Religion, Politics and World Events They make great dinner conversation, don't you think? plus Political Film

Billy Graham 1918-2018 [Merged]

Old 02-21-18, 09:22 AM
  #1  
DVD Talk Legend
Thread Starter
 
Vibiana's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Living in a van down by the river
Posts: 13,851
Billy Graham 1918-2018 [Merged]

I was taught to speak good of the dead.

Billy Graham is dead.

Good.
Vibiana is offline  
Old 02-21-18, 09:30 AM
  #2  
DVD Talk Limited Edition
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 5,171
Re: Billy Graham takes dirt nap

If Stephen Hawking is correct then Billy is going to be disappointing seeing the afterlife.
dom56 is offline  
Old 02-21-18, 09:32 AM
  #3  
DVD Talk Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Hail to the Redskins!
Posts: 24,747
Re: Billy Graham takes dirt nap

I feel like Vibs is not a fan of Billy Graham. Hey that rhymes!
DVD Josh is offline  
Old 02-21-18, 09:36 AM
  #4  
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
 
joeblow69's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Palm Springs
Posts: 8,863
Re: Billy Graham takes dirt nap

I can't remember, was there a specific reason we didn't like this guy? Or was he just a general fundy jerk?
joeblow69 is offline  
Old 02-21-18, 09:36 AM
  #5  
DVD Talk Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Hamilton, Ontario
Posts: 12,311
Re: Billy Graham takes dirt nap

Wrestling is fake. Why are you taking him so seriously?
Coral is offline  
Old 02-21-18, 09:39 AM
  #6  
DVD Talk Legend
 
cungar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 21,241
Re: Billy Graham takes dirt nap

Originally Posted by joeblow69 View Post
I can't remember, was there a specific reason we didn't like this guy? Or was he just a general fundy jerk?

He'll be missed by Christians and all religions. How about people?
cungar is offline  
Old 02-21-18, 09:51 AM
  #7  
DVD Talk Legend
Thread Starter
 
Vibiana's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Living in a van down by the river
Posts: 13,851
Re: Billy Graham takes dirt nap

Tar pits, 1
Dinosaurs, 0
Vibiana is offline  
Old 02-21-18, 09:52 AM
  #8  
DVD Talk Limited Edition
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: MA
Posts: 5,456
Re: Billy Graham takes dirt nap

Originally Posted by cungar View Post
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/...17112565420033

He'll be missed by Christians and all religions. How about people?
not many people will miss him...
jpcamb is offline  
Old 02-21-18, 10:07 AM
  #9  
DVD Talk Platinum Edition
 
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 3,348
Re: Billy Graham takes dirt nap

I didn't even know he was still alive.
WCChiCubsFan is offline  
Old 02-21-18, 10:16 AM
  #10  
DVD Talk Limited Edition
 
Red Hood's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 5,284
Re: Billy Graham takes dirt nap

This is taken from Wikipedia, which of course is not 100% accurate, but shows glimpses on why this guy was like all other right wing, hypocritical, chauvinistic evangelical Christians. His lead the way to his asshole son, who is trying be more of a dick than his papa.

Controversy
Discussion of Jews with President Nixon

During the Watergate affair, there were suggestions that Graham had agreed with many of President Richard Nixon's antisemitic opinions, but he denied them and stressed his efforts to build bridges to the Jewish community. In 2002, the controversy was renewed when declassified "Richard Nixon tapes" confirmed remarks made by Graham to Nixon three decades earlier.[97] Captured on the tapes, Graham agreed with Nixon that Jews control the American media, calling it a "stranglehold" during a 1972 conversation with Nixon.[98]

When the tapes were made public, Graham apologized[99][100] and said, "Although I have no memory of the occasion, I deeply regret comments I apparently made in an Oval Office conversation with President Nixon ... some 30 years ago. ... They do not reflect my views and I sincerely apologize for any offense caused by the remarks."[101] According to Newsweek magazine, "[T]he shock of the revelation was magnified because of Graham's longtime support of Israel and his refusal to join in calls for conversion of the Jews."[100]

In 2009, more Nixon tapes were released, in which Graham is heard in a 1973 conversation with Nixon referring to Jews and "the synagogue of Satan". A spokesman for Graham said that Graham has never been an antisemite and that the comparison (in accord with the context of the quotation in the Book of Revelation[102]) was directed specifically at those claiming to be Jews, but not holding to traditional Jewish values.[103]
Vietnam War

