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Feminist studies prof complains that "Women are underrepresented in higher-wage jobs"

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Feminist studies prof complains that "Women are underrepresented in higher-wage jobs"

Old 06-14-18, 04:24 AM
  #51  
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Re: Feminist studies prof complains that "Women are underrepresented in higher-wage j

Then people blame that look at the women of third world country.
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Old 06-14-18, 12:55 PM
  #52  
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Re: Feminist studies prof complains that "Women are underrepresented in higher-wage j

Originally Posted by creekdipper View Post
If one cannot prove the "discrimination," how does one know that the "discrimination" actually exists?

Maybe John is more creative than Jane. That's a subjective judgment call in the eyes of the employer.
Well I usually don't get serious on here because most threads here devolve into name calling and general anarchy but I'll throw in some things.

I've hired lots of people. Never once have I offered a woman less than a man who have equal education and experience. I've got a range and options that I can offer them and I start low and we negotiate.

In my experience men are far more aggressive and risk takers and are willing to say no to a 1st or 2nd offer. Rarely do I need to make a 2nd offer to a woman or almost never a 3rd. So they wind up getting paid less than the guy we hired doing the same job. It's not because she's a women.. it's that she didn't negotiate her salary strongly enough. They both had equal opportunities. I have had strong female candidates that negotiated higher salaries and men who didn't - but that's not "common" in my experience.

Aside from that I think any candidates with the same level of experience and education should be offered the same thing but you almost never have that. In an IT field, for whatever reason, men seem to have more experience and education for the job they are applying for than women - probably along the percentage lines mentioned here in this thread. However, to keep a balance, I will take a chance on a woman was less education and experience but I can't offer her the same salary range. Again - not because she's a woman but because she doesn't have the same experience or education to warrant a higher pay range to start.

However if you step back from these examples and ignore the details you'll see it's women not being paid the same as men for the same job. But is that really what it is?

Fortunately for me I was able to jump out of this role and back into a more technical role (yay!) so this is a couple of years stale.

I know this post was about pay and not representation. In IT there just aren't as many female candidates... or at least there wasn't. Hopefully that will change.

Last edited by General Zod; 06-14-18 at 01:00 PM.
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Old 06-14-18, 01:12 PM
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Re: Feminist studies prof complains that "Women are underrepresented in higher-wage j

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry...b09d7a3d7a03c6

Music industry as well...has an issue.
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Old 06-14-18, 01:17 PM
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Re: Feminist studies prof complains that "Women are underrepresented in higher-wage j

Originally Posted by General Zod View Post
Well I usually don't get serious on here because most threads here devolve into name calling and general anarchy but I'll throw in some things.

I've hired lots of people. Never once have I offered a woman less than a man who have equal education and experience. I've got a range and options that I can offer them and I start low and we negotiate.

In my experience men are far more aggressive and risk takers and are willing to say no to a 1st or 2nd offer. Rarely do I need to make a 2nd offer to a woman or almost never a 3rd. So they wind up getting paid less than the guy we hired doing the same job. It's not because she's a women.. it's that she didn't negotiate her salary strongly enough. They both had equal opportunities. I have had strong female candidates that negotiated higher salaries and men who didn't - but that's not "common" in my experience.

Aside from that I think any candidates with the same level of experience and education should be offered the same thing but you almost never have that. In an IT field, for whatever reason, men seem to have more experience and education for the job they are applying for than women - probably along the percentage lines mentioned here in this thread. However, to keep a balance, I will take a chance on a woman was less education and experience but I can't offer her the same salary range. Again - not because she's a woman but because she doesn't have the same experience or education to warrant a higher pay range to start.

However if you step back from these examples and ignore the details you'll see it's women not being paid the same as men for the same job. But is that really what it is?

Fortunately for me I was able to jump out of this role and back into a more technical role (yay!) so this is a couple of years stale.

I know this post was about pay and not representation. In IT there just aren't as many female candidates... or at least there wasn't. Hopefully that will change.
Nice of you to post ur personal experiences.

Let’s not forget how this thread started. Grundle posted saying “how about women not take feminist studies and instead becomes doctors”. Then I posted a link showing women doctors don’t get paid as much as men doctors. Grindle’s response? “Don’t think the article gave enough information. Maybe women drs work less” without any evidence to back that (just as likely men drs work less).

Of course you can find individual situations. But I find it incredible that people can ignore the overall trend.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cnb...at-simple.html

Discussion on men v. Women CEO. I’d venture a guess that women at that level are as aggressive as men (if that’s really a thing anyway).

