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Mass Shootings [Merged]

Old 03-20-18, 09:41 PM
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Re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

Originally Posted by Kurtie Dee View Post
Do you think you might have said something like this, albeit more briefly (and thus more effectively) in the first place, rather than posting a 'confused' emoji? That emoji clearly was also not helpful to the discussion.
If it helps people be more aware of what they are posting before they hit "submit," it would seem to be helpful. But whatever.

I wasn't taking into account that you would be following behind him to explain what his post possibly meant ( although the "acceptable outcome" dig was left untouched).

Last edited by creekdipper; 03-20-18 at 09:50 PM.
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Old 03-20-18, 09:46 PM
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Re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

Originally Posted by creekdipper View Post
If it helps people be more aware of what they are posting before they hit "submit," it would seem to be helpful. But whatever.


This tells me all I need to know.
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Old 03-20-18, 09:47 PM
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Re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

Originally Posted by Kurtie Dee View Post
This tells me all I need to know.


Great! An acceptable outcome.

Last edited by creekdipper; 03-20-18 at 10:12 PM.
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Old 03-20-18, 09:48 PM
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Re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

Originally Posted by Sdallnct View Post
Ok, I got. Gun fee zone does not mean "gun free". It means only professionals, trained for the purpose carry guns.

But I guess that would be my next question. In a "gun zone" where everyone can be packing, how do I as random individual know those that carry know what they are doing? I've given the example where I didn't allow my small son to stay at a fiends because they kept a loaded gun "unsecured" for protection. That was my choice.

If say DisneyWorld was not a gun free zone, I doubt I would ever have taken my kids.

I get the idea that an individual may like the idea of having a gun to protect themselves and their family. And maybe that individual is well skilled and trained. But how do they (or I) know all people that have guns in the gun zone are trained and skilled?
Keep in mind there are only a few places that are 'gun free zones', like schools and other govt buildings. If you bring a gun into these places you can be charged with a crime. So then every other place is a 'gun zone' by that definition, though private companies can prohibit firearms if they choose.
And I assure you, every time you go to the grocery store or target or the mall, there are people around you carrying.

And kudos to you for not allowing your kid at that house, smart decision.
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Old 03-20-18, 10:07 PM
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Re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

There's already a lawsuit challenging Florida's bump stock ban.

Does anyone here seriously think bump stocks should be legal? I don't think any SCOTUS justice will oppose the ban.
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Old 03-20-18, 11:56 PM
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Re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

Originally Posted by cpgator View Post
At this point I don't think we know if the shooter killed himself or the officer shot him, but either way he did his job and effectively ended the situation. Unless you know of some 100% way of preventing someone walking into a school with a gun, I don't see how you can call the SROs an ineffective stopgap.
Two people were shot by a gunman. A week ago, a student was shot by his teacher in class. A month ago, seventeen teachers and students were murdered without the SRO doing anything. Do you think this counts as effectively protecting students?

And the NRA doesn't block anything - put the blame on our elected officials.
No, I'm going to put the blame on the organization that calls the shots.
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Old 03-21-18, 12:08 AM
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Re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

Originally Posted by creekdipper View Post
What are you having trouble understanding? The shooter was stopped after opening fire. That happens in all school shootings at some point.

The shooter was not deterred from entering the school and opening fire, which is what NRAniks say will happen if there's a Good Guy With A Gun present.

Originally Posted by creekdipper View Post
In any facility, unless there is only one entrance which can be guarded at all times by an armed presence, one armed guard will never sufficiently deter all threats.

Even when all doors are locked, there will always be a time period when people are exiting the building, allowing access inside. And shooters will smuggle weapons into facilities unless detecting systems are operating at each entry.
Yes, creek, we know that. That's exactly why people are arguing that SROs and armed faculty won't prevent school shootings. The only way to do that is to attack the root of the problem: the guns.
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Old 03-21-18, 01:03 AM
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Re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

Originally Posted by Sean O'Hara View Post
That's exactly why people are arguing that SROs and armed faculty won't prevent school shootings. The only way to do that is to attack the root of the problem: the guns.
I agree with all of this except that the root of the problem is guns. I think it's the immediate extension of the problem.

I'd like to see the root and the extension dealt with equally. If hunters and sport shooters want to have guns, they can jump through a few more hoops to do so, for accountability. etc.

Owning a deadly weapon is a big responsibility.

Any way we can get rid of all the extraneous guns is A-OK with me.

Why people choose to solve problems with violence, and how the artificial strength of a weapon like a gun is used as a security blanket is just as important to deal with.

At any rate, I grew up in backwater Portland, (do with that information what you will) and never had a fucking armed guard at my school. I'd like to see us return to that state.
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Old 03-21-18, 01:11 AM
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Re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

Originally Posted by Sean O'Hara View Post
What are you having trouble understanding? The shooter was stopped after opening fire. That happens in all school shootings at some point.

The shooter was not deterred from entering the school and opening fire, which is what NRAniks say will happen if there's a Good Guy With A Gun present.

Yes, creek, we know that. That's exactly why people are arguing that SROs and armed faculty won't prevent school shootings. The only way to do that is to attack the root of the problem: the guns.
You are correct in that the presence of an armed security officer neither discouraged nor prevented the initial attack. But others have pointed out that the officer's presence likely prevented future bloodshed.

