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Mass Shootings [Merged]

Old 01-28-18, 02:20 PM
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re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

Does this count?

5 killed in shooting at Pennsylvania car wash


https://www.yahoo.com/news/state-pol...152123444.html


Five people were found dead early Sunday at a car wash in suburban Pennsylvania and police say they have no motive yet for the shooting.

The shooting at Ed's Car Wash occurred shortly before 3 a.m. in the Melcroft community of Saltlick Township, about 55 miles (89 kilometers) southeast of Pittsburgh. The victims were identified as three men and two women, but their names and further information about them was not immediately disclosed. One person was injured.

Four of the victims were pronounced dead at the scene, while another died at a hospital, according to a state trooper. He said two of the victims were found inside a pickup truck and two others were found outside in the car wash's parking lot.

An injured person was taken to a hospital, but it's not clear if that person was shot, state police said. Further information about that person was not released.

Authorities were trying to determine if the shooter was among those found.

Three vehicles were towed from the location. Two were pickup trucks — including the one that two of the victims were found in — and the other was a sedan.
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Old 01-28-18, 02:33 PM
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re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

Hopefully the surviving victim can provide a motive.
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Old 01-28-18, 02:37 PM
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re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

Originally Posted by VinVega View Post
There are plenty of solutions out there. None of them will be implemented because of the strength of the NRA and the gun culture in this country. It's not about offering solutions, it's about the political will to implement them.

So basically, yawn...a bunch more people were mowed down today by guns.
I didn't see one practical solution offered by those complaining in this group. Even without the NRA it would have to be a practical solution, not easily sidestepped by those wishing to do harm, yet minimal impact on legal gun owners, and within the second amendment. What are a few of the plenty of solutions people would like to see if the NRA wasn't a factor?

We have 310 million guns in circulation in this country. Roughly 110 million handguns with the rest rifles and shotguns. The AR style rifle has been the best selling rifle in the country for about 10 years with somewhere north of 10 million, up to 12 million in circulation.
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Old 01-28-18, 03:34 PM
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re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

Tomorrow is the 1 year anniversary of the Bowling Green massacre. We should all take a few minutes to stop and pray for the victims of this horrible event, as well as their families and friends.

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Old 01-28-18, 04:51 PM
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re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

Originally Posted by JimRochester View Post
I didn't see one practical solution offered by those complaining in this group. Even without the NRA it would have to be a practical solution, not easily sidestepped by those wishing to do harm, yet minimal impact on legal gun owners, and within the second amendment. What are a few of the plenty of solutions people would like to see if the NRA wasn't a factor?

We have 310 million guns in circulation in this country. Roughly 110 million handguns with the rest rifles and shotguns. The AR style rifle has been the best selling rifle in the country for about 10 years with somewhere north of 10 million, up to 12 million in circulation.
I'm pretty sure you wouldn't consider any of these a "practical solution," but this is how other countries handle gun issues:

Gizmodo - Australia Hasn’t Had A Mass Shooting Since 1996

Gun Control Around The World
As an academic exercise, one might speculate whether law could play a constructive role in reducing the number or deadliness of mass shootings.

Most other advanced nations apparently think so, since they make it far harder for someone like the Charleston killer to get his hands on a Glock semiautomatic handgun or any other kind of firearm (universal background checks are common features of gun regulation in other developed countries).

Germany: To buy a gun, anyone under the age of 25 has to pass a psychiatric evaluation (presumably 21-year-old Dylann Roof would have failed).
Finland: Handgun license applicants are only allowed to purchase firearms if they can prove they are active members of regulated shooting clubs. Before they can get a gun, applicants must pass an aptitude test, submit to a police interview, and show they have a proper gun storage unit.
Italy: To secure a gun permit, one must establish a genuine reason to possess a firearm and pass a background check considering both criminal and mental health records (again, presumably Dylann Roof would have failed).
France: Firearms applicants must have no criminal record and pass a background check that considers the reason for the gun purchase and evaluates the criminal, mental, and health records of the applicant. (Dylann Roof would presumably have failed in this process).
United Kingdom and Japan: Handguns are illegal for private citizens.
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Old 01-28-18, 05:35 PM
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re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

Originally Posted by VinVega View Post
I'm pretty sure you wouldn't consider any of these a "practical solution," but this is how other countries handle gun issues:
There’s a similarity in approach between immigration advocates and gun rights advocates.... in the beginning, they don’t want to consider corrective action because they believe the issue is being overblown. once the issue is so large that it can no longer be ignored, their response is, the problem is too big to control.
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Old 01-28-18, 05:37 PM
  #57  
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re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

America doesn't have a gun problem. We have a gun culture problem.

