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Mass Shootings [Merged]

Old 02-23-18, 12:12 PM
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Re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

Originally Posted by dsa_shea View Post
The problem is that there are situations where the "good guy" became the bad guy in very little time. Everyday stress, personal and financial problems, dealing with others that seemingly exist just to make your life hell are all reasons as to why someone might do something that people never imagined from them. I have had some situations close to me where you think the person is ok and then they go on to do something unimaginable because they had something happen to them and they felt wronged.
Exactly. We keep hearing about "law abiding gun owners", but in most of these shootings (including Parkland) the perp was a "law abiding gun owner" right up until the point he pulled the trigger.
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Old 02-23-18, 12:14 PM
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Re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

He was only “law abiding” in the sense that his community shielded him from entering the criminal justice system.

Last edited by Mabuse; 02-23-18 at 12:21 PM.
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Old 02-23-18, 12:25 PM
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Re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

Originally Posted by Groucho View Post
This is part of the issue. The NRA has convinced the country that guns are a "solution" to problems, so people feel like they have to carry them around and use them as a first resort. It doesn't make national headlines, but local papers are full of everyday arguments that turned into deadly murders because one of the people involved was a "good guy with a gun".
You make a compelling argument for sure, yet the murder rate has been declining over the years while gun sales and the number of Americans carrying concealed weapons have skyrocketed, which is an interesting correlation.

A majority of these murders you mention are not committed by "good guys with guns" but by convicted felons with guns who should not have firearms to begin with (which is likely a symptom of how heavily armed this nation is).
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Old 02-23-18, 12:33 PM
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Re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

Originally Posted by Groucho View Post
This is part of the issue. The NRA has convinced the country that guns are a "solution" to problems, so people feel like they have to carry them around and use them as a first resort. It doesn't make national headlines, but local papers are full of everyday arguments that turned into deadly murders because one of the people involved was a "good guy with a gun".

I'd say it's your culture and history that have done the convincing. The NRA is just making sure that doesn't change.

I say this after every shooting. All the gun control talk is missing the root cause of the problem and any new measure will simply be a band-aid until you address the gun culture issue. Unfortunately, since it's uniquely American, good luck changing that...
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Old 02-23-18, 12:38 PM
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Re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

Originally Posted by Mabuse View Post
My magnum opus
Yea...I’m going to disgree. And when I say disagree I mean disagree that even if what you say is true, it’s not a acceptable excuse for our kids to be shot.

The evidence is more than mounting. We have more mass shooting because we have more guns.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile....ional.amp.html

I’m not sure why this is even a question. Are there more car accidents in cities or in rural area? Cities. Why? More cars.

If someone wants to claim “the US has a gun culture that is unique in the world” ok, great. Today as we have grown and changed are we not willing to change our gun culture of allowing our kids to be shot? Do we want the “gun culture” of mass shootings? How is that a good culture?

This seems a lot easier than when we changed our “culture” of the Jim Crow laws. Or equal rights for women.
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Old 02-23-18, 12:39 PM
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Re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

You’re not disagreeing at all. You seem to be in agreement. My article really isn’t an opinion, it’s a statement of fact. So it can’t really be disagreed with. We have more than just a gun culture, we have a gun foundation.

Changing it will be hard. Definitely an equal of ending Jim Crow and civil rights. Right now there isn’t even a lobby group that can call itself the opponent of the NRA. I’d say that would be a place to start.

Last edited by Mabuse; 02-23-18 at 12:50 PM. Reason: It’s
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Old 02-23-18, 12:44 PM
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Re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

I didn't see this posted yet. It's a Time article about how/why the AR-15 became popular:

http://time.com/5162573/ar-15-history-mass-shootings/
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Old 02-23-18, 01:03 PM
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Re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

Originally Posted by Mabuse View Post
He was only “law abiding” in the sense that his community shielded him from entering the criminal justice system.
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Old 02-23-18, 01:06 PM
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Re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

Originally Posted by GoVegan View Post
I didn't see this posted yet. It's a Time article about how/why the AR-15 became popular:

http://time.com/5162573/ar-15-history-mass-shootings/


Iinteresting that the gun debate itself and the assault rifle ban are credited with increasing interest in the weapon. So it’s exactly like Prohibition. When America came out of Prohibition we had MORE citizens that regularly drank than we did before. Baning booze had INCREASED the demand for it. Baning these guns increased demand. We had more assault weapons after the ban than before.