Last edited by Sdallnct; 06-14-18 at 01:23 PM.
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Old 06-14-18, 01:33 PM
  #55  
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Re: Feminist studies prof complains that "Women are underrepresented in higher-wage j

Originally Posted by General Zod View Post
Well I usually don't get serious on here because most threads here devolve into name calling and general anarchy but I'll throw in some things.

I've hired lots of people. Never once have I offered a woman less than a man who have equal education and experience. I've got a range and options that I can offer them and I start low and we negotiate.

In my experience men are far more aggressive and risk takers and are willing to say no to a 1st or 2nd offer. Rarely do I need to make a 2nd offer to a woman or almost never a 3rd. So they wind up getting paid less than the guy we hired doing the same job. It's not because she's a women.. it's that she didn't negotiate her salary strongly enough. They both had equal opportunities. I have had strong female candidates that negotiated higher salaries and men who didn't - but that's not "common" in my experience.

Aside from that I think any candidates with the same level of experience and education should be offered the same thing but you almost never have that. In an IT field, for whatever reason, men seem to have more experience and education for the job they are applying for than women - probably along the percentage lines mentioned here in this thread. However, to keep a balance, I will take a chance on a woman was less education and experience but I can't offer her the same salary range. Again - not because she's a woman but because she doesn't have the same experience or education to warrant a higher pay range to start.

However if you step back from these examples and ignore the details you'll see it's women not being paid the same as men for the same job. But is that really what it is?

Fortunately for me I was able to jump out of this role and back into a more technical role (yay!) so this is a couple of years stale.

I know this post was about pay and not representation. In IT there just aren't as many female candidates... or at least there wasn't. Hopefully that will change.
I recently saw something like that in my own job search. I interviewed for a job, and discussed salary at the beginning (before even being interviewed, as what they were offering was too low for the position and I didn't want to waste anyone's time.) Company said of course, we can offer X, then after the interview, made me a ridiculous low ball offer. I said "nope, but thanks anyway," and thought it was over. It never occurred to me to negotiate, because my job is very plug and play, and there is a going rate. They came back with the going rate a couple days later, and offered to pay my travel (also standard). So I took it. I was surprised, though as in my mind, we were done.

Shockingly, they made a big deal out of me not telling anyone what I was getting paid there. I agreed, but it perpetuates their ability to lowball people.

My husband works in IT (academia now, but previously on wall street) and he's the opposite about salary negotiations. He has timed his offers so he could have competing companies bidding his salary up. I couldn't imagine doing that, but it's effective.
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Old 06-14-18, 03:25 PM
  #56  
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Re: Feminist studies prof complains that "Women are underrepresented in higher-wage j

So the question becomes, is the potential employee who negotiated hard and aggressive being smart? Or are companies taking advantage of those (men or women) that don’t?
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Old 06-14-18, 03:36 PM
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Re: Feminist studies prof complains that "Women are underrepresented in higher-wage j

Originally Posted by Sdallnct View Post
So the question becomes, is the potential employee who negotiated hard and aggressive being smart? Or are companies taking advantage of those (men or women) that don’t?
Some people don't like negotiating.

Most people don't try getting a better price on their fridge or TV. I can always squeeze an extra 25% off almost anything significant I can buy. I call up my cable company each year and get them to lower by bill to whatever is the best promotion they or their competition is running saving me hundreds of dollars a year. I call up my car insurance every couple years and get them to drop their price.

Everything is negotiable. I've always let my managers know during my career when I expected a promotion and that I was willing to leave to get it. A couple times during my career when I confident that I was a top performer, I talked to VP level and explained why I deserved more money and got large raises.

If men are more likely to do this, then it would explain a gap. But, like you said, it also affects men that lack the confidence to demand what they think is fair, or be willing to change jobs for better opportunities. Then there is the aspect of hours work and whether men work more hours than women on average at the same job and who values time at home more. Too many variables involved during the course of a career.
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Old 06-14-18, 03:39 PM
  #58  
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Re: Feminist studies prof complains that "Women are underrepresented in higher-wage j

Originally Posted by Sdallnct View Post
So the question becomes, is the potential employee who negotiated hard and aggressive being smart? Or are companies taking advantage of those (men or women) that don’t?
Yeah, I think Zod's anecdote is actually a very good one, and likely reflective of a lot of what goes on.
But like you're saying... should people be rewarded for, arguably, better negotiation and not necessarily better work. I'm personally conflicted in that sense because I totally get the argument that negotiating your salary is practically an art, and those that do it well tend to get paid better. But, on the other side of that, how well someone negotiates isn't necessarily indicative of how well they do their job. If person A just does a better job with no questions asked, and person B isn't quite as good as person A but negotiates their salary better, is it "fair" or "right" for B to make more than A? In a way... yes, absolutely. In another way... no, not so much. And, for the company, they have the right to have different amounts they'll offer to those who will negotiate for it; that's part of business too.

