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First woman fined in Denmark for wearing full-face veil

Old 08-04-18, 06:40 PM
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First woman fined in Denmark for wearing full-face veil

As a person who values individual liberty and limited government, I'd be very much opposed to a law like this in the U.S. It would be a violation of the first amendment, as well as something that I would view as being totalitarian.

But Denmark is the "happiest" and "most progressive" country in the world, and who am I to tell them what to do?

I do have to wonder why Muslims would immigrate to Denmark when it is so Islamophobic.


https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...full-face-veil

First woman fined in Denmark for wearing full-face veil

Woman fined 1,000 kroner (£120) and told to either remove her veil or leave the public space

August 4, 2018

A 28-year-old woman wearing a niqab on Friday became the first person in Denmark to be fined for violating a new law banning full-face Islamic veils in public places, media reported.

Police were called to a shopping centre in Horsholm, in the north-eastern region of Nordsjaelland, where the woman had become involved in a scuffle with another woman who had tried to tear her niqab off, police duty officer David Borchersen told the Ritzau news agency.

“During the fight her niqab came off, but by the time we arrived she had put it back on again,” Borchersen said.
Protests in Denmark as 'burqa ban' comes into effect
Read more

Police took a photograph of the woman wearing the niqab, and obtained security camera footage from the shopping centre of the incident.

The woman was informed she would receive a fine of 1,000 kroner (£120) in the post, and was told to either remove her veil or leave the public space.

“She chose the latter,” Borchersen said.

As of 1 August, wearing a burqa, which covers a person’s entire face, or the niqab, which only shows the eyes, in public carries a fine of 1,000 kroner.

Repeated violations can be fined up to 10,000 kroner.

The ban also targets other accessories that hide the face such as balaclavas, masks and false beards.

Human rights campaigners say the ban is a violation of women’s rights, while supporters argue it enables better integration of Muslim immigrants.
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Belgium, France, Germany and Austria have also imposed bans or partial bans of full-face veils.
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Old 08-04-18, 08:01 PM
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Re: First woman fined in Denmark for wearing full-face veil

I think women should wear what they want in public. That being said, I think government issued ID's should show the person's face.
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Old 08-04-18, 08:07 PM
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Re: First woman fined in Denmark for wearing full-face veil

I think people should assimilate. All things being equal it’s their greatest chance at finding success.
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Old 08-06-18, 03:27 PM
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Re: First woman fined in Denmark for wearing full-face veil

Originally Posted by Mabuse View Post
I think people should assimilate. All things being equal itís their greatest chance at finding success.

I think assimilation is a good thing too.
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Old 08-06-18, 04:55 PM
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Re: First woman fined in Denmark for wearing full-face veil

Originally Posted by grundle View Post
I think assimilation is a good thing too.
Lets flip the script, Mabuse and Grundle if for one reason or another (job related/woman you are about to marry wanted to live in her homeland near her family, or something like that) you ended up living in Saudi Arabia/Iraq/Syria/Iran/Algeria/Libya/Egypt/etc., does this mean you would make an effort to go native?

That is, would you "assimilate" by trying to quickly learn the native language and also converting to say Islam (which lets face it is the majority religion in many of the countries above, and a non-muslim probably sticks out like a sore thumb)?

Heck, I would like to pose this question to any DVD Talker who feels that "foreigners" should assimilate when they get to the United States.
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Old 08-06-18, 05:04 PM
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Re: First woman fined in Denmark for wearing full-face veil

To add to that, would you, if you were to move to a predominantly Islamic country for work and brought female family members with you, insist they wear a head scarf in order to "assimilate"?
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Old 08-06-18, 05:26 PM
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Re: First woman fined in Denmark for wearing full-face veil

Yes, if I had move and live somewhere far different, I feel that I would have no choice but to assimilate as best I could within that culture/area. If I wasn't willing to do so, I wouldn't make the move/take the job.
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Old 08-06-18, 05:43 PM
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Re: First woman fined in Denmark for wearing full-face veil

Of course I would assimilate. Not sure I’d convert to Islam, nor do I believe one needs to in the modern Middle East.

There are Catholic Churches in Europe where women need to cover their heads. Of course the wife plays along when we visit these places.

If I was making the choice to move my life to a new culture I think I’d want to be a part of its culture.

Anecdote: I was eating breakfast this morning at a cafe. Tourists at the table next to me. I could tell they were foreign. I guessed Italian. We got to talking. Turns out they’re visiting from Egypt. It’s not like anyone is in ethnic garb anymore. They looked like Californians for the most part. Simple, casual fashion. I bet dollars to donuts I could roll in Cairo wearing the same shit I’m wearing today.

Last edited by Mabuse; 08-06-18 at 05:52 PM.
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Old 08-06-18, 06:04 PM
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Re: First woman fined in Denmark for wearing full-face veil

I’m not even sure how not assimilating is an option. Would I wear 10 gallon hats every day and snake skin boots? Maybe buy a 1981 Camero? Would I live in some kind of American ex-pat ghetto?

