Religion, Politics and World Events They make great dinner conversation, don't you think? plus Political Film

Mass Shootings [Merged]

Old 02-02-18, 10:04 AM
  #76  
DVD Talk Hero
 
inri222's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 44,087
re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

Originally Posted by story View Post
What are straw purchases?
When a person with a criminal record gets a person with a clean record to purchases firearms for them.
inri222 is offline  
Old 02-02-18, 07:59 PM
  #77  
DVD Talk Legend
 
JimRochester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Rochester, NY. USA
Posts: 17,473
re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

Originally Posted by Sdallnct View Post
Just because some get around a law, doesn’t mean the law can’t be effective.
I've maintained all along that it will have an effect on the impulse or spontaneous violence. The 12 year old girl who was bullied or the college guy who was just spurned, take a previously legal firearm and go down and show them "they'll be sorry". If mom, or dad or college dude don't have that legal firearm in firstplace, the anger will most likely pass.

What I've argued is that they do little to nothing to stop the criminal element, the terrorist element and the mentally ill Vegas style shooter. For the most part they have the time, the means and the determination to obtain a firearm. There is a total disregard for any law in the first place. Mortgages and car payments are secondary concerns with their money. And history proves that people determined to obtain things, however illegal, will find a way given time.

Gun violence was on a downward trend already before the SAFE Act. That was one of the arguments against it. That it wasn't needed. The Act itself was written so hastily and poorly, it actually made the firearms the police carry illegal. There was no provision for police or military to carry more than 7 bullets. That portion of the law was deemed arbitrary and unconstitutional so it never held up.

Most of the stuff we see in the paper is either a straw purchase or a stolen firearm. Vast majority handguns, however we did have a driveby shooting with an AR style weapon that had been stolen from a residence. The entire gun safe was stolen and taken to a location where it could be pried open. The thiefs then sold the guns on the street.
JimRochester is offline  
Old 02-02-18, 08:56 PM
  #78  
DVD Talk Hero
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Home again, Big D
Posts: 27,351
re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

I agree with you. Things in the SAFE help prevent deaths. Is it perfect? No. But if it does help prevent deaths, what is the issue? Go in and fix the parts that were poorly worded. All types of legislation has to be tweaked. Why does gun laws have to be perfect out the gate or "we should neve do it".

As for mass shootings, as I've said from the beginning, doing ONE thing (such as SAFE) would probably have minimum impact. You say it "wasn't needed". Do you know if the reduction would have been as fast without it? No. And neither do I. However, don't we have to start somewhere. We need the CDC to do a deep dive and study the issue. I'm in agreement to reduce these would likely take multiple approaches. There is no quick fix. Of course people would have to want to reduce these mass shooting. There does have to be a mindset change.
Sdallnct is offline  
Old 02-03-18, 08:40 AM
  #79  
DVD Talk Legend
 
JimRochester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Rochester, NY. USA
Posts: 17,473
re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

I'm glad you at least admit there is no quick fix. Others have claimed there are tons of things we can do without offering an actual possible solution.

The problem is the age old argument that Dick Durbin coincidentally just applied to immigration. He said, and I'm paraphrasing let's not wrap up the millions of law abiding in an effort to curb the law breaking. That is always the argument with gun owners. You are writing laws that will effect 100% of the law abiding and legal gun owner 100% of the time yet when it comes to the violence there is limited results. As a society we have to decide whether we want to change the privileges of the 99% to punish the 1%. I understand how terrible these events are. I understand that it is sensational in the news. In the open and free society we have always prided ourselves on, there will be those that take advantage of the system and commit cowardly acts. Other countries do not offer those freedoms and as such do not suffer from the negative.
JimRochester is offline  
Old 02-03-18, 10:34 AM
  #80  
DVD Talk Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: NYC
Posts: 17,018
re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

Originally Posted by JimRochester View Post
You mentioned several times several solutions, I believe even using the term "easy" at one point.
Jim, this is the second time recently you've incorrectly attributed the word "easy" to something I've said. Consider why you misread the intent of my posts that way.