You can't stop a determined individual from procuring a gun, even in places where there are strict measures, and even bans on weapons, people can get guns. Change cannot be achieved through these methods.

Something that we can work to change is the gun culture of America. There are stereotypes held by Americans, both gun owners and gun opponents, that are similar to racist stereotypes. "Gun owners think they're cowboys", "gun shows are black powder country clubs where gun nuts make jokes about the Kenyan President". And on the flip side, "gun opponents are pussies", "the first thing Hitler did is seize all the guns", "if you criminalize guns only the criminals will have guns".

This isn't productive. We need to unite and commit to changing the gun culture. Both sides need to change. There are folks with unreasonable fear of guns and there are folks who possess an unreasonably large quantity of guns and have an unreasonable amount of fear that the pinko government is coming to get them.

Last edited by Mabuse; 01-28-18 at 05:43 PM.
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Old 01-28-18, 06:02 PM
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re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

My previously posted piece.

A Modest Proposal on The Gun Culture


1. If you own one gun. Nothing happens. You can keep your gun.
2. If you own more than one gun, you must surrender all of your guns except one of your liking.
3. If you own no guns, and are a law abiding citizen, you will be issued one of these "used guns" and will be required to go to the gun range twice a year and attend two organized hunting events each year. Actual killing will not be required, but you must attend.

This system will be in place for 10 years and then we will assess the results. I believe society's feelings about guns would be forever altered.

I am a sportsman and I am against gun control, but I do think we have a problem in this country. Those with guns frequently have too many of them and are too "from my cold dead hand" on the issue. They have unrealistic fears that people are out to get their guns.

Meanwhile, the gun-control side of the argument seems to have unrealistic fears about guns and gun owners. They literally lack any understanding of how guns work and what they can be used for. They think Gun Shows and shooting ranges are Black Powder Country Clubs where gun nuts plot behind their backs to shoot down anyone with a Liberal Arts Degree...and Kenyans.

We need to come together and learn from one another if we are going to live together to solve this problem.

Rather than back away and legislate for more gun control I think we need to grow the gun culture and make it larger and more inclusive. Opponents need to realize "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em." If you don't like gun culture you need to join it, become a part of it, and change it from the inside. If there was a Brooklyn Gun Club of bearded hipsters who got together to drink craft bear and do some target shooting maybe we would see a shift away from gun owners only being one kind of dude.

Of course my idea is 99% satire, but I mean what I say. I think everyone should really walk that mile in the gun owner's shoes. Likewise, the gun nuts who own 25 guns need a 10 year lesson about "less is more". It's a ten year mandatory mental readjustment.

Guns have both a stigma and an allure that is created by ignorance and romance. Both need to be curtailed. We need to have guns, but we don't need "gun culture".

Last edited by Mabuse; 01-29-18 at 10:34 AM.
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Old 01-28-18, 06:03 PM
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re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

Paraphrase:
There are only two kinds of people in America, those that fetishize guns and those that know almost nothing about them and harbor beliefs that the gun fetishists are secretly networking in a quest to harm them. Both sides think the other side is out to end their way off life.
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Old 01-29-18, 12:16 AM
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re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

Fetishes are always dicey, but I for one appreciate the above three posts.

I do think we have a 'gun problem' - regardless of which gun owner has 100, and which owner has only 1, we don't need almost 1 gun per citizen per capita.

But we certainly have a gun culture problem, and more exactly a problem that finds argument and violence to be our top two problem-solving techniques. (Among other American traits.)

The modest proposal is pretty funny, too.

We don't really 'need to have guns', but that genie is currently out of the bottle. Inasmuch as we have guns and gun culture, we need to change that culture. If it were possible to make that happen, then we might be able to more dispassionately decide if we need guns at all.

ETA: This was the moment I became a Senior Citizen. I feel like I just wrote my first Letter To The Editor.
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Old 01-29-18, 08:11 AM
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re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

Originally Posted by Mabuse View Post
America doesn't have a gun problem. We have a gun culture problem.

