tax does not start until 2018, employers say they have to start now to meet the deadline and they are doing whatever they can to bring down the cost of their plans. Under the law, an employer or health insurer offering a plan that costs more than $10,200 for an individual and $27,500 for a family would typically pay a 40 percent excise tax on the amount exceeding the threshold.Tom Leibfried, a legislative director for the A.F.L.-C.I.O., one of the unions whose plans are vulnerable to the tax, says the demands that workers pay more for their care is a perennial aspect of labor negotiations. “We’re very concerned about the hollowing out of benefits in general,” he said. “What the excise tax will do is just fuel that.”




Obamacare is so horrible that even the IRS agents who run it don’t want to participate in it




Obama hired 16,500 new IRS agents to run Obamacare.But Obamacare is so awful that even the IRS agents who run it don’t want to participate in it.In July 2013, the National Treasury Employees Union, which represents the IRS employees who will be running Obamacare, provided a form letter to its members to send to their Congressmen. The letter stated:I am very concerned about legislation that has been introduced by Congressman Dave Camp to push federal employees out of the Federal Employees Health Benefits Program and into the insurance exchanges established under the Affordable Care Act.”When asked about this, IRS chief Daniel Werfel responded by saying:I don’t want to speak for the NTEU, but I’ll offer a perspective as a federal employee myself and a federal employee at the IRS. And that is, we have right now as employees of the government, of the IRS, affordable health care coverage. I think the ACA was designed to provide an option or an alternative for individuals that do not. And all else being equal, I think if you’re an individual who is satisfied with your health care coverage, you’re probably in a better position to stick with that coverage than go through the change of moving into a different environment and going through that process. So I think for a federal employee, I think more likely, and I would — can speak for myself, I would prefer to stay with the current policy that I’m pleased with rather than go through a change if I don’t need to go through that change.”




Obamacare places a 40% tax on so-called “Cadillac” insurance plans




Obamacare includes a 40% tax on so-called “Cadillac” insurance plans. In August 2013, unions that supported the passage of Obamacare complained about this tax.




Obama tried to give illegal Obamacare subsidies to unions without Congressional approval




In August 2013, it was reported that Obama was trying to give illegal Obamacare subsidies to unions, without approval from Congress.




Obamacare encouraged 30,000 Puget Sound grocery workers to vote in favor of authorizing a strike




In September 2013, a union representing 30,000 employees at Safeway, Fred Meyer, QFC, and Albertson’s in the Puget Sound area of Washington state voted in favor of authorizing a strike. Union members said that one of their reasons for voting in favor of the strike was that their employers were trying to switch their part time employees form employer provided insurance to the Obamacare exchanges.



SEIU union went on strike over Obamacare



The Service Employees International Union supported Obama in both elections, and also supported the passage of Obamacare.However, in September 2013, member of the Chicago chapter of the SEIU went on strike over jobs cuts that were caused by Obamacare.



MSNBC host Ed Schultz supports Obamacare but wants unions to be exempt from it




After Obamacare was passed, MSNBC host Ed Schultz praised it almost every day for three years. However, on Sepotember 26, 2013, just five days before the Obamacare exchanges were to begin, Schultz said that unions should be exempt from it.



In December 2013, Obama gave unions even more illegal exemptions from Obamacare




In December 2013, it was reported that Obama had illegally exempted some unions from some of the Obamacare fees, without approval from Congress.




"Labor union officials say Obama betrayed them in health-care rollout”





In January 2014, the Washington Post reported:Labor union officials say Obama betrayed them in health-care rolloutLeaders of two major unions, including the first to endorse Obama in 2008, said they have been betrayed by an administration that wooed their support for the 2009 legislation with promises to later address the peculiar needs of union-negotiated insurance plans that cover millions of workers.Their complaints reflect a broad sense of disappointment among many labor leaders, who say the Affordable Care Act has subjected union health plans to new taxes and mandates while not allowing them to share in the subsidies that have gone to private insurance companies competing on the newly created exchanges.After dozens of frustrating meetings with White House officials over the past year, including one with Obama, a number of angry labor officials say their members are far less likely to campaign and turn out for Democratic candidates in the midterm elections.We want to hold the president to his word: If you like your health-care coverage, you can keep it, and that just hasn’t been the case,” said Donald “D.” Taylor, president of Unite Here, the union that represents about 400,000 hotel and restaurant workers and provided a crucial boost to Obama by endorsing him just after his rival Hillary Rodham Clinton had won the New Hampshire primary.Taylor and Terry O’Sullivan, president of the Laborers’ International Union of North America, laid out their grievances this week in a terse letter to House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) and Senate Majority Leader Harry M. Reid (D-Nev.), saying they are “bitterly disappointed” in the administration.