Yes, I've written my representatives before to discuss this and other issues.
Breakfast with Girls is offline  
Old 02-03-18, 10:42 AM
  #81  
DVD Talk Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: NYC
Posts: 17,018
re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

Originally Posted by JimRochester View Post
I didn't see one practical solution offered by those complaining in this group.
Did you offer your own practical solutions?

I agree that the conversation is unproductive without concrete proposals, so here are some tangible recommendations, from most practical to least—none of which require confiscation:

• Increase penalties against FFL dealers who can't account for their firearm sales (i.e., the ones selling off the books to criminals).
• Increase funding for regular ATF checks on FFL dealers to identify the bad ones and arrest them.
• Require universal background checks, regardless of venue or firearm type.
• Create a national (or at least state) computerized gun registry for all new sales.
• Require firearm titles for all firearms, just like vehicles.
• Hold title holders criminally responsible in the event it can be proven they were complicit in the use of their weapon in a crime—to dissuade straw purchases and unregistered gifts.

Last edited by Breakfast with Girls; 02-03-18 at 10:50 AM.
Breakfast with Girls is offline  
Old 02-03-18, 01:19 PM
  #82  
DVD Talk Hero
 
JasonF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 38,991
re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

That's a good and reasonable sounding (to me, anyway) list of proposals, BwG. I would add that more states should adopt the FOID process that Illinois uses:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FOID_(firearms)

And that FOID holders should be required to pass an exam on gun safety and marksmanship, similar to how drivers' license applicants must pass a driving test.
JasonF is offline  
Old 02-03-18, 01:53 PM
  #83  
DVD Talk Legend
 
JimRochester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Rochester, NY. USA
Posts: 17,473
re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

Originally Posted by Breakfast with Girls View Post
Did you offer your own practical solutions?

I agree that the conversation is unproductive without concrete proposals, so here are some tangible recommendations, from most practical to least—none of which require confiscation:

• Increase penalties against FFL dealers who can't account for their firearm sales (i.e., the ones selling off the books to criminals).
• Increase funding for regular ATF checks on FFL dealers to identify the bad ones and arrest them.
• Require universal background checks, regardless of venue or firearm type.
• Create a national (or at least state) computerized gun registry for all new sales.
• Require firearm titles for all firearms, just like vehicles.
• Hold title holders criminally responsible in the event it can be proven they were complicit in the use of their weapon in a crime—to dissuade straw purchases and unregistered gifts.
I did not offer my own practical solutions because I believe there aren't any. The genie is out of the bottle. I believe that most of what is proposed would do little to stop gun violence and almost nothing to stop mass shootings. The only thing it would effect are the spontaneous or impulsive shootings like LA.

If I misattributed the word "easy" to you then I apologize. I could have sworn someone used that word. I remember saying if it was so easy then it probably would have been done when Obama had the house and senate, but this topic spreads across so many threads it's easy to mix them up.

All of your proposals do seem common sense. I will correct the last one. Straw buyers are held criminally responsible. We have one in jail locally and another pleading out because he rolled on his buddy who shot his dad. They just aren't held to the murder or other superior charges which they should be.

Since this thread is specifically about the mass shootings. What are yours and other people's thoughts on how the above recommendations would have specifically made a difference in some of the recent events? Las Vegas, Los Angeles school, or go back to San Bernardino, etc. In each of these you have someone who would pass all background checks, someone who stole a family member's gun, and people who used a straw buyer.

One area where we all agree is restricting access to those suffering from mental illness. The balancing act is who decides who is too far gone? Is he just depressed because his dog died or is he really suicidal or homicidal because life sucks so bad? Will people stop seeking help if they believe they will lose their gun rights? I can't say my kid is crazy because they'll take away my hunting rifle. I keep it locked up.

