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Mass Shootings [Merged]

Old 02-23-18, 08:27 AM
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Re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

Originally Posted by wendersfan View Post
The problem with an argument like this is that you're accepting the idea of arming teachers as something worth discussing, and debating the efficacy of it as a solution, when, instead, the proper response is, "there's no fucking way we're going to be a society that arms teachers."
Itís being discussed and championed by the President. We have to take it seriously.
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Old 02-23-18, 08:29 AM
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Re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

Originally Posted by gryffinmaster View Post
Itís being discussed and championed by the President. We have to take it seriously.
Exactly. Itís another one of his stupid ideas that we have to take seriously because heís the goddamn President.
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Old 02-23-18, 08:30 AM
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Re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

Originally Posted by JimRochester View Post
Well I guess we have our answer. The school resource officer who was supposed to go in and engage, positioned himself outside in an apparently defensive position and stayed there for 4 minutes while the shooting was going on inside. He has wisely resigned although he'll be the subject of many lawsuits.
So whatís the over/under on this school resource officer offing himself in the next few days?
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Old 02-23-18, 08:58 AM
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Re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

Originally Posted by gryffinmaster View Post
Itís being discussed and championed by the President. We have to take it seriously.
jfc
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Old 02-23-18, 09:06 AM
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Re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

Fla. shooting survivor's mother: We have received death threats

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefi...received-death
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Old 02-23-18, 09:08 AM
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Re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

With the amount that kid has been in the spotlight, I'm not surprised.
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Old 02-23-18, 09:11 AM
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Re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

Yeah unfortunately the survivors and parents seem to always get death threats from people claiming they are paid actors or part of some liberal plot.
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Old 02-23-18, 09:12 AM
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Re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

Several of my FB friends are posting we have a "culture issue" not a gun issue. And when "I" went to school we had " values" and "respect".

So my question is, why does our "cultural issues", "values" and "respect" ONLY apply to guns?

Using that arguement we should make all drugs legal. After all it's not the drugs, its our culture, our values, our lack of respect that is the real issue.

Using that logic, we should remove all regulation regarding alcohol. No more laws against drinking and driving, it's ok to serve an intoxicted person, lower the age back to 18. After all it is not the alcohol, it is the culture, the values, the lack of respect.
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Old 02-23-18, 09:17 AM
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Re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

They're correct to a degree. Other countries have much looser laws on things like alcohol than we do yet they have a fraction of the alcohol related deaths/attacks.
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Old 02-23-18, 09:32 AM
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Re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

It is a cultural issue and a values issue. The problem is that many people belong to a culture that fetishizes guns as some sort of sacred object. A culture that values their right to own a particular tool above the objective loss of life it causes.
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Old 02-23-18, 09:55 AM
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Re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

Kids around the world play the same video games, watch the same movies and TV shows, and listen to the same music. No mass shootings there.

Mental illness rates are the same across the western world.

As far as religion, Europe is FAR more indifferent to religion, and with a higher rate of atheism, compared to the USA. They don't have a mass shooting problem.

Obviously the problem is movies, video games, music, mental illness, and lack of Christian values.
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Old 02-23-18, 10:02 AM
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Re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

Link

"We have to look at the internet because a lot of bad things are happening to young kids and young minds and their minds are being formed, and we have to do something about maybe what they're seeing and how they're seeing it," said Trump. "And also video games. I'm hearing more and more people say the level of violence in video games is really shaping young people's thoughts. And you go one further step and that's the movies. … Maybe they have to put a rating system for that."
If only there were some kind of ratings system in place for movies and video games.
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Old 02-23-18, 10:07 AM
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Re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

Watching CPAC speech. Trump appears to be for all guns all the time. Wants military bases non longer to be gun free zones. Concealed carry in schools. And all schools to be hardened.
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Old 02-23-18, 10:09 AM
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Re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

Originally Posted by Sdallnct View Post
Several of my FB friends are posting we have a "culture issue" not a gun issue. And when "I" went to school we had " values" and "respect".

So my question is, why does our "cultural issues", "values" and "respect" ONLY apply to guns?

Using that arguement we should make all drugs legal. After all it's not the drugs, its our culture, our values, our lack of respect that is the real issue.