Uh-oh I just realized what Dubai is: An ex-pat ghetto.
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Old 08-06-18, 06:10 PM
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Re: First woman fined in Denmark for wearing full-face veil

I love Denmark. Can't wait to go back!
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Old 08-06-18, 06:32 PM
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Re: First woman fined in Denmark for wearing full-face veil

If I were to move to Japan, I wouldn't assimilate. I'd be an annoying American the whole time I was there. Hell, they'd expect such behavior from me. They wouldn't respect me if I assimilated.
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Old 08-06-18, 07:02 PM
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Re: First woman fined in Denmark for wearing full-face veil

That is a great answer.
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Old 08-06-18, 07:03 PM
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Re: First woman fined in Denmark for wearing full-face veil

Originally Posted by Paff View Post
To add to that, would you, if you were to move to a predominantly Islamic country for work and brought female family members with you, insist they wear a head scarf in order to "assimilate"?
In certain countries it wouldnít be up to me what my wife does. Itís the norm and everyone must do it.
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Old 08-06-18, 10:05 PM
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Re: First woman fined in Denmark for wearing full-face veil

Originally Posted by Inhumans99 View Post
Lets flip the script, Mabuse and Grundle if for one reason or another (job related/woman you are about to marry wanted to live in her homeland near her family, or something like that) you ended up living in Saudi Arabia/Iraq/Syria/Iran/Algeria/Libya/Egypt/etc., does this mean you would make an effort to go native?

That is, would you "assimilate" by trying to quickly learn the native language and also converting to say Islam (which lets face it is the majority religion in many of the countries above, and a non-muslim probably sticks out like a sore thumb)?

Heck, I would like to pose this question to any DVD Talker who feels that "foreigners" should assimilate when they get to the United States.

That is an excellent question.

My answer is that I would never move to a country that was rated poorly in the Freedom in the World index.

And I would never marry someone who wanted me to live in such a country.

And I would never take a job that required me to live in such a country.

As I said in my first post, I am against the U.S. passing this kind of law.

I don't care how other people dress. But I do support assimilation when it comes to learning the language and obeying the law.
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Old 08-06-18, 10:12 PM
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Re: First woman fined in Denmark for wearing full-face veil

Originally Posted by slop101 View Post
Yes, if I had move and live somewhere far different, I feel that I would have no choice but to assimilate as best I could within that culture/area. If I wasn't willing to do so, I wouldn't make the move/take the job.

I never understood why a person would want to move to a country if they did not want to assimilate.

It's like if I, a vegetarian, went to a steak restaurant, but I expected them to serve me something that wasn't even on their menu.

I would never do such a thing.

So why would a person want to move to a country if they did not want to assimilate?
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Old 08-06-18, 10:54 PM
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Re: First woman fined in Denmark for wearing full-face veil

Originally Posted by grundle View Post
I never understood why a person would want to move to a country if they did not want to assimilate.

It's like if I, a vegetarian, went to a steak restaurant, but I expected them to serve me something that wasn't even on their menu.

I would never do such a thing.

So why would a person want to move to a country if they did not want to assimilate?
I guess that's why America was considered cool for a while, people thought they could come here and be free to be who they were.
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Old 08-06-18, 11:34 PM
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Re: First woman fined in Denmark for wearing full-face veil

Originally Posted by Kurtie Dee View Post
I guess that's why America was considered cool for a while, people thought they could come here and be free to be who they were.

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Old 08-27-18, 01:24 AM
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Re: First woman fined in Denmark for wearing full-face veil

Originally Posted by VinVega View Post
I think women should wear what they want in public. That being said, I think government issued ID's should show the person's face.
Agreed wholeheartedly on the ID part, but I'm not entirely sold on Muslim women in the West being allowed to wear the niqab, much less the burka. Note that I'm referring to niqabs and burkas - which cover the entire face and head - specifically, not hijabs (to which I have no objection whatever, other than finding them as faintly ridiculous as any other religious paraphernalia, such as crosses, yarmulkes, etc.).
Yes, freedom of religion and so forth, but there's also the matter of, firstly, belonging and interacting, which are difficult to achieve if one walks around completely covered and inaccessible; and secondly, impressing those around you in public spaces that you are a trustworthy human being, which is hard to do if they cannot see your face, let alone your eyes. Men have been known to hide under these garments for nefarious purposes in the Middle East. This apparel is just not conducive to living in an open, free, embracing society. It connotes just the opposite: furtiveness, suspicion, aversion. I can just imagine how I would be perceived if I were to walk around in public wearing a ski mask. Unless I were on the slopes wearing skis and a parka, people would think I'm robbing a bank.
As Denmark's justice minister put it, defending the ban, "We must also be able to see each other's facial expressions, it's a value in Denmark."

