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Mass Shootings [Merged]

Old 11-22-18, 12:56 PM
  #4076  
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Re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

Australia does not have a legal or historical relationship with violence like America.
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Old 11-22-18, 12:57 PM
  #4077  
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Re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

Yeah, I quite literally laughed out loud at that bullshit, too.
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Old 11-22-18, 01:22 PM
  #4078  
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Re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/21/u...e-gunfire.html

Girl, 13, Who Wrote Essay on Gun Violence Is Killed by Stray Bullet

When she was in sixth grade, Sandra Parks wrote an award-winning essay about gun violence and crime in her hometown, Milwaukee.

This week, two years after she described how “we are in a state of chaos,” she was fatally shot when someone outside fired a gun at her home and a stray bullet went into her bedroom.

The shooting happened Monday as Sandra, 13, was watching television at the time, her sister, Tatiana Ingram, told the television station WISN.

“My sister took it like a soldier: She just walked in the room and said, ‘Mama, I’m shot,’” Ms. Ingram said. “She was only hit one time, in her chest. The bullet wasn’t even for her.”

...

Sandra, then a sixth grader, told Wisconsin Public Radio that she chose to write about violence because “all you hear about is somebody dying or somebody getting shot and people do not just think about whose father or son or granddaughter or grandson who it was that was just killed.”

...

Over the past two years, 12 students in Milwaukee public schools were homicide victims, a spokeswoman for the school district said. Sandra is the seventh since January.

...

Late Wednesday afternoon, the Milwaukee County district attorney’s office charged Isaac D. Barnes, 26, and Untrell Oden, 27, with first-degree reckless homicide and other counts in Sandra’s death. Both men have previous armed robbery convictions and were charged with possession of a firearm by a felon.
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Old 11-23-18, 07:06 AM
  #4079  
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Re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

I saw that. So said.

I don’t understand wording in the article (which is similar to wording in other reports).

A “stray bullet”....when someone “fired at the home”.

What does that mean? How do you have a “stray” bullet? Did the gun malfunction so multiple bullets came out when only one was intended?

I don’t recall hearing a shooting described in this fashion.
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Old 11-23-18, 08:21 AM
  #4080  
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Re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

Originally Posted by Sdallnct View Post

What does that mean? How do you have a “stray” bullet? Did the gun malfunction so multiple bullets came out when only one was intended?
Isn't it simply that it did not hit it's intended target and hit something else.
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Old 11-23-18, 08:27 AM
  #4081  
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Re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

I think they mean that the shot was not actually aimed at the girl, even if the house itself was deliberately shot at the home (not clear if this was the case anyway). I think it is pretty common for the media to call this sort of shot a "stray".
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Old 11-23-18, 09:07 AM
  #4082  
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Re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

Originally Posted by Sdallnct View Post
I don’t understand wording in the article (which is similar to wording in other reports).

A “stray bullet”....when someone “fired at the home”.

What does that mean? How do you have a “stray” bullet? Did the gun malfunction so multiple bullets came out when only one was intended?
I would assume it means that some gangbangers were shooting at each other near her home and she was shot by one of them, though not the intended target.
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Old 11-23-18, 09:16 AM
  #4083  
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Re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

Guys, you're getting way off topic - that stray bullet only killed ONE person. This is a mass shooting thread, we need to focus on shootings where multiple folks are shot/killed...like this one:

3 killed, 2 critically hurt in Indiana Thanksgiving shooting


Police say three people were killed and two others critically wounded in a late-night shooting at a house in northeast Indiana.

Officers who were called to the home on the south side of Fort Wayne about 10:30 p.m. Thursday found four victims inside and one outside.

Police spokesman Jason Anthony tells The Journal Gazette that two males and a female victim were pronounced dead at the scene, while two male victims were taken to a hospital in critical condition.

Authorities have not released the victims' names. Police have not publicly identified any suspects in the shootings.

About 20 relatives and friends of the victims gathered across the street from the home, which was cordoned off by caution tape. The house is located immediately south of Towles Intermediate School.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/3-killed-...122410751.html
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Old 11-25-18, 09:12 AM
  #4084  
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Re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

Looks like a good conversation on guns on CNN this morning. Already covered Heller and the 2nd amendment. Interesting history...

http://cnnpressroom.blogs.cnn.com/20...cnn-worldwide/
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Old 11-25-18, 12:15 PM
  #4085  
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Re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

Originally Posted by Sdallnct View Post
Looks like a good conversation on guns on CNN this morning. Already covered Heller and the 2nd amendment. Interesting history...

http://cnnpressroom.blogs.cnn.com/20...cnn-worldwide/
From the link:

Global Lessons on Guns examines how the tens of thousands of gun homicides and gun suicides reported by U.S. government agencies have propelled America to rank among the most violent of rich countries, in terms of gun deaths.