You can't stop a determined individual from procuring a gun, even in places where there are strict measures, and even bans on weapons, people can get guns. Change cannot be achieved through these methods.

Something that we can work to change is the gun culture of America. There are stereotypes held by Americans, both gun owners and gun opponents, that are similar to racist stereotypes. "Gun owners think they're cowboys", "gun shows are black powder country clubs where gun nuts make jokes about the Kenyan President". And on the flip side, "gun opponents are pussies", "the first thing Hitler did is seize all the guns", "if you criminalize guns only the criminals will have guns".

This isn't productive. We need to unite and commit to changing the gun culture. Both sides need to change. There are folks with unreasonable fear of guns and there are folks who possess an unreasonably large quantity of guns and have an unreasonable amount of fear that the pinko government is coming to get them.
America has a perception problem, fueled by misleading and purposely biased reporting of selected crimes.

When is the last time anyone heard of a gun owner in the news...having never shot anyone or any animal, and does not have extremist viewpoints on the issue.
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Old 01-30-18, 01:50 AM
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re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

Originally Posted by Why So Blu? View Post
Does this count?

5 killed in shooting at Pennsylvania car wash


https://www.yahoo.com/news/state-pol...152123444.html
I just seen a tweet from the BCC that stated it was over jealousy.
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Old 01-30-18, 06:16 AM
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re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

Originally Posted by Kurtie Dee View Post
Fetishes are always dicey, but I for one appreciate the above three posts.

I do think we have a 'gun problem' - regardless of which gun owner has 100, and which owner has only 1, we don't need almost 1 gun per citizen per capita.

But we certainly have a gun culture problem, and more exactly a problem that finds argument and violence to be our top two problem-solving techniques. (Among other American traits.)

The modest proposal is pretty funny, too.

We don't really 'need to have guns', but that genie is currently out of the bottle. Inasmuch as we have guns and gun culture, we need to change that culture. If it were possible to make that happen, then we might be able to more dispassionately decide if we need guns at all.

ETA: This was the moment I became a Senior Citizen. I feel like I just wrote my first Letter To The Editor.
Welcome to the forum grandpa

That Genie out of the bottle sentiment is exactly true. We've had this discussion numerous times. Every possible law is foillowed by an easy way to get around. The discussion usually ends with "we have to try something even if it won't work." If it was that easy I think Obama would have done it when he had the house and senate.

In order to truly get what other countries have, you have to do what they did. First no second amendment which the left would like. Any laws would have to be Federal. Without that they just bring them in from other states. Secondly you would have to confiscate the 330 million in circulation. If you don't, the existing stockpile would last a century or two. The left would like confiscation but it should scare most people. Then you need border security. You don't want a wall? Too bad. Without one the flow of guns across the border will be more profitable and more prolific than drugs. Left won't like a wall. Left won't like the immigration policy as well in order to cut down on the criminal element. You can no longer use the argument "you can't punish the 99% law abiding over the 1% criminal", because you just did that with gun owners. Then you'll have to clamp down on every gun part manufacturer and make parts impossible to buy. Without guns they'll have no customers anyway.

We often look to Europe and Australia for examples. Australia is an island so it was easy, but Europe has some pretty snug borders and a wide swath of guns being illegal. Even at that there is still some gun crime just not nearly as much. Terrorists have still smuggled in guns to France and England. But a law with punishment has no effect on those that won't and don't obey the law nor care about the punishment. You would have to get rid of the supply.
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Old 01-30-18, 06:37 AM
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re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

But your entire post is one long series of strawman arguments. Who is "the left?" Is it the dozen gun-owning left-leaning people I worked with at my last job—including myself? What does a wall have to do with anything? Why do gun protections have to be an all-or-nothing prospect? I can think of several things the government can do that don't involve confiscating guns.

If you're serious about finding a solution, you can start with answering the question, "Where do most illegal firearms come from?"
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Old 01-30-18, 08:50 AM
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re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

Originally Posted by JimRochester View Post
It's the internet so it's a favorite pastime to bitch that no one is doing anything about a problem while at the same time offering no real solution of their own. I'm pretty sure if it was so easy as everyone thinks it would have been done.


To re-introduce a topic I mentioned in one of the other threads regarding gun control; In NY we have the strictest gun laws in the country. Cuomo banned the sale and purchase of all AR style weapons in the state. Tried to restrict ammunition capacity. Made many lesser crimes felonies which was a good thing.