Very interesting. If scarcity and bans drive consumption then maybe we do need more guns.
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Old 02-23-18, 01:16 PM
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Re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

Originally Posted by JimRochester View Post
As far as arming the teachers, don't remember where I posted this. The local police are stressing that in these schools there are former military, current national guard, retired law enforcement, and teachers who work part time for the sheriffs in the summer. They would be the first ones given the tools, training and permission to carry much like air marshals and pilots after 9/11.
Originally Posted by Sdallnct View Post
Get what your saying, but those are bad examples. The armed pilot is never to leave the cockpit. He is protecting the plane being used as a missile. Not prtecting the passengers.

The Air Marshal has no other role they are just sitting with the passengers.

I don't like armed guards on campus, roaming the halls or at certain checkpoints. But that is proabably a reality. But in the classroom? Sitting with the kids? Or a teacher with a gun strapped to their waist? I find Horrifying.
For all the people screaming the sky is falling, I'll answer all of the above at once.

First SD, you're from Texas. Half the people you see in a day have a gun strapped to their waist.

This is what the WNY sheriff's association is proposing this was not my idea.

The teachers they are looking to arm are already armed in another capacity. Former / current military, former / current law enforcement. So any "what if" scenario is already a possibility. It's not like they are taking 22 year old Miss Suzie Nightclub, handing her a piece and saying go shoot the bad guy. In fact one of the schools I do business with, the transportation supervisor is ex-military and a current national guardsman. We already gave him a gun that he's been carrying for this country for 20 plus years. All they would be doing is giving him permission to have that firearm on school grounds which he cannot legally do right now. My question is how they secure it throughout the day which would protect it from theft yet make it available in an emergency.
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Old 02-23-18, 01:17 PM
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Re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

Originally Posted by Mabuse View Post
He was only “law abiding” in the sense that his community shielded him from entering the criminal justice system.
My point, which you missed, is that you will now have to worry about other law abiding citizens who have just run into their moment and don't know how to deal with it. Teaching is a very stressful profession and in no way should teachers that already don't feel comfortable with carrying a gun be made to feel like they should. Look at the number of Border Patrol shooting deaths and suicides in the past ten years. Some people just hit a moment in their life and tragedy follows. Up until then that moment they were law abiding citizens that seemed normal. Maybe you will now understand.
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Old 02-23-18, 01:18 PM
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Re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

We will never be able to remove the gun culture from America, but maybe it could be changed. That article points out that a great deal of gun owners buy guns because they don’t trust the police. Maybe a better relationship between local law enforcement and gun owners would help. Mandatory events where you shoot together. Gun Clubs that support law enforcement. Inclusive clubs.
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Old 02-23-18, 01:18 PM
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Re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

Originally Posted by Mabuse View Post
He was only “law abiding” in the sense that his community shielded him from entering the criminal justice system.
Growing up in White Suburbia, there are always a few kids we all go to school with that are weird from day one, and they are loners (or have a few freak friends). The problem is a lot of these parents are either naïve about them being outcasts or they just plain stupid that they miss all of the signs. I could go through my yearbook and there are about 3-4 guys I could point out that it wouldn't have surprised me if they shot up our school back in the day.

Those guys from Columbine are exhibit A, as their parents just totally missing that these guys were a threat. My parents always knew what I was up to, who I was hanging out, as I didn't get away with a lot as a kid. But I have friends with parents that are out in left field and have NO clue what their kids are doing behind closed doors. I had 2 friends who were heavily into drugs in High School and their parents either looked the other way, or they were just that foolish. Both them of them ended up going to rehab as they were arrested for either possession or getting in an accident, but their parents had no idea they were total junkies.