So it is balancing the rights of the individuals versus the safety of society.

Last edited by JimRochester; 02-03-18 at 02:02 PM.
JimRochester is offline  
Old 02-03-18, 01:59 PM
  #84  
DVD Talk Legend
 
JimRochester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Rochester, NY. USA
Posts: 17,473
re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

Originally Posted by JasonF View Post
That's a good and reasonable sounding (to me, anyway) list of proposals, BwG. I would add that more states should adopt the FOID process that Illinois uses:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FOID_(firearms)

And that FOID holders should be required to pass an exam on gun safety and marksmanship, similar to how drivers' license applicants must pass a driving test.
Chicago murders 2017

I guess both sides could argue they are right. Murders were down in 2017 compared to 2016 which was good. But in a city with extremely tight gun controls like the above, there were still 650 killed versus the historically high of 771 in 2017.
JimRochester is offline  
Old 02-03-18, 04:42 PM
  #85  
DVD Talk Legend
 
JimRochester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Rochester, NY. USA
Posts: 17,473
re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

For the straw purchases, Enrique Marquez Jr. (san Bernardino) pled guilty and is facing 25 years and a $500,000 fine according to his plea agreement. The local one here (Rochester Christmas eve massacre), Dawn Nguyen was found guilty of fraud and conspiracy and is serving 8 years.
JimRochester is offline  
Old 02-03-18, 04:53 PM
  #86  
DVD Talk Hero
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Home again, Big D
Posts: 27,351
re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

Originally Posted by JimRochester View Post
I'm glad you at least admit there is no quick fix. Others have claimed there are tons of things we can do without offering an actual possible solution.

The problem is the age old argument that Dick Durbin coincidentally just applied to immigration. He said, and I'm paraphrasing let's not wrap up the millions of law abiding in an effort to curb the law breaking. That is always the argument with gun owners. You are writing laws that will effect 100% of the law abiding and legal gun owner 100% of the time yet when it comes to the violence there is limited results. As a society we have to decide whether we want to change the privileges of the 99% to punish the 1%. I understand how terrible these events are. I understand that it is sensational in the news. In the open and free society we have always prided ourselves on, there will be those that take advantage of the system and commit cowardly acts. Other countries do not offer those freedoms and as such do not suffer from the negative.
I'm not sure what "those freedoms" you speek of (other than almost unlimited gun ownership). There are many "free and democratic" countries that don't have mass shootings.

And I refuse to accept that "this is the USA, so we must have mass shooting and our kids must die".
Sdallnct is offline  
Old 02-03-18, 05:02 PM
  #87  
DVD Talk Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: NYC
Posts: 17,018
re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

Originally Posted by JasonF View Post
That's a good and reasonable sounding (to me, anyway) list of proposals, BwG. I would add that more states should adopt the FOID process that Illinois uses:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FOID_(firearms)

And that FOID holders should be required to pass an exam on gun safety and marksmanship, similar to how drivers' license applicants must pass a driving test.
I like this when paired with the exam. I'll add it to my list.

Originally Posted by JimRochester View Post
I did not offer my own practical solutions because I believe there aren't any. The genie is out of the bottle. I believe that most of what is proposed would do little to stop gun violence and almost nothing to stop mass shootings. The only thing it would effect are the spontaneous or impulsive shootings like LA.
You can almost always a positive impact, however small. Unless you throw your hands up and give up.

If I misattributed the word "easy" to you then I apologize. I could have sworn someone used that word.
No worries. I didn't even need to check my previous posts, because that's something I would never say. Contentious issues are difficult; otherwise, they would already be solved.

All of your proposals do seem common sense. I will correct the last one. Straw buyers are held criminally responsible. We have one in jail locally and another pleading out because he rolled on his buddy who shot his dad. They just aren't held to the murder or other superior charges which they should be.
Noted, thanks. It looks like some states have moved to make this a felony. I think it could be rephrased as "persuade every state to make it a felony."