There is now an underground cottage industry making the weapons you can no longer legally buy. Ghost guns are made by buying or maching the necessary parts and building from scratch, or buying a long gun with the same caliber and modifying to become an assault rifle. In cases where people make entirely from scratch, there is no serial number to trace, hence the name.

So my point is you can introduce all the laws you want. Getting the bad guys to adhere to the law is another issue entirely. One area where limited ownership laws would work might be school shootings. The spontaneous; girl dumped me, jock bullied me, I'm going to get dad's gun and I'll show them. If dad doesn't have the gun less of a problem. I believe most school shootings tend to be handguns and not AR style, at least since Sandy Hook. As far as the more complex, planned and organized, Vegas or San Bernardino style, people with means and a suicidal determination to make the news, that's a lot tougher. Or the gang style shootings which are a problem, especially out on Long Island right now. Tough to control when there are so many supply lines. You only have so many fingers to put in the dike.
Since the SAFE Act, violent crime with guns has continued to decrease.

http://www.politifact.com/new-york/s...nged-safe-act/

Now as the article states coralation does not = causation. More study (and I'd argue more time) is needed to evaluate. Gun violence was already trending down. Why?

This is my single biggest issue. We can't even agree to study the issue. How the CDC can not be allowed to determine even what the issues are.

Sure you can say "nothing will work". But you bring to the table no more researched evidence than if I say "strict gun control will lessen deaths".

I'm willing to concede that banning X might not have an impact. How about we study X and find out?

And I'll add, I've never really understood the argument of "if we make more laws then the some will just find away around them"? Would you make that arguement for almost anything else? Should we not have speed limits since some people will speed anyway? Should we not make murder a crime since some people still committ murder?

Again, with appropriate research some suggested activity might not work. And something else might be a better option. How about we study the issue? My "bet" is a real comprehensive study would find multiple reasons for gun violence including mass shootings. And if I were to further bet, there would be a lot of suggested actions that don't include guns at all (better and more available health care). I'm sure there would suggestions involving guns as well.

Last edited by Sdallnct; 01-30-18 at 12:32 PM.
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Old 01-30-18, 12:17 PM
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re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

Originally Posted by Breakfast with Girls View Post
But your entire post is one long series of strawman arguments. Who is "the left?" Is it the dozen gun-owning left-leaning people I worked with at my last job—including myself? What does a wall have to do with anything? Why do gun protections have to be an all-or-nothing prospect? I can think of several things the government can do that don't involve confiscating guns.

If you're serious about finding a solution, you can start with answering the question, "Where do most illegal firearms come from?"
What is an illegal firearm? A legal gun in the possession of someone who isn't allowed to have it, or an actual banned/illegal firearm?
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Old 01-30-18, 12:57 PM
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re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

Originally Posted by cpgator View Post
What is an illegal firearm? A legal gun in the possession of someone who isn't allowed to have it, or an actual banned/illegal firearm?
There's a third option: firearms of a legal make that were never legally sold in the first place. How many FFL dealers sell off the books?
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Old 01-30-18, 01:16 PM
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re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

Originally Posted by Breakfast with Girls View Post
There's a third option: firearms of a legal make that were never legally sold in the first place. How many FFL dealers sell off the books?
No idea. I would imagine a very small percent.
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Old 02-01-18, 10:08 PM
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re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

Originally Posted by cpgator View Post
No idea. I would imagine a very small percent.
Guns used in crimes, from most common to least, according to the ATF:

1. Straw purchases
2. FFL dealers selling illegally (about 8% of dealers do this)
3. Street dealers, most of whom get their inventory via straw purchases, corrupt dealers, theft, and friends and family (in that order)

I can see several possible solutions that arise from these facts that aren't all or nothing.
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Old 02-01-18, 10:34 PM
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re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

What are straw purchases?

How we can't seem to differentiate between small arms for hunting and personal defense and weapons for MASS ASSAULT is mind-boggling.
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Old 02-01-18, 11:03 PM
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re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

Another school shooting ... Oh wait, it was unintentional. Never mind.

link to L.A. Times article
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Old 02-01-18, 11:19 PM
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re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

I thought maybe the victims might only be from the chaos like being trampled but multiple people were shot.
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Old 02-02-18, 02:06 AM
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re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

Originally Posted by Sdallnct View Post

And I'll add, I've never really understood the argument of "if we make more laws then the some will just find away around them"? Would you make that arguement for almost anything else? Should we not have speed limits since some people will speed anyway? Should we not make murder a crime since some people still committ murder?
Terrorist are gonna find a way to reach young people anyway, so might as well let them preach to people on youtube.