Now I am not saying this is the root problem of these school shooting, but I go back to White Suburban Males are ALL doing these school shootings, so there is some pattern here.
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Old 02-23-18, 01:20 PM
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Re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

Originally Posted by dsa_shea View Post
My point, which you missed, is that you will now have to worry about other law abiding citizens who have just run into their moment and don't know how to deal with it. Teaching is a very stressful profession and in no way should teachers that already don't feel comfortable with carrying a gun be made to feel like they should. Look at the number of Border Patrol shooting deaths and suicides in the past ten years. Some people just hit a moment in their life and tragedy follows. Up until then that moment they were law abiding citizens that seemed normal. Maybe you will now understand.
I don’t disagree with your point.
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Old 02-23-18, 01:22 PM
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Re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

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Old 02-23-18, 01:23 PM
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Re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

Originally Posted by mcnabb View Post
Growing up in White Suburbia, there are always a few kids we all go to school with that are weird from day one, and they are loners (or have a few freak friends). The problem is a lot of these parents are either naïve about them being outcasts or they just plain stupid that they miss all of the signs. I could go through my yearbook and there are about 3-4 guys I could point out that it wouldn't have surprised me if they shot up our school back in the day.

Those guys from Columbine are exhibit A, as their parents just totally missing that these guys were a threat. My parents always knew what I was up to, who I was hanging out, as I didn't get away with a lot as a kid. But I have friends with parents that are out in left field and have NO clue what their kids are doing behind closed doors. I had 2 friends who were heavily into drugs in High School and their parents either looked the other way, or they were just that foolish. Both them of them ended up going to rehab as they were arrested for either possession or getting in an accident, but their parents had no idea they were total junkies.

Now I am not saying this is the root problem of these school shooting, but I go back to White Suburban Males are ALL doing these school shootings, so there is some pattern here.
You don’t have to tell me bro. Our city just had a 19 year old murder a classmate. And only now do all the stories of how weird he was surface. My MIL was his 4th grade teacher and she’s like, “ he was a little off.”
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Old 02-23-18, 01:26 PM
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Re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

Originally Posted by Mabuse View Post
Baning these guns increased demand. We had more assault weapons after the ban than before.

Very interesting. If scarcity and bans drive consumption then maybe we do need more guns.
If the argument is that demand increases once a ban is rescinded, an alternate solution would be to not rescind the ban.
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Old 02-23-18, 01:28 PM
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Re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

Originally Posted by Mabuse View Post
Iinteresting that the gun debate itself and the assault rifle ban are credited with increasing interest in the weapon. So it’s exactly like Prohibition. When America came out of Prohibition we had MORE citizens that regularly drank than we did before. Baning booze had INCREASED the demand for it. Baning these guns increased demand. We had more assault weapons after the ban than before.

Very interesting. If scarcity and bans drive consumption then maybe we do need more guns.
That's kind of a skewed reading of that article. The gun control debate (which arose after a school shooting) was credited with increasing awareness of the legality of semi-automatic rifles, which increased demand. Everyone is aware of them now.

And I can't agree with the Prohibition comparison. It might be mildly similar, but for one, the assault weapon ban didn't lead to an increase in crime during the ban.
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Old 02-23-18, 01:35 PM
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Re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

Originally Posted by Mabuse View Post
You don’t have to tell me bro. Our city just had a 19 year old murder a classmate. And only now do all the stories of how weird he was surface. My MIL was his 4th grade teacher and she’s like, “ he was a little off.”
There was one kid I went to Elementary School with and he always talked about how he wanted to be a Scientist and learn how to 'build bombs' when he was older. This was in the 80's (before school shootings were a news story) but EVERYONE knew he was weird and something was off about him. I found out later he 'mysteriously' died after High School, but the rumor is he committed suicide. But if you asked anyone who knew him, they weren't surprised.
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Old 02-23-18, 01:36 PM
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Re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

Originally Posted by GoVegan View Post
I didn't see this posted yet. It's a Time article about how/why the AR-15 became popular:

http://time.com/5162573/ar-15-history-mass-shootings/
People have been fascinated and emulated military equipment and garb for years and years. The Jeep and Hummer are civilian versions military vehicles. The colt 1911 was a great sidearm but it's popularity coincided with the military using it. When they switched to the Berretta popularity of the 1911 fell off and the Berretta picked up even though there were far superior 9mm handguns. Camouflage is popular with more than hunters.
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Old 02-23-18, 02:14 PM
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Re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

Originally Posted by JimRochester View Post
For all the people screaming the sky is falling, I'll answer all of the above at once.