I don't think there's a right answer there, honestly. I just think most people aren't good negotiators; if they were, then car dealerships wouldn't make any money.
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Old 06-14-18, 05:23 PM
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Re: Feminist studies prof complains that "Women are underrepresented in higher-wage j

While I think it’s a fair discussion, do we have any evidence that “negotiations” is a real reason for the pay gap?

As for car dealership, I simply refuse to negotiate. My negotiation is “here is what I want at this price, yes or no”. If it no, I’m out and won’t return. Personally I think the only thing keeping them around is them paying a lot of taxes and in politians pocket.

I bought my Jeep from a fleet salesman not on commission and he gave me a fair price (actually a couple hundred less than anticipated). I want to buy my next one off Amazon using Prime for 2nd day free delivery
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Old 06-14-18, 05:35 PM
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Re: Feminist studies prof complains that "Women are underrepresented in higher-wage j

The Zod speaks the truth. I have negotiated a better salary than was initially offered on the last three jobs I took (comprising the last twenty or so years of my career). Not always directly--i sometimes work with agencies. But he's right that women are socialized to take the first offer.
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Old 06-15-18, 12:32 PM
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Re: Feminist studies prof complains that "Women are underrepresented in higher-wage j

Originally Posted by Vibiana View Post
The Zod speaks the truth. I have negotiated a better salary than was initially offered on the last three jobs I took (comprising the last twenty or so years of my career). Not always directly--i sometimes work with agencies. But he's right that women are socialized to take the first offer.
Gadzooks! Could things like the wage gap be more complex than ‘greedy employers should just fire all the men and hire women who will work for less’?

I’m stunned.
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Old 06-15-18, 01:45 PM
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Re: Feminist studies prof complains that "Women are underrepresented in higher-wage j

https://www.denverpost.com/2018/05/1...it-settlement/

And can we please stop the idiotic notion of “if there was a pay gap women would be suing”. Women are suing. And as noted before it is often difficult many are winning.

Here, female professors at Denver University not only get a settlement but the University agrees to raise female professors current pay to “close the gap”.

“The University of Denver has agreed to pay $2.66 million to settle an unequal-pay lawsuit brought by seven female professors at its Sturm College of Law.

The professors also will receive pay increases this year as part of the conditions of the settlement. DU also has agreed to take steps to eliminate the gender pay gap at Sturm, according to a news release by attorneys Charlotte Sweeney and Joan Bechtold, who represent six of the professors.”

http://www.krqe.com/news/albuquerque...pay/1230480221

Here another University is being sued by the female professors.
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Old 06-15-18, 05:49 PM
  #63  
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Re: Feminist studies prof complains that "Women are underrepresented in higher-wage j

Originally Posted by grundle View Post
1) If women are paid less then men for doing the exact same work, then why don't greedy employees fire all of their male employees and replace them with women?
Originally Posted by Kurtie Dee View Post
Grundle, this is the real world we're talking about. The one you reference often in studies you mention.

The above question shows such a fundamental misunderstanding about how the world actually works, that I can't even.

The world is not a Playmobil set.

Please, when you come up with your ideas, sit for a moment and try to envision what would need to happen to enact your plan.

Please!

In the real world, employers are greedy, and they do whatever they can to pay their employees as little as possible.

Greedy employers hire illegal aliens to save money.

Greedy employers force their American workers to train their foreign replacements.

Greedy employers try to replace uniionized labor with lower paid, non-union scabs when they think they can get away with it.

Time and time again, greedy employers do whatever they can to find lower paid labor.

But now you want me to believe that greedy employers have all of a sudden stopped being greedy, and decided that they don't want to replace higher paid men with lower paid women?

I'm not buying your claim that employers choose this one and only time to stop being greedy, and to stop wanting the cheapest labor that they can get.
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Old 06-15-18, 05:55 PM
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Re: Feminist studies prof complains that "Women are underrepresented in higher-wage j

Originally Posted by Sdallnct View Post
Nice of you to post ur personal experiences.

Let’s not forget how this thread started. Grundle posted saying “how about women not take feminist studies and instead becomes doctors”. Then I posted a link showing women doctors don’t get paid as much as men doctors. Grindle’s response? “Don’t think the article gave enough information. Maybe women drs work less” without any evidence to back that (just as likely men drs work less).