A secret thirteen-page letter (released to the public by the National Archives and Records Administration in April 1989) was written on April 15, 1969, by White House Chaplain Billy Graham to U.S. President Richard Nixon in which Graham encouraged Nixon to utilize a military campaign to bomb dikes across North Vietnam should the Paris Peace Talks fail to reach a negotiated settlement of the U.S. war in Southeast Asia. Graham had developed his dike bombing strategy during an earlier business meeting in Bangkok with his evangelists assigned to Southern Vietnam.[104] Graham later told Nixon that this proposed escalation of the war in Southeast Asia was a plan that "could overnight destroy the economy of North Vietnam" by employing "tens of thousands of North Vietnamese defectors to bomb and invade the North."[105]

Estimates from the Nixon administration concluded that such a military aerial bombing campaign against dikes in North Vietnam would have killed approximately one million North Vietnamese.[104]
Ecumenism

After a 1957 crusade in New York, some more fundamentalist Protestant Christians criticized Graham for his ecumenism, even calling him "Antichrist".[106]

Graham expressed inclusivist views, suggesting that people without explicit faith in Jesus can be saved. In a 1997 interview with Robert Schuller, Graham said

I think that everybody that loves or knows Christ, whether they are conscious of it or not, they are members of the body of Christ... [God] is calling people out of the world for his name, whether they come from the Muslim world, or the Buddhist world or the non-believing world, they are members of the Body of Christ because they have been called by God. They may not know the name of Jesus but they know in their hearts that they need something they do not have, and they turn to the only light they have, and I think that they are saved and they are going to be with us in heaven.[107]

Iain Murray, writing from a conservative Protestant standpoint, argues that "Graham's concessions are sad words from one who once spoke on the basis of biblical certainties."[108]
Views on women

In 1970, Graham stated that feminism was "an echo of our overall philosophy of permissiveness" and that women did not want to be "competitive juggernauts pitted against male chauvinists." He further stated that the role of wife, mother, and homemaker was the destiny of "real womanhood" according to the Judeo-Christian ethic.[109] He was criticized by feminists as being part of a backlash for these statements.[110]

Graham was well known for his practice of not spending time alone with any woman other than his wife. This has become known as the Billy Graham rule.[111]
Red Hood is offline  
Old 02-21-18, 10:19 AM
  #11  
DVD Talk Hero
 
JasonF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 39,459
Re: Billy Graham takes dirt nap

Billy Graham had some definite issues, but he was nowhere near the walking pile of garbage that his son Franklin is.
JasonF is offline  
Old 02-21-18, 10:21 AM
  #12  
DVD Talk Hero
 
Why So Blu?'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 30,348
Re: Billy Graham takes dirt nap

Graham was well known for his practice of not spending time alone with any woman other than his wife. This has become known as the Billy Graham rule.

So that's where Pence gets it from.
Why So Blu? is offline  
Old 02-21-18, 10:35 AM
  #13  
DVD Talk Limited Edition
 
Red Hood's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 5,284
Re: Billy Graham takes dirt nap

Originally Posted by JasonF View Post
Billy Graham had some definite issues, but he was nowhere near the walking pile of garbage that his son Franklin is.
I believe the lack of Twitter and other social media when Billy was on top helped him hide the idiocies that he said in private and that he son spews these days.

Funny story: when I was kid, I started hearing around that Billy Graham was coming to town. I got excited cause I though it was this Billy Graham



My disappointment was big when we got this

Red Hood is offline  
Old 02-21-18, 10:48 AM
  #14  
DVD Talk Legend
 
Nick Danger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Albuquerque
Posts: 22,338
Re: Billy Graham takes dirt nap

I wasn't aware of why Vibs dislikes Billy Graham. I did a quick internet search.

I discovered that he said that AIDS was Gods judgement on gays. Then a mere two weeks later, he retracted that and apologized.

Then I found this demur on HuffPo. A former employee doesn't believe the statements from Billy Graham in the last decade are consistent with the way he lived the rest of his life.

HE BLOG 07/31/2012 02:18 pm ET Updated Sep 30, 2012
Billy Graham Is Not an Anti-Gay Bigot
By Steve Knight

Let me tell you about Billy Graham, just as he is, because based on what I experienced working for the man for six years, two statements issued under his name last week (and one earlier this year) significantly collide with the well-established values of this great humble faith leader.

The first statement I am referring to is the fundraising letter for the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association (BGEA) that quoted Billy's late wife Ruth as saying, "If God doesn't punish America, He'll have to apologize to Sodom and Gomorrah." The letter goes on, in Billy's alleged words, "My heart aches for America and its deceived people."

The second statement is Billy's statement of support for "my good friends [Chick-fil-A founder] Truett Cathy and his son Dan Cathy ... for their strong stand for the Christian faith." The statement actually continues, in Billy's voice, to say, "As the son of a dairy farmer who milked many a cow, I plan to 'Eat Mor Chikin' and show my support by visiting Chick-fil-A next Wednesday." (Update: BGEA issued a revised statement clarifying that Billy now "plans to enjoy his chicken at home.")