First SD, you're from Texas. Half the people you see in a day have a gun strapped to their waist.

This is what the WNY sheriff's association is proposing this was not my idea.

The teachers they are looking to arm are already armed in another capacity. Former / current military, former / current law enforcement. So any "what if" scenario is already a possibility. It's not like they are taking 22 year old Miss Suzie Nightclub, handing her a piece and saying go shoot the bad guy. In fact one of the schools I do business with, the transportation supervisor is ex-military and a current national guardsman. We already gave him a gun that he's been carrying for this country for 20 plus years. All they would be doing is giving him permission to have that firearm on school grounds which he cannot legally do right now. My question is how they secure it throughout the day which would protect it from theft yet make it available in an emergency.
What are you talking about? I’ve lived in Texas my entire adult life (less 5 years in Phoenix). I travel for work and spent months in Dallas (where I live), Houston, Austin, Fort Worth, San Antonio, El Paso, Midland, to name a few.

I’ve never seen a non-uniformed person with a gun strapped to their hip. Not once.

I think this is the REAL gun culture. It is a fantasy. It is a made up cartoonish belief. Like others have said, it’s the “Rambo-effect”.

It’s like the people who are rushing to buy bump stocks. They never wanted one before. Don’t have a need for one. But “by golly” I better grab one now.

Look it’s not just about the gun in the classroom in and of itself. I wouldn’t want my kids seeing that day in, day out. It shouldn’t normalized that people need to have a gun strapped to their hip to live a normal life.

Again, it’s horrifying.
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Old 02-23-18, 02:21 PM
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Re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

Speaking of guns on hips. A month or so ago my young son and I were running into Wal Mart for groceries and as we were walking in a husband and wife were walking out and the husband had a big ol' gun strapped to his side in a holster. My sons eyes got a bit big and he said, "We don't really need to go shop dad..." He really wasn't a fan of seeing that.

We did shop without incident.
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Old 02-23-18, 02:25 PM
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Re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

Originally Posted by GoVegan View Post
I didn't see this posted yet. It's a Time article about how/why the AR-15 became popular:

http://time.com/5162573/ar-15-history-mass-shootings/
Interesting how the article doesn't mention the tens of thousands of surplus WWII-era M1 carbine or M1 Garand semi-auto rifles that for decades were sold to the public by the U.S. government well before the 1980s. I guess the fact that they look similar to hunting rifles and have been used in few mass shootings makes them less of a target for civilian disarmament proponents.
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Old 02-23-18, 02:26 PM
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Re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

Originally Posted by Sdallnct View Post
What are you talking about? I’ve lived in Texas my entire adult life (less 5 years in Phoenix). I travel for work and spent months in Dallas (where I live), Houston, Austin, Fort Worth, San Antonio, El Paso, Midland, to name a few.

I’ve never seen a non-uniformed person with a gun strapped to their hip. Not once.

I think this is the REAL gun culture. It is a fantasy. It is a made up cartoonish belief. Like others have said, it’s the “Rambo-effect”.

It’s like the people who are rushing to buy bump stocks. They never wanted one before. Don’t have a need for one. But “by golly” I better grab one now.

Look it’s not just about the gun in the classroom in and of itself. I wouldn’t want my kids seeing that day in, day out. It shouldn’t normalized that people need to have a gun strapped to their hip to live a normal life.

Again, it’s horrifying.
Just because you don't see it, doesn't mean its not there. Up until last year Open Cary was illegal in Texas. Now its only legal if you have a CCW. (imo)There's no point in open carrying if you have to have your CCW to do it.
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Old 02-23-18, 02:30 PM
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Re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

Originally Posted by Sdallnct View Post
What are you talking about? I’ve lived in Texas my entire adult life (less 5 years in Phoenix). I travel for work and spent months in Dallas (where I live), Houston, Austin, Fort Worth, San Antonio, El Paso, Midland, to name a few.

I’ve never seen a non-uniformed person with a gun strapped to their hip. Not once.
I think he picked the wrong state for his example. Open carry of a handgun surprisingly wasn't legal in Texas until 2016, even now it requires a concealed handgun license.

I've lived in Western states my whole live, and I've seen numerous instances of handguns openly carried in holsters in rural areas. I've only seen it a few times in urban and suburban areas.
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