On the other hand, we have no such ban in Canada (nor is there one, to my knowledge, anywhere in the States), and I am not aware of any criminal or terroristic incidents involving niqabs or burkas here, so I am not in favour of a ban at this point. But the Danes have decided to ban them, so that's just how it is.
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Old 08-27-18, 01:46 AM
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Re: First woman fined in Denmark for wearing full-face veil

Originally Posted by Inhumans99 View Post
Lets flip the script, Mabuse and Grundle if for one reason or another (job related/woman you are about to marry wanted to live in her homeland near her family, or something like that) you ended up living in Saudi Arabia/Iraq/Syria/Iran/Algeria/Libya/Egypt/etc., does this mean you would make an effort to go native?

That is, would you "assimilate" by trying to quickly learn the native language and also converting to say Islam (which lets face it is the majority religion in many of the countries above, and a non-muslim probably sticks out like a sore thumb)?

Heck, I would like to pose this question to any DVD Talker who feels that "foreigners" should assimilate when they get to the United States.
I would learn the language for sure - you can't expect to do well without that. I also wouldn't engage in activity that would draw the ire of the locals.

But converting to another religion? No one is asking people to change religions when they come to the United States, just to adopt as much of our social norms as possible within the boundaries of their religious beliefs (IF they have religious beliefs - they may be atheists or agnostics for all you know).
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Old 08-27-18, 01:51 AM
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Re: First woman fined in Denmark for wearing full-face veil

Here's a big issue with Muslim women covering their entire faces. If they come to America and get drivers licenses they HAVE to uncover their faces for ID picture purposes. And IF they get pulled over they would HAVE to uncover their faces to prove that they are really the person who is licensed to drive.

There are practical reasons to at least require them to remove such coverings under specific circumstances where identification is necessary.
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Old 08-27-18, 08:26 AM
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Re: First woman fined in Denmark for wearing full-face veil

Originally Posted by B5Erik View Post
Here's a big issue with Muslim women covering their entire faces. If they come to America and get drivers licenses they HAVE to uncover their faces for ID picture purposes. And IF they get pulled over they would HAVE to uncover their faces to prove that they are really the person who is licensed to drive.

There are practical reasons to at least require them to remove such coverings under specific circumstances where identification is necessary.
Not to mention that the covering of their faces (and entire bodies) is some religious bullshit meant to oppress women.
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Old 08-27-18, 09:23 AM
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Re: First woman fined in Denmark for wearing full-face veil

Originally Posted by Spiderbite View Post
Not to mention that the covering of their faces (and entire bodies) is some religious bullshit meant to oppress women.
Exactly. I find it curious that people are trying to reframe something meant to keep women down as a women's rights issue.
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Old 08-27-18, 12:17 PM
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Re: First woman fined in Denmark for wearing full-face veil

Originally Posted by GhostLee View Post
Exactly. I find it curious that people are trying to reframe something meant to keep women down as a women's rights issue.
While I agree wholeheartedly about the origin of Muslim womens' fashion concepts, you have to see that they want to wear them to be modest. There's that political cartoon of one woman wearing a burka, and another wearing a skimpy bikini, and both are thinking about the other "It's a shame what the men in their community make them wear".

Let's say you went to some really radical community that believes wearing clothes is a concept forced upon you due to outdated religious beliefs (the wearing of clothes is outlined in Genesis) and expects you to walk around starkers when you're there visiting. Would you? And if not, would you admit that wearing clothes is some form of religious oppression? Or just that you feel a little more comfortable with at least a pair of boxers on when you're in public? Because as crazy as it sounds, Muslim women not in some kind of head scarf or more feel naked.
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Old 08-27-18, 12:24 PM
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Re: First woman fined in Denmark for wearing full-face veil

Originally Posted by Paff View Post
While I agree wholeheartedly about the origin of Muslim womens' fashion concepts, you have to see that they want to wear them to be modest. There's that political cartoon of one woman wearing a burka, and another wearing a skimpy bikini, and both are thinking about the other "It's a shame what the men in their community make them wear".

Let's say you went to some really radical community that believes wearing clothes is a concept forced upon you due to outdated religious beliefs (the wearing of clothes is outlined in Genesis) and expects you to walk around starkers when you're there visiting. Would you? And if not, would you admit that wearing clothes is some form of religious oppression? Or just that you feel a little more comfortable with at least a pair of boxers on when you're in public? Because as crazy as it sounds, Muslim women not in some kind of head scarf or more feel naked.
Maybe they do. But if you were taught from childhood that your body is something to be ashamed of, that must be hidden from men because it's not their responsibility to refrain from being inappropriate with you but yours to drape yourself so they can't see you .... Maybe what we should do is not teach girls bullshit like that.
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Old 08-27-18, 01:27 PM
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Re: First woman fined in Denmark for wearing full-face veil

Originally Posted by Vibiana View Post
Maybe they do. But if you were taught from childhood that your body is something to be ashamed of, that must be hidden from men because it's not their responsibility to refrain from being inappropriate with you but yours to drape yourself so they can't see you .... Maybe what we should do is not teach girls bullshit like that.
You won't see me in a Speedo anytime soon. Middle-aged fat men don't wear them if they live in America.
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