Of course you can find individual situations. But I find it incredible that people can ignore the overall trend.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cnb...at-simple.html

Discussion on men v. Women CEO. I’d venture a guess that women at that level are as aggressive as men (if that’s really a thing anyway).

You have misquoted me. Shame on you.

These are my actual words:

Originally Posted by grundle View Post
If this gap is due to discrimination by their employers, then the government needs to enforce the Equal Pay Act of 1963.

On the other hand, if it is due to the fact that, on average, men and women choose to work different numbers of hours each week, then there is no problem, and nothing needs to be done.

Either way, shame on the CNN reporter for not raising this issue in the article. A better reporter would have done so.
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Old 06-15-18, 08:59 PM
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Re: Feminist studies prof complains that "Women are underrepresented in higher-wage j

Originally Posted by grundle View Post
You have misquoted me. Shame on you.

These are my actual words:
You are correct I did not use your exact words. But I believe I captured ur sentiments.

And I’ve posted several times where women have sued and either won or won settlements. College professors, professional sports teams, etc, etc.

So if women are winning settlements and lawsuits will you now agree there is a pay gap issue? Since u were trying to say there were no lawsuits which you used as evidence as not being an issue?

http://www.abajournal.com/magazine/a...g_pay_fairness

For fun here is another “high paying position” similar to what u demeaningly refered to in your original post. Women suing for equal pay.

Last edited by Sdallnct; 06-15-18 at 09:05 PM.
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Old 06-16-18, 06:59 PM
  #66  
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Re: Feminist studies prof complains that "Women are underrepresented in higher-wage j

Originally Posted by Sdallnct View Post
You are correct I did not use your exact words. But I believe I captured ur sentiments.

And I’ve posted several times where women have sued and either won or won settlements. College professors, professional sports teams, etc, etc.

So if women are winning settlements and lawsuits will you now agree there is a pay gap issue? Since u were trying to say there were no lawsuits which you used as evidence as not being an issue?

http://www.abajournal.com/magazine/a...g_pay_fairness

For fun here is another “high paying position” similar to what u demeaningly refered to in your original post. Women suing for equal pay.

There is definitely a gender pay gap at some employers, even when you adjust for education, occupation, experience, and hours worked per week.
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Old 06-16-18, 10:10 PM
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Re: Feminist studies prof complains that "Women are underrepresented in higher-wage j

Originally Posted by grundle View Post
In the real world, employers are greedy, and they do whatever they can to pay their employees as little as possible.

Greedy employers hire illegal aliens to save money.

Greedy employers force their American workers to train their foreign replacements.

Greedy employers try to replace uniionized labor with lower paid, non-union scabs when they think they can get away with it.

Time and time again, greedy employers do whatever they can to find lower paid labor.

But now you want me to believe that greedy employers have all of a sudden stopped being greedy, and decided that they don't want to replace higher paid men with lower paid women?

I'm not buying your claim that employers choose this one and only time to stop being greedy, and to stop wanting the cheapest labor that they can get.
I made no such claim.

But I’m too tired to explain what I meant by asking you to think deeply about what would need to actually happen for greedy employers to fire all the men, and why your question is not an adequate refutation of the wage gap.
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Old 06-16-18, 10:26 PM
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Re: Feminist studies prof complains that "Women are underrepresented in higher-wage j

Women are more 'expensive' employees. The moment men can get pregnant, and are given the equal amount of 'maternity leave' with pay, let's talk. Also, Obsterics benefits, etc are expensive...

Some women should still be at home, bringing up their families in a good home environment. We'd probably have a better, less impatient society, if our children were being raised in a more traditional environment, where maternal love and *physical presence* was expressed, exhibited, and valued more highly than it is now!
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Old 06-17-18, 10:09 AM
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Re: Feminist studies prof complains that "Women are underrepresented in higher-wage j

This thread is certainly proving that we need more feminists and more women’s studies.
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Old 06-17-18, 11:19 AM
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Re: Feminist studies prof complains that "Women are underrepresented in higher-wage j

Originally Posted by zyzzle View Post
Women are more 'expensive' employees. The moment men can get pregnant, and are given the equal amount of 'maternity leave' with pay, let's talk. Also, Obsterics benefits, etc are expensive...

Some women should still be at home, bringing up their families in a good home environment. We'd probably have a better, less impatient society, if our children were being raised in a more traditional environment, where maternal love and *physical presence* was expressed, exhibited, and valued more highly than it is now!
You might want to come up to 2018. Companies are moving away from “maternity leave” and just giving all PTO (paid time off) or unpaid time off (which if is often covered by the Family Leave Act.).