Since this thread is specifically about the mass shootings. What are yours and other people's thoughts on how the above recommendations would have specifically made a difference in some of the recent events? Las Vegas, Los Angeles school, or go back to San Bernardino, etc. In each of these you have someone who would pass all background checks, someone who stole a family member's gun, and people who used a straw buyer.
Thousands of people die each year from shootings of all kinds, not just in high-profile mass shootings. Gun protection efficacy can't be judged solely on the basis of mass shootings. Still, if we had better information sharing, the Texas church mass shooter would have been prevented from purchasing firearms from Walmart, for example. I don't know enough about the other cases to offer an opinion.

One area where we all agree is restricting access to those suffering from mental illness. The balancing act is who decides who is too far gone?
To start, any required mental health examinations (mandated by the state, given by army psychologists, etc.) should share to NICS (or rather, a similar centralized system) if there is a predisposition to violence or mental instability.
Breakfast with Girls is offline  
Old 02-03-18, 05:07 PM
  #88  
DVD Talk Legend
 
JimRochester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Rochester, NY. USA
Posts: 17,473
re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

Originally Posted by Sdallnct View Post
I'm not sure what "those freedoms" you speek of (other than almost unlimited gun ownership). There are many "free and democratic" countries that don't have mass shootings.

And I refuse to accept that "this is the USA, so we must have mass shooting and our kids must die".
If we change the laws for the 99% to accommodate for the 1% that abuse the privilege, then that 99% is losing a freedom. They owned a gun and 98 others like them owned it and did nothing wrong. The 100th guy stole one, or had someone buy one for him and used it in a crime. Now the 99 can't own one because of the one. To me that by definition is losing a freedom. The other countries have an open society however they didn't have that freedom to begin with. Or in the case of Australia, they did have the freedom and it was taken.
JimRochester is offline  
Old 02-03-18, 05:14 PM
  #89  
DVD Talk Hero
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Home again, Big D
Posts: 27,351
re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

One area I've recommended in the past was developing an alarm that recognizes specifically gun fire and the exact location.

One of the issue in Vegas seemed to be not sure what room the shooter was in.

Many large cities and area have sensors that would detect a dirty bomb for example. Surely we can come up w/sensors that can pin point gun fire.

Last edited by Sdallnct; 02-03-18 at 05:22 PM.
Sdallnct is offline  
Old 02-03-18, 05:28 PM
  #90  
DVD Talk Hero
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Home again, Big D
Posts: 27,351
re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

Originally Posted by JimRochester View Post
If we change the laws for the 99% to accommodate for the 1% that abuse the privilege, then that 99% is losing a freedom. They owned a gun and 98 others like them owned it and did nothing wrong. The 100th guy stole one, or had someone buy one for him and used it in a crime. Now the 99 can't own one because of the one. To me that by definition is losing a freedom. The other countries have an open society however they didn't have that freedom to begin with. Or in the case of Australia, they did have the freedom and it was taken.
And since Australia has not had a mass shooting, I'm not sure that is a good example.

Also, I'm not sure why you are stuck on "all guns must go". No one has said that.

But for the sake of argument, let's continue your thought. That people would lose the freedom of owning certain guns (or one person doesn't get a gun). For you to say that, you would have to suggest that owning those certain guns is more important than those that lost the ultimate fredom, their lives. I'm going to assume no one would suggest owning a particular gun is more important than a life.