The earlier statement was a full-page ad for Amendment One and the North Carolina state constitutional amendment stating the only valid and recognized domestic legal union to be "marriage between one man and one woman." The ad was emblazoned with Mr. Graham's distinguished elderly visage, and appeared in 14 North Carolina newspapers in advance of the May 8 vote that established the amendment as N.C. state law.

At the time of the Amendment One ad, official Billy biographer William Martin told the Associated Press that he believed the words were not those of Billy's son and current BGEA President Franklin Graham: "Franklin has been more outspoken about it, but it sounds as if this is Mr. Graham expressing his own will."

I believe Martin was wrong then, and I'm even more convinced now. Mr. Graham had never made political statements like this in the 62-year history of the ministry, and BGEA's evangelistic crusades have never partnered with corporations like Chick-fil-A, although they easily could have. (Evangelist Luis Palau, a disciple of Billy's, uses corporate sponsors for all of his city-wide events these days.) Now, to have three of these statements come out in the past three months -- and a very obvious commercial for a fast-food chain -- causes me to wonder if this trickle will turn into a flood, right at the end of Billy's life.

When you see an ad such as the pro-Amendment One ad (designed and placed by BGEA representatives), or read a BGEA fundraising letter, or a personal statement issued on official BGEA letterhead, you might question how much Billy Graham has to do with any of these things anymore. I worked for the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association for six years (2000-2006), and I know something of the inner machinations of this multimillion-dollar ministry.

My concern is that here's how things like this continue to work: Franklin Graham (or Franklin and his sister Anne Graham Lotz) have an agenda (in all three of these cases, "traditional marriage"), they get a BGEA copywriter to draft the text, then a BGEA graphic designer does the layout (in the case of the ad), Franklin approves the copy and/or design, then Franklin drives out to Little Piney Cove (Billy's cabin home outside of Asheville, N.C.) and holds the piece of paper in front of Billy and asks, "Daddy, can we publish this?" And Billy nods (or whatever he's capable of doing at this point in his life), and Franklin goes back and publishes this stuff with his good father's name all over it.

Billy Graham is 93 years old, in the advanced stages of Parkinson's disease (among a host of other age-related ailments). He's been having fluid drained from his brain on a regular basis for over a decade. When I worked for BGEA and Mr. Graham was still leading evangelistic crusades around the country, it was well-known that all of his sermons, articles, letters and books were ghostwritten -- and had been for quite some time.

There's also a track record in recent years of Franklin Graham redirecting his father (and mother) against their own wishes, the most gross example being Franklin's decision to move his parents burial site from their family home in the North Carolina mountains -- where Ruth Graham had clearly wished to be buried, alongside her husband -- to the Charlotte headquarters of the BGEA. It's been suggested that Franklin came to an agreement with the city of Charlotte in order to get a sweet deal on prime real estate (on Billy Graham Parkway, no less) by promising to not only bring jobs to the area but also tourists. And what better way to do that than to build a museum (the Billy Graham Library) and a burial shrine where the faithful can come and pay their respects for years to come. (Ruth Graham died in 2007, and was buried at the Charlotte site, in what is known as the "Prayer Garden.")

The tragedy of what's happening right now is that Billy Graham long ago made a personal commitment to avoid picking political sides, especially since being tricked by Richard Nixon in the 1970s in a case that led to a public apology in 2002 after tapes of their private Oval Office conversations were released. Up until this point, the Nixon debacle was arguably Billy's only political misstep, but with each new anti-gay statement put out by BGEA his legacy is being tarnished.

What is perhaps saddest about all of this is that I would not object if Billy Graham wanted to make political interventions per se, in the same humility that he developed over decades of getting to know the breadth of Christianity in this country as well as the vibrant diversity of cultural traditions around the world, and the generosity of spirit that is apparent in previous statements he has made late in his life that seemed to imply open-mindedness, a valuing of other perspectives and a willingness to admit he might be wrong.

If he were to make these kinds of interventions, I certainly would hope that he might focus on the more obvious and pressing sins of our nation -- he could start with two unnecessary wars wrapped in an exploitation of Christian ethics, government-sponsored assassinations, the abuse of the poor, the perpetuation of racial prejudice in politics, the degradation of God's creation by industry, government and citizens alike, and the culture of dehumanization in political discourse -- rather than allowing himself to become human product placement for a fast food company.