Or are you suggested men shouldn’t have benefits to allow them to spend time with their new borns?

I’m assuming the rest is just trolling.
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Old 06-18-18, 06:46 PM
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Re: Feminist studies prof complains that "Women are underrepresented in higher-wage j

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry...b0568a88097feb

Good read about the realities of women in the workforce. Especially when they choose to have kids.

The article speculates the way we treat women who have children is a reason we are having less children.
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Old 06-19-18, 05:54 AM
  #72  
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Re: Feminist studies prof complains that "Women are underrepresented in higher-wage j

Originally Posted by Sdallnct View Post
You might want to come up to 2018. Companies are moving away from “maternity leave” and just giving all PTO (paid time off) or unpaid time off (which if is often covered by the Family Leave Act.).

Or are you suggested men shouldn’t have benefits to allow them to spend time with their new borns?

I’m assuming the rest is just trolling.

Given that there are now more women in college then men, I imagine the near future will have a lot of families where the father stays home to raise the children while the mother goes out to earn the money.
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Old 06-19-18, 05:59 AM
  #73  
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Re: Feminist studies prof complains that "Women are underrepresented in higher-wage j

http://www.dailylife.com.au/news-and...20-1motde.html

Working mothers are the most productive people in the workforce

April 21, 2015

We've got to change the way we think about working mothers.

"If you want something done, ask a busy person to do it. The more things you do, the more you can do."

That's a quote from actress Lucille Ball, the first woman in Hollywood to run a major TV studio and whose pregnancy caused a stir when it was written into the script of the second season of I Love Lucy and CBS forbid the use of the actual word "pregnant", deeming it too vulgar.

And to quote another working mum, Margaret Thatcher: "If you want something said, ask a man; if you want something done, ask a woman."

I'd like to conflate the two: If you want a job done, give it to a working mother.
Spoiler:

If there's one thing I've learnt about becoming a mother, it's that it involves constant trade-offs.

There are only so many hours in the day. And when you become a parent, there's even less of them!

Parenting is, for the large part, an exercise in time management. Baby is asleep. Will I have a cup of tea, or put on that load of washing? Will I ring my mother, or have a kip myself?

Down time disappears the moment you walk out of that birthing suite.

Economists say that scarcity creates value. It's only when something is scarce that we value it.

And it's that way with parenting. Children literally make your time more valuable, because there's less of it.

And if we want to get sentimental about it, children also increase your opportunity cost. At any point, you've got something else of high value you could otherwise be doing.

The goal of economics is to maximise the wellbeing of society through the efficient allocation of scarce resources. Parents become expert at maximising the wellbeing of their family.

We do this by making wise choices about what course of action will maximise the happiness of both our children and ourselves (hard to do on five hours' broken sleep!).

It's simply not possible to cram your old life into the new with a baby. Something has to hit the skids. The challenge is to make sure it's the low value stuff, like sanitising​ floors, replacing towels, and well, let's be honest, on some days, showering.

The trick is not to give up everything you used to enjoy, like eating out, reading books, and - stay with me here - WORK.

I can't believe I'm having to point this out in 2015, but women get mental stimulation, pride and a sense of achievement from working, not to mention money and the companionship of colleagues which can be so lacking when mothering at home.

Mothers beat themselves up about getting the right "work-life balance". But, in reality, multi-tasking is something mothers excel at.

It is odd then that working mothers are perceived so differently in the workplace.

Oh, she's off to get the sick kids again. Look, she's out the door again at 5 to go to daycare (no matter that she's just taken home three hours' of work to do when the kids' heads hit the pillow).

Employers traditionally view working mothers as far from the "ideal worker", who generally works five days a week.

But it's a myth.

A study by Ernst & Young has found women working part-time are the most productive in the workforce. Or rather, they waste the least amount of time at work of all workers, just 11.1 per cent compared to 14.5 per cent for the rest of the workforce. (Interestingly, they also wasted less time than their male part-time counterparts, who wasted 14.2 percent of their working time.)

Why watch cat videos on Facebook when you could be at home making home videos with your own cutie?

So don't underestimate us. Employers should appreciate mothers in the workforce. We've walked through fire. We've handled the demands of little tyrants who are noisier and less rational than you. We've got less time for petty office politics and standing by the water cooler.

We'll get in, we'll get out, and we'll get the job done. We've got something much more valuable to get home to.
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