Obama illegally gave unions an exemption from Obamacare’s “reinsurance” tax



Obamacare includes a so-called “reinsurance” tax. In March 2014, Obama gave unions an exemption from this tax. This was illegal for two reasons. First, Obama made this change without approval from Congress. And second, the Constitution requires that laws apply equally to everyone.



Unite Here said Obamacare “threatens the middle class with higher premiums, loss of hours, and a shift to part-time work and less comprehensive coverage.




Unite Here is a union that represents 300,000 employees in the hotel and restaurant industries. It supported Obama in both elections.In March 2014, Unite Here said:If employers follow the incentives in the law, they will push families onto the exchanges to buy coverage. This will force low-wage service industry employees to spend $2.00, $3.00 or even $5.00 an hour of their pay to buy similar coverage.”“… the ACA threatens the middle class with higher premiums, loss of hours, and a shift to part-time work and less comprehensive coverage.”Obamacare will cost our members the equivalent of a significant pay cut to keep their hard-won benefits.”“… it will inevitably lead to the destruction of the health care plans we were promised we could keep.”




After supporting Obama in both elections, the National Education Association complained that Obamacare’s Cadillac tax would “unfairly cause hardship to American workers and their families”





The National Education Association is a teachers union. It supported Obama in both elections. In April 2015, it complained that Obamacare’s Cadillac tax would “unfairly cause hardship to American workers and their families.

Last edited by grundle; 01-29-19 at 07:38 PM.
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Old 01-29-19, 07:27 PM
  #21  
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Re: Danes Rethink a Welfare State Ample to a Fault

I see a lot of bashing of the U.S. in some of these responses.

I don't mind the off topic comments. But how about also having some on topic comments in your responses?

Specifically, so far, no one here has explained why able bodied people in Denmark (or any other country for that matter) should be allowed to collect welfare, for a very long time, where the welfare benefits are more than what people with full time jobs earn from their jobs.
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Old 01-29-19, 07:30 PM
  #22  
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Re: Danes Rethink a Welfare State Ample to a Fault

Originally Posted by Sdallnct View Post


The ACA was an improvement. A vast improvement and working well. Till of course Trump fucked it up and now. Thank God he had that “Replacement” ready to go that would be so much better and so “easy”.

But the messing around is over. It’s time to go Single Payer. I hope more Democrates come out for it and I’ll vote/pull for those that do.




A few posts ago in this thread, I cited a huge number of examples of Democrats and unions criticizing Obamacare.

All of those criticisms are from before Trump was elected.

Please explain how any of those criticisms are Trump's fault.

Last edited by grundle; 01-29-19 at 07:41 PM.
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Old 01-29-19, 08:02 PM
  #23  
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Re: Danes Rethink a Welfare State Ample to a Fault

Originally Posted by grundle View Post
I see a lot of bashing of the U.S. in some of these responses.

I don't mind the off topic comments. But how about also having some on topic comments in your responses?

Specifically, so far, no one here has explained why able bodied people in Denmark (or any other country for that matter) should be allowed to collect welfare, for a very long time, where the welfare benefits are more than what people with full time jobs earn from their jobs.
Because other countries can do whatever they want if the people there support it?
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Old 01-30-19, 12:23 AM
  #24  
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Re: Danes Rethink a Welfare State Ample to a Fault

The whole initial point of this thread seems to be "socialism sucks/ America rules". (I could be wrong in that assertion, admittedly) No country on Earth wants the American healthcare system (including America). And whatever faults the Danish social safety net has, it is most likely more appealing to the Danes than our social Darwinism-presented-as-"freedom".





Because other countries can do whatever they want if the people there support it?

Last edited by PatD; 01-30-19 at 12:54 AM.
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Old 01-30-19, 07:48 AM
  #25  
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Re: Danes Rethink a Welfare State Ample to a Fault

Originally Posted by grundle View Post
Specifically, so far, no one here has explained why able bodied people in Denmark (or any other country for that matter) should be allowed to collect welfare, for a very long time, where the welfare benefits are more than what people with full time jobs earn from their jobs.
Because it's none of our business. It's well known that the Danish are among the happiest people in the world. They found a system that works for them so why should we have a problem with it?
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