I sincerely fear that Billy has become a puppet for the political persuasions of Franklin Graham (and to a lesser extent, Anne Graham Lotz). I hope people on all sides of this debate will at least stop and question why Billy Graham, elder statesman and "America's Pastor," has been turned into a shill for chicken sandwiches.
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/steve...b_1716448.html

Graham was on the right side of racial segregation, and made friends with MLK in Montgomery. He was on the wrong side of allowing a Catholic be elected president, but he seems to have withdrawn his opposition when Kennedy made his statement about foreign influence on the presidency. He refused to join the Moral Majority. He supported Nixon and the war in Vietnam. He seems to have generally been a good guy.
Nick Danger is offline  
Old 02-21-18, 11:14 AM
  #15  
DVD Talk Hero
 
inri222's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 46,871
Re: Billy Graham takes dirt nap

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Is it too soon too talk about Billy Graham's homophobia?<br><br>About the monster of a racist, sexist son he raised? <br><br>About the Graham family's role in breaking up countless relationships between queer kids &amp; their Christian parents?<br><br>It sure isn't, praise Jesus.</p>&mdash; Steven Thrasher (@thrasherxy) <a href="https://twitter.com/thrasherxy/status/966321603188543489?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">February 21, 2018</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
inri222 is offline  
Old 02-21-18, 11:16 AM
  #16  
DVD Talk Hero
 
inri222's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 46,871
Re: Billy Graham takes dirt nap

inri222 is offline  
Old 02-21-18, 11:20 AM
  #17  
DVD Talk Hero
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Madison, WI ("77 square miles surrounded by reality")
Posts: 30,004
Re: Billy Graham takes dirt nap

Originally Posted by dom56 View Post
If Stephen Hawking is correct then Billy is going to be disappointing seeing the afterlife.
Hawking is wrong. Graham won't be seeing anything. No longer existing, he can't be disappointed.

In a way he's lucky. No one can tell him "I told you so."
movielib is offline  
Old 02-21-18, 11:21 AM
  #18  
DVD Talk Hero
 
inri222's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 46,871
Re: Billy Graham takes dirt nap

“A lot of Jews are great friends of mine. They swarm around me and are friendly to me. Because they know that I am friendly to Israel and so forth. But they don’t know how I really feel about what they’re doing to this country, and I have no power and no way to handle them.”

- Billy Graham speaking to Richard Nixon
inri222 is offline  
Old 02-21-18, 11:23 AM
  #19  
DVD Talk Legend
 
Nick Danger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Albuquerque
Posts: 22,338
Re: Billy Graham takes dirt nap

Originally Posted by inri222 View Post
But by 1952 he refused to segregate his revivals.
Nick Danger is offline  
Old 02-21-18, 11:26 AM
  #20  
DVD Talk Limited Edition
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Colorado
Posts: 5,614
Re: Billy Graham takes dirt nap

Can always count on dvdtalk to stay classy!
cpgator is offline  
Old 02-21-18, 11:28 AM
  #21  
DVD Talk Legend
 
Nick Danger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Albuquerque
Posts: 22,338
Re: Billy Graham takes dirt nap

Originally Posted by inri222 View Post
“A lot of Jews are great friends of mine. They swarm around me and are friendly to me. Because they know that I am friendly to Israel and so forth. But they don’t know how I really feel about what they’re doing to this country, and I have no power and no way to handle them.”

- Billy Graham speaking to Richard Nixon
That was a big deal because Jews believed that he was their 'friend among the evangelicals'.

I don't have a dog in this fight. But Billy Graham seems to have been a lot better than Bob Jones or Jerry Fallwell, or than Franklin Graham.
Nick Danger is offline  
Old 02-21-18, 11:31 AM
  #22  
DVD Talk Limited Edition
 
Red Hood's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 5,284
Re: Billy Graham takes dirt nap

Originally Posted by cpgator View Post
Can always count on dvdtalk to stay classy!
You want us to be hypocritical, like Billy and his family?
Red Hood is offline  
Old 02-21-18, 11:35 AM
  #23  
DVD Talk Legend
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: MA
Posts: 12,042
Re: Billy Graham takes dirt nap

Good riddance. I hope he's burning in the worst version of Hell he imagined for gays.
Noonan is offline  
Old 02-21-18, 11:41 AM
  #24  
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
 
joeblow69's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Palm Springs
Posts: 8,863
Re: Billy Graham takes dirt nap

Originally Posted by cpgator View Post
Can always count on dvdtalk to stay classy!
When I was in jr high, and had a friend who had died unexpectedly, one of the counselors stressed that it is important to not put the dead up on a pedestal. Remember them for who they were, not who you wanted them to be.

Sounds like this guy was a real shit stain. There's no reason to sugar coat it. It's not like his family is reading this forum.
joeblow69 is offline  
Old 02-21-18, 11:45 AM
  #25  
Moderator
 
wendersfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Nuova Repubblica di Salò
Posts: 32,741
Re: Billy Graham takes dirt nap

Originally Posted by Nick Danger View Post
But by 1952 he refused to segregate his revivals.
So for 16 years of his adult life he was a racist and segregationist, and for the final 66 he wasn't.
wendersfan is online now  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.