People are gonna get angry and murder people, thus, we obviously shouldn't make any efforts to reduce murders.

Those sound ridiculous, don't they?
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Old 02-02-18, 06:13 AM
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re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

Originally Posted by Breakfast with Girls View Post
Guns used in crimes, from most common to least, according to the ATF:

1. Straw purchases
2. FFL dealers selling illegally (about 8% of dealers do this)
3. Street dealers, most of whom get their inventory via straw purchases, corrupt dealers, theft, and friends and family (in that order)

I can see several possible solutions that arise from these facts that aren't all or nothing.
I had said that if people wanted to emulate the European and Australian results they should look to emulate the tactics those countries took. You mentioned several times several solutions, I believe even using the term "easy" at one point. What might these solutions be? Have you written your congressperson with these solutions?

I tried to find it quickly but couldn't. I will continue to look. Before the SAFE Act was enacted it was reported that Gov. Cuomo had a study on ways to reduce gun violence. The results told him the only way a law would work was if it was in conjunction with confiscation to reduce the inventory of guns available to the black market. He couldn't do a wholesale takeaway but numerous provisions in the Act have guns taken away with no chance to get them back. So in NY don't go to the Dr. and tell him you're depressed because the wife dumped you. That is grounds for confiscation and you'll be done owning guns.

As an aside. We have two people locally associated with straw purchases. A young lady is in jail because she helped purchase guns for her neighbor. A neighbor who had killed his grandmother with a hammer. Years later killed his sister, set fire to the home, then shot and killed firefighters as they came to put the fire out.

A college kid allegedly killed his abusive dad with a gun his buddy purchased for him at Wal Mart 48 hours before. It appears federal prosecutors made a deal with the kid to rat out his buddy because it was the shooter they want.

Repeating a previous comment: In NY we have the SAFE Act which are the tightest gun laws in the country. You cannot find AR style guns in gun stores so people either steal from homeowners, but the parts and make or convert their own (ghost guns), or illegally import from other states.

AR style crime is pretty rare both before and after the Act. The large percentage of day to day street crime is with stolen or otherwise illegally obtained handguns.

Last edited by JimRochester; 02-02-18 at 06:21 AM.
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Old 02-02-18, 08:00 AM
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re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

Originally Posted by JimRochester View Post
I had said that if people wanted to emulate the European and Australian results they should look to emulate the tactics those countries took. You mentioned several times several solutions, I believe even using the term "easy" at one point. What might these solutions be? Have you written your congressperson with these solutions?

I tried to find it quickly but couldn't. I will continue to look. Before the SAFE Act was enacted it was reported that Gov. Cuomo had a study on ways to reduce gun violence. The results told him the only way a law would work was if it was in conjunction with confiscation to reduce the inventory of guns available to the black market. He couldn't do a wholesale takeaway but numerous provisions in the Act have guns taken away with no chance to get them back. So in NY don't go to the Dr. and tell him you're depressed because the wife dumped you. That is grounds for confiscation and you'll be done owning guns.

As an aside. We have two people locally associated with straw purchases. A young lady is in jail because she helped purchase guns for her neighbor. A neighbor who had killed his grandmother with a hammer. Years later killed his sister, set fire to the home, then shot and killed firefighters as they came to put the fire out.

A college kid allegedly killed his abusive dad with a gun his buddy purchased for him at Wal Mart 48 hours before. It appears federal prosecutors made a deal with the kid to rat out his buddy because it was the shooter they want.

Repeating a previous comment: In NY we have the SAFE Act which are the tightest gun laws in the country. You cannot find AR style guns in gun stores so people either steal from homeowners, but the parts and make or convert their own (ghost guns), or illegally import from other states.

AR style crime is pretty rare both before and after the Act. The large percentage of day to day street crime is with stolen or otherwise illegally obtained handguns.
And I’ll repeat that since SAFE gun violence has continued its downward trend.

https://forum.dvdtalk.com/13257835-post65.html

Just because some get around a law, doesn’t mean the law can’t be effective.

(And I’m not saying that 100% of the reduction is due to SAFE. There was already a downward trend. I’d like to know why).
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