I will absolutely stipulate that the use of a firearm makes a suicide attempt more likely to succeed and that there is even one study that suggests that the presence of a firearm in the home actually makes an attempt more likely. However, if the objective is to actually persuade viewers instead of merely preach to the proverbial choir, even mentioning suicides is just plain dumb.

At least they are mentioning Heller/McDonald. The number of people I still hear calling for substantial gun restrictions that still refuse to acknowledge the legal framework created by Heller is just sad.
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Old 11-25-18, 01:19 PM
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Re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

Originally Posted by jfoobar View Post
From the link:





I will absolutely stipulate that the use of a firearm makes a suicide attempt more likely to succeed and that there is even one study that suggests that the presence of a firearm in the home actually makes an attempt more likely. However, if the objective is to actually persuade viewers instead of merely preach to the proverbial choir, even mentioning suicides is just plain dumb.

At least they are mentioning Heller/McDonald. The number of people I still hear calling for substantial gun restrictions that still refuse to acknowledge the legal framework created by Heller is just sad.
Why is that?

There are many areas that better gun control would help with. I see not reason to hide some of,those benefits.

And as pointed out, Heller is not a total road block to substantial change. Many individual states have enacted substantial regulations and are being upheld. The Road block is our political atmosphere and system. The road block is an entitlement feeling of gun owners. The road block is using Heller and the 2nd amemenment as an excuse to continue to allow people to needlessly die.
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Old 11-25-18, 01:37 PM
  #4087  
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Re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

The real problem is the NRA. They've gone from this:



to this:

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Old 11-25-18, 02:44 PM
  #4088  
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Re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

Originally Posted by JasonF View Post
The real problem is the NRA. They've gone from this:



to this:

https://twitter.com/Sowdermania/stat...67925091155973
Yes...the show I watched this morning had a retired Chief Justice on. He stated the NRA has perpetrated this huge fraud, after a change in leadership. For 200 years plus no one thought the 2nd amendment gave unlimited rights to individuals owning guns. The history is very clear. Hell even Texas had gun laws...until the NRA took a turn.

It’s interesting that many a “conservative” has blamed Roe v. Wade on a bad decision ruling that should not apply. But they would never suggest the same Heller where there is even more evidence. Yes, I know...I just generalized...

To that end, there is not an amendment that the NRA must exist. And while I’m 100% for due process...I love that people seem to no longer look at the NRA as a sacred cow to be worshipped.

https://www.newsweek.com/nra-going-b...ancial-1057187

Last edited by Sdallnct; 11-25-18 at 03:20 PM.
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Old 11-26-18, 07:58 AM
  #4089  
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Re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

Originally Posted by Sdallnct View Post
Why is that?

There are many areas that better gun control would help with. I see not reason to hide some of,those benefits.
Because relatively few people are willing to "blame guns" when someone tries to kill him/herself. The purpose of gun control is to save the lives of innocent people, not to protect people from themselves. Even the statistics suggesting suicide attempts using firearms are more successful are misleading as it does not differentiate (nor could it) between "impulse-ambivalent" attempts, the proverbial "cry for help" attempts, and meticulous, planned attempts.

A common view, and one that is fairly accurate, is that someone who does not have access to a firearm who wants to kill themselves will use one of a hundred other common methods to do so. As a result, folding suicides into a rubric of "firearms deaths", most especially since it increases the total deaths by about 200% or so, will be viewed as intellectually dishonest and deliberately misleading.

In other words, you have plenty of ammunition (pun intended) to make a very strong case for stronger gun control based on homicide numbers alone. I mean, we are still talking about ~10,000 people a year. If your intent is to actually persuade, leave suicides out of it. I have been debating gun control, both online and off, since 1993 and I have never seen the inclusion of suicide numbers result in a positive outcome. Usually, it just derails the whole debate.