Last edited by Sdallnct; 02-03-18 at 05:34 PM.
Sdallnct is offline  
Old 02-04-18, 12:28 AM
  #91  
DVD Talk Legend
 
JimRochester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Rochester, NY. USA
Posts: 17,473
re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

http://www.shotspotter.com/

Helps with Police but not admissible in court at this time.
JimRochester is offline  
Old 02-04-18, 12:34 AM
  #92  
DVD Talk Legend
 
JimRochester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Rochester, NY. USA
Posts: 17,473
re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

Originally Posted by Sdallnct View Post
And since Australia has not had a mass shooting, I'm not sure that is a good example.
In 2011, there was a mass shooting in Hectorville. In 2014, one in Hunt, and again in 2014 one in Wedderburn (which was a 4 hour siege of a neighborhood).
- Australia only has 23 million people living in it (with a large amount of those very spread out). The United States has nearly 14 times as many people, at nearly 320 million. So if you compare apples to apples, if Australia had as many people as the United States and the ratio of mass killings to total populace remained the same, Australia would have 42 mass killings compared to 29 in the United States during the same period. - shaun broyhill
JimRochester is offline  
Old 02-04-18, 08:47 PM
  #93  
DVD Talk Hero
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Home again, Big D
Posts: 27,351
re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

There at least seems to be some debate on the topic,

https://www.google.com/amp/amp.slate..._probably.html

“Still, the past five years have brought some additional clarity. And one core fact has remained strikingly unchanged: In the 18 years before Port Arthur, Australia witnessed 13 mass shootings, defined as shootings in which five or more people were killed. In the 21 years since, there have been none.”

Will have to do some more reading. On initial ready maybe mass shooting is defined differently? I’d live with the definition of 5 or more....
Sdallnct is offline  
Old 02-12-18, 09:00 AM
  #94  
DVD Talk Hero
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Home again, Big D
Posts: 27,351
re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

https://www.cnn.com/2016/06/13/healt...rnd/index.html

Wow....almost speechless.

How can we not even define mass shooting? It's past time to let the CDC study the issue.
Sdallnct is offline  
Old 02-13-18, 10:12 AM
  #95  
DVD Talk Hero
 
inri222's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 44,087
re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

Murdered his parents, his girlfriend and his girlfriend's mother before killing himself

UPDATE: Brother, uncle mourn victims in quadruple murder-suicide

http://www.wsaz.com/content/news/Two...473700623.html



inri222 is offline  
Old 02-13-18, 05:01 PM
  #96  
DVD Talk Legend
 
JimRochester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Rochester, NY. USA
Posts: 17,473
re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

Military adds 4000 veterans to gun ban list

In the wake of the Texas shooting, where a veteran with a history of domestic abuse was allowed to buy a gun when he shouldn't have, the military has added 4000 names to the list.
JimRochester is offline  
Old 02-13-18, 06:39 PM
  #97  
DVD Talk Godfather
 
DVD Polizei's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 51,342
re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

Good. It's a well-known correlation that those with military backgrounds, should be closely monitored when any type of assault and domestic violence are on their record. It's not that they are "bad", but that their occupation brings out behaviors, and with the easily obtained weapons privilege...not a good mix.
DVD Polizei is offline  
Old 02-13-18, 07:42 PM
  #98  
DVD Talk Legend
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Conducting miss-aisle drills and listening to their rock n roll
Posts: 15,479
re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

That’s a great step in the right direction.

Enforce the laws we have, damnit. Strengthen the laws we have.
Mabuse is online now  
Old 02-14-18, 03:33 PM
  #99  
DVD Talk Hero
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Rosemount, MN
Posts: 29,471
School Shooting in Florida (Now Is Not The Time To Talk About Gun Control!)

The clock has been reset on talking about gun control. Active school shooting in Florida, at least 20 injured, shooter still at large. #MAGA

CNN

Happening now: There is an active shooting unfolding at Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, Florida
The victims: At least 20 people were injured, according to WSVN.
The shooter: Local authorities say the shooter is still at large.
Draven is online now  
Old 02-14-18, 03:34 PM
  #100  
DVD Talk Hero
 
davidh777's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Home of 2013 NFL champion Seahawks
Posts: 40,504
Re: School Shooting in Florida (Now Is Not The Time To Talk About Gun Control!)

But if this is not the time to talk about gun control, can we at least offer our thoughts and prayers?
davidh777 is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.