Using that logic, we should remove all regulation regarding alcohol. No more laws against drinking and driving, it's ok to serve an intoxicted person, lower the age back to 18. After all it is not the alcohol, it is the culture, the values, the lack of respect.
It is a culture issue. And itís driven by our legal precedents. Do I need to drag my greatest hits out again? Iíve written a long piece about this and posted it in almost every thread about gun violence weíve had.
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Old 02-23-18, 10:11 AM
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Re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

Originally Posted by Noonan View Post
They're correct to a degree. Other countries have much looser laws on things like alcohol than we do yet they have a fraction of the alcohol related deaths/attacks.
No, they only talk about in the context of guns. I was using other example that should logically follow if we are using culture and values as an excuse for kids being shoot at school and other mass shootings.
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Old 02-23-18, 10:12 AM
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Re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

If we want to address the culture (and believe me I don't think it's the main problem, just one of the symptons), but the elephant in the room is that pretty much all of these school shootings happen by Teenage White Males in Suburbia. You don't see girls shooting up schools, you never see Black's shooting up schools in Urban Areas, it's strictly a Suburban White Male Problem. I don't have an answer but whenever I hear about a school shooting, the first thought that comes to mind is White Male Teenager.
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Old 02-23-18, 10:12 AM
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Re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

Originally Posted by BDB View Post
Watching CPAC speech. Trump appears to be for all guns all the time. Wants military bases non longer to be gun free zones. Concealed carry in schools. And all schools to be hardened.
I didn't even try. It's one thing to see a gun nut spout that shit. Having a phony who couldn't care less about guns who's only doing it for political cover is even more repulsive.
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Old 02-23-18, 10:14 AM
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Re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

Originally Posted by Norm de Plume View Post
No question, the final cost was a major snafu on the part of the governing Liberals, and a source of great hand-wringing and denunciation at the time, but how wise was it to abrogate the registry once it was in place and efficacious?
Agree that the termination of the program was a blatant political move and an even further waste.

I question how efficacious the program was. It had its bright spots - e.g. informing officers responding to a domestic call of the existence of a legal weapon in the home. But it had very little impact on the majority of gun crimes that were committed using illegal firearms imported from the US.

But then you get down to the question of "is it better to do nothing than something?" that plagues the US currently. It's at that point that cost vs. effect comes into play Ė and hence my reasoning for branding the registry as a "failure".
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Old 02-23-18, 10:16 AM
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Re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

At least Florida legislators know what would have stopped it

Florida lawmakers advance a bill that requires 'In God We Trust' displayed on school grounds

By Joe Sterling, CNN

Updated 10:51 AM ET, Fri February 23, 2018

(CNN)A Florida lawmaker has introduced a bill that requires public schools to display the motto "In God We Trust," saying that while gun violence is a problem, "issues of the heart" need addressing as well.
"It is not a secret that we have some gun issues that need to be addressed," said Rep. Kimberly Daniels, a Democrat, said on the House floor Wednesday. "But the real thing that needs to be addressed are issues of the heart."
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Old 02-23-18, 10:16 AM
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Re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

My magnum opus

For no other reason than to amuse myself I'm going to attempt to explain my master theory of Americans, Guns, and Violence.

I was researching California history and I came across some information about old west gunfights that directed me toward a book written in the 1990's titled No Duty to Retreat. The book is basically about violence in America and how it is rooted in a fundamental difference between the English Common Law and the American legal system as it applies to self defense.

(Note to all you lawyers, I'm not a lawyer and I'm working from memory so fuck off if I make a few mistakes. I'm trying to make a larger point.)

English Common Law dates to the 12-century AD. In regard to self defense it contains an obligation to retreat if threatened with physical violence. That is to say a person who fears for his life for threat of violence has a duty to retreat from the threat, meaning back away, run, tell someone, hide, etc. It's actually worded that if a man kills another man and claims sell defense the burden falls on that man to prove in court that he "retreated until his back was against the wall." If the man fails to do so he will be found guilty of murder.

The reason for this rule is evidently due to the Crown demanding full authority in all things. It wasn't up to a threatened individual to decide to fight back. It was his job to report to the Crown so that the Crown could rule in the situation. If you killed in self defense it was often very hard to prove you had met the "duty to retreat" condition. Having a law like this greatly effects the culture.