And as pointed out, Heller is not a total road block to substantial change. Many individual states have enacted substantial regulations and are being upheld.
Sorry, did not mean to imply that Heller prevented substantial gun control reform, only that many people still regularly advocate for measures (such as partial or complete handgun bans) which are not compliant with the ruling. I had to listen to a woman, a college professor no less, not two weeks ago clamor for a handgun ban. When I sheepishly reminded her that such a ban, were it miraculously passed, would immediately be struck down by the courts, her response was basically, "obviously, Heller needs to be overturned." Yeah, ok, nice chatting with you. I wonder if there is any crudités left...

The Road block is our political atmosphere and system.
I would add that part of the roadblock are proposals that are both needlessly reprehensible in the eyes of gun rights advocates and organizations and that would do little good if enacted if the objective really was to save innocent lives.
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Old 11-26-18, 10:19 AM
  #4090  
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Re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

Well I appreciate the response but respectfully disagree.

Your arguement in suicides could be made about any gun violence. Meaning people have had plenty of opportunities to get outraged (Sandy Hook, Vegas, California, Florida) but people still want to blame everything and anything rather than guns.

It’s time to force the issue. It’s what Australia did. Their strict gun laws were put in place by conservatives many of whom lost re-election because of it. But the majority feel it was/is the right thing to do.
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Old 12-17-18, 02:50 PM
  #4091  
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Re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

Amidst my “exile” no one posted this update.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbc...amp/ncna945321

The tragic death of a police officer in the Thousand Oaks Borderline Club shooting was ultimately due to friendly fire from a fellow officer. Total bummer.
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Old 12-17-18, 03:10 PM
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Re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

Originally Posted by Sdallnct View Post
Well I appreciate the response but respectfully disagree.

Your arguement in suicides could be made about any gun violence. Meaning people have had plenty of opportunities to get outraged (Sandy Hook, Vegas, California, Florida) but people still want to blame everything and anything rather than guns.

It’s time to force the issue. It’s what Australia did. Their strict gun laws were put in place by conservatives many of whom lost re-election because of it. But the majority feel it was/is the right thing to do.
I remember when Obama took to the stage and said as much. We should emulate Oz, etc. They're so intelligent. They know what's right. Common sense. On and on.

But Australia is so much different than the US.

But let's look at that idea, anyway.

University of Melbourne researchers Wang-Sheng Lee and Sandy Suardi said:

There is little evidence to suggest that [the NFA] had any significant effects on firearm homicides.

Although gun buybacks appear to be a logical and sensible policy that helps to placate the public’s fears,” the reported continued, “the evidence so far suggests that in the Australian context, the high expenditure incurred to fund the 1996 gun buyback has not translated into any tangible reductions in terms of firearm deaths.
The abstract:

The 1996-97 National Firearms Agreement (NFA) in Australia introduced strict gun laws, primarily as a reaction to the mass shooting in Port Arthur, Tasmania in 1996, where 35 people were killed. Despite the fact that several researchers using the same data have examined the impact of the NFA on firearm deaths, a consensus does not appear to have been reached. In this paper, we re-analyze the same data on firearm deaths used in previous research, using tests for unknown structural breaks as a means to identifying impacts of the NFA. The results of these tests suggest that the NFA did not have any large effects on reducing firearm homicide or suicide rates.
The document:

http://c8.nrostatic.com/sites/defaul...rdi%202008.pdf


Trying to "neatly" ban guns is not going to happen. The guns are already here. How do you propose to get rid of those weapons? Simply ask people to turn them in or use the military to take them back?

The black market will escalate, crime will actually increase because weapons will be valued as gold, and instead of reducing crime...you'll have it favor the criminal. You've heard all this before, however, but why don't you believe it when your own solutions...have proven to NOT work.

Again, you're focusing on an object as being the problem. It is not. It is the people that are the problem. And we must find out why. When we do...guns could be raining from the skies...and violence would still decrease.
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Old 12-17-18, 03:26 PM
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Re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

The "object" is designed specifically to kill people. Let's make it harder for people to get those.
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Old 12-17-18, 05:50 PM
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Re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

^You and your crazy idears.
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Old 12-17-18, 06:28 PM
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Re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

Guns don’t kill people, the bullets that fly out of them super fast kill people.
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Old 12-17-18, 07:05 PM
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Re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

Originally Posted by DVD Polizei View Post
I remember when Obama took to the stage and said as much. We should emulate Oz, etc. They're so intelligent. They know what's right. Common sense. On and on.

But Australia is so much different than the US.

But let's look at that idea, anyway.

University of Melbourne researchers Wang-Sheng Lee and Sandy Suardi said:



The abstract:



The document:

http://c8.nrostatic.com/sites/defaul...rdi%202008.pdf


Trying to "neatly" ban guns is not going to happen. The guns are already here. How do you propose to get rid of those weapons? Simply ask people to turn them in or use the military to take them back?

The black market will escalate, crime will actually increase because weapons will be valued as gold, and instead of reducing crime...you'll have it favor the criminal. You've heard all this before, however, but why don't you believe it when your own solutions...have proven to NOT work.

Again, you're focusing on an object as being the problem. It is not. It is the people that are the problem. And we must find out why. When we do...guns could be raining from the skies...and violence would still decrease.
How to take back guns? Black market will escalate?

Well if you are going to ban existing guns, then you do a buy back. Just like Australia did.

There the black market did not escalate. Having stricter gun laws does not eliminate guns. It simply makes it harder to get them. Not impossible.

Your last statement doesn’t really make sense. Unless you say “it is the people of the USA...”. Since we are the “only” ones with a mass shooting issue.

One area that I do believe helps Australia is they forced a change on their attitudes (some have said culture). Which is what is needed here.
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Old 12-17-18, 07:10 PM
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Re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

Change the culture you say? I’ve advocated for that here a half dozen times over the last five years. I got shot down every time.
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Old 12-17-18, 08:37 PM
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Re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

Originally Posted by Mabuse View Post
Change the culture you say? I’ve advocated for that here a half dozen times over the last five years. I got shot down every time.
Not exactly. I believe you have said our culture is different than any other country (which I have debated). But I’m saying if that is what your saying and IF true, let’s change it. Just like we have done with other social issues and what it appears countries like Australia have done.
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Old 12-18-18, 10:38 AM
  #4099  
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Re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

What I’ve said is this. It’s in the form of a Swiftian form of literary satire so most people completely miss my point. Maybe some day I’ll rewrite it more straightforwardly.

A Modest Proposal on The Gun Culture


1. If you own one gun. Nothing happens. You can keep your gun.
2. If you own more than one gun, you must surrender all of your guns except one of your liking.
3. If you own no guns, and are a law abiding citizen, you will be issued one of these "used guns" and will be required to go to the gun range twice a year and attend two organized hunting events each year. Actual killing will not be required, but you must attend.

This system will be in place for 10 years and then we will assess the results. I believe society's feelings about guns would be forever altered.

I am a sportsman and I am against gun control, but I do think we have a problem in this country. Those with guns frequently have too many of them and are too "from my cold dead hand" on the issue. They have unrealistic fears that people are out to get their guns.

Meanwhile, the gun-control side of the argument seems to have unrealistic fears about guns and gun owners. They literally lack any understanding of how guns work and what they can be used for. They think Gun Shows and shooting ranges are Black Powder Country Clubs where gun nuts plot behind their backs to shoot down anyone with a Liberal Arts Degree.

We need to come together and learn from one another if we are going to live together to solve this problem.

Rather than back away and legislate for more gun control I think we need to grow the gun culture and make it larger and more inclusive. Opponents need to realize "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em." If you don't like gun culture you need to join it, become a part of it, and change it from the inside. If there was a Brooklyn Gun Club of bearded hipsters who got together to drink craft bear and do some target shooting maybe we would see a shift away from gun owners only being one kind of dude.

Of course my idea is 99% satire, but I mean what I say. I think everyone should really walk that mile in the gun owner's shoes. Likewise, the gun nuts who own 25 guns need a 10 year lesson about "less is more". It's a ten year mandatory mental readjustment.

Guns have both a stigma and an allure that is created by ignorance and romance. Both need to be curtailed. We need to have guns, but we don't need "gun culture".
Notice I didn’t say “more guns”. I said more gun culture. Right now the only gun culture is a bunch of extremely defensive men that think the federal and state governments are lined up against them. There’s no moderate gun culture.

Again:
Originally Posted by Mabuse View Post

One side is ignorant about gun ownership.
The other side is romantic about gun ownership.

Both attitudes need to be curtailed. A new attitude, somewhere in between, needs to be created.

Last edited by Mabuse; 12-18-18 at 10:44 AM.
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Old 12-18-18, 12:16 PM
  #4100  
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Re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

Finally the Individual One administration is doing something I support..

Official federal ban on bump stocks. I doubt the NRA has the $$ to challenge the law nowadays too.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/12/18/polit...ban/index.html
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