Fast forward to the American Revolution. America is now free of England. But we do like England's legal system and we take the entirety of Common Law and make it the foundation of our own legal system. The defining characteristic of the Common Law is that it is based on precedent. Almost immediately after the Revolution American judges at the state level began handing down judgements that rebuffed duty to retreat. It seems to have been a combination of national pride, dislike of the English, distaste for monarchy, and the vastly different geography of America perched on the edge of a frontier. American judges began setting legal precedents in regards to pleas of self defense that said the man who felt threatened had no duty to retreat. It was deemed that the American citizen in fact had the right to stand his ground.

As time moved on the author points to the period of western expansion, the stuff we romanticize in Westerns, as being a period when no duty to retreat was the law of the land. Feuds and debts were settled with guns routinely. Everybody was drunk and armed and law enforcement and judges were often miles away.

Moving in to modern times "no duty to retreat" has been re-branded as "stand your ground". Stand Your Ground gets dragged into a national discussion and gets treated like it's a new thing that states are trying when in fact the precedents go back 250 years.

All of this is prologue to answering the age old question, "Why does gun violence happen more in America and not elsewhere?"

People often answer in a vague way and reply that America has a "gun culture" or a "different relationship to guns" than other countries. But I assert that the specific reason for this "relationship" is due to America being the one and only country (as far as I know) that deviates drastically from the Common Law in regards to self defense.

So my answer to, "Why is there so much gun violence and mass shooting in America and not elsewhere?" is:

1. It does happen elsewhere; just not as often or it happens in different ways. Mass killings, spree killings, massacres, genocide, ethnic cleansing, etc. have always occurred. It seems to be in our DNA as humans.

2. In addition to this "mass killing" DNA, Americans have additional DNA that comes from 250 years of legal precedent that differs from most of the rest of the world. A legal precedent that says we have no duty to retreat. It's been the law of the land since our founding and it's become, perhaps unconsciously, a part of the national character. It has done so to such a degree that a mere description of the "duty to retreat" law from the English Common Law would make the average American wince, "You mean to say that if I'm on my own land and some guy pulls a gun on me I have to retreat? And if I kill him to save my ass I'm going to be a murderer? What in the FUCK?!"
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Old 02-23-18, 10:19 AM
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Re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

I realized last night that I've been looking at this all wrong. American already has a large group of people who are trained experts at handling weapons and defending against attacks. Instead of telling school teachers to carry guns to defend their students, we should put Army infantry soldiers in charge of children's educations.
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Old 02-23-18, 10:24 AM
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Re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

Originally Posted by mcnabb View Post
If we want to address the culture (and believe me I don't think it's the main problem, just one of the symptons), but the elephant in the room is that pretty much all of these school shootings happen by Teenage White Males in Suburbia. You don't see girls shooting up schools, you never see Black's shooting up schools in Urban Areas, it's strictly a Suburban White Male Problem. I don't have an answer but whenever I hear about a school shooting, the first thought that comes to mind is White Male Teenager.
No doubt. I still donít fully understand why society doesnít confront this. There was a movie made about it called Taxi Driver yet most of society wants to pretend it doesnít exist. Paul Schrader who wrote that film calls it ďwhite boy diseaseĒ and he says he himself has been there. He wrote the film out of a period in his life where he was on the edge. We all know what white boy disease is, we all have seen the result. Most famously itís John Lennon and Ronald Reagan. Today it seems to be school shootings are preferable over assassination of famous people.

Itís a combination of depression, loneliness, self destruction, social ostracism, and it leads to gun fetishization and ultimately violence.
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Old 02-23-18, 10:24 AM
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Re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

Originally Posted by Mabuse View Post
It is a culture issue. And itís driven by our legal precedents. Do I need to drag my greatest hits out again? Iíve written a long piece about this and posted it in almost every thread about gun violence weíve had.
If itís a curltural difference that requires alcohol and drug regulations, then logically we need gun regulation.

If itís a cultural issue that we donít need gun regulation then we donít need it for drugs or alcohol.

Culture almost by definition cuts across muliple topics.
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Old 02-23-18, 10:24 AM
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Re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

Originally Posted by cungar View Post
At least Florida legislators know what would have stopped it
This reads like an Onion article.
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Old 02-23-18, 10:29 AM
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Re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

The "cultural issue" argument is poorly worded. What you have is a "gun culture" issue, which is compounded by generic cultural traits/values like individualism for example.
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