As for your point about SRO's not preventing all attacks, see the bolded sentence below (which you quoted in your response). That is exactly what I said:

Originally Posted by creekdipper View Post
I've never heard anyone describe having an armed guard, or multiple armed guards, as a surefire way to prevent shootings. Banks, army bases, and other places with armed security on duty have been victimized. It's not a matter of whether this is the ideal or best strategy to take, but suggesting that advocates of armed security think that having "only two" students wounded is "acceptable" (as opposed to "preferable to having more casualties") is not helpful in the discussion. Even the most stringest laws passed would not solve the problem overnight, so finding ways to provide better security for students until other strategies can take effect is a reasonable course.
And this is where we have serious disagreement. In the quote below, you imply that people who think it acceptable if not also expedient to have armed SRO's present in schools have "low standards" for thinking that preventing an armed threat from doing more damage is a success. And that somehow those who think that way find it "acceptable" that two kids were wounded and the third (the shooter) killed.

Originally Posted by Sean O'Hara View Post
Two kids were shot today. Yes, the SRO stopped the shooter from doing worse, but the presence of an armed man on campus did not deter the shooter, nor did it keep everyone safe. You can only count this as a success if your standards are so low that two students being shot is an acceptable outcome.

But the rest of us will continue to see SROs as an ineffective stopgap that we're forced to rely upon because the NRA keeps blocking sensible gun control measures.
That's doing a great disservice to those who want sensible gun control measures but also think that there are "stopgap" measures that can be effective in the meantime. Not 100% effective, but more effective than having no means of retaliating against a threat. If that's not good enough, name a "gun control" measure that is 100% effective, either immediately or long-term.

I'm not seeing anyone here or elsewhere arguing that armed presence on campus will prevent all shootings. The NRA may be arguing that placing armed people on campuses is the best strategy; that should be debated. I already listed several reasons that arming teachers is a generally bad idea. But to suggest that people find wounded kids "acceptable" just because they warm to the idea of increased armed security on campuses is, IMO, an insulting attack. No one here (that I know of) has suggested that those who don't want any guns on campuses find it "acceptable" to have kids killed who might otherwise have been saved by armed security response. Nor has anyone suggested that those people have "low standards" because they are willing to risk kids' lives going unprotected while legislators work on passing gun control measures. There are extremists on all sides, but there are also people who think that immediate "stopgap" measures are desirable while longer-term solutions are being worked out.

And what about those long-term "solutions?" Will gun control laws prevent all future shootings? Will the military/police go from door to door confiscating all weapons? Are the type of people who shoot up schools likely to voluntarily surrender unregistered weapons? Legislation isn't going to solve the problem overnight nor permanently, but it doesn't mean that we shouldn't pursue it. Likewise, SRO's are an imperfect but potentially effective measure.

As for deterrents, who knows how many attacks may be discouraged or prevented by the presence of armed security? Personal grudges involving bullying, romantic disputes, conflicts with staff, etc. are generally not going to be deterred. But the more random attackers generally are sufficiently sane enough to pick "soft" targets (schools, churches, concerts, public gatherings) with a maximum number of targets with the least resistance. If they are determined to go out on a suicide mission and not come back, they may not care; still, they may want to face as little resistance as possible in order to inflict maximum casualties before being stopped. And they may move on to a different target which offers less resistance, since many of these attackers meticulously plan out their attacks beforehand.

We had a school shooting four miles up the road from where we live a few years ago. Many of the kids I had taught as well as kids of neighbors and fellow church members were in school that day (and heard the gunshots). The gunman was holding the school principal at gunpoint when he was confronted by the SRO who held him at bay and distracted him until county deputies arrived. She had to shoot the fellow when he refused commands to put down his weapon and turned toward her and the deputies just arriving on the scene. The principal is convinced that she is alive due to the presence of the SRO, who may also have saved the lives of other staff as well as students.

Ideal? No. The fellow was deranged and possibly suicidal. The ideal would have been for him to surrender (well, the ideal would have been for it never to have happened in the first place). But was it successful? Yes. And if would still have been somewhat successful if he had been intent on killing as many people as possible but was stopped after inflicting less damage as he might have done. Two wounded kids would be better than fourteen dead kids. Not ideal, but better than the alternative.

People can be angry about ineffective legislators and special interest groups who impede progress, but that doesn't mean that they should be dismissive toward allies who want all measures to be considered, including temporary measures. We'll likely never get rid of mental illness, anger, jealousy, poor impulse control, etc....or all guns...but we can take all steps to make our communities safer, and that sometimes involves those "stopgap" measures while the farther-reaching but slower-to-enact measures are being formulated and carried out.
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Old 03-21-18, 01:24 AM
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Re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

If you want to see what a SRO can do in such a case, here's a link to the story of the school shooting mentioned above. It contains a Youtube link showing the dramatic standoff between the SRO and the gunman (armed with two handguns), although the culmination (the shooting of the gunman) is not shown. It's amazing how long the SRO stood with her weapon drawn facing the gunman who had his pistol pointed at her just a few feet away. Audio has a secretary on the phone with a dispatcher describing the situation from the office (they could view most of the confrontation) while waiting for deputies to arrive.

http://www.timesnews.net/Education/2...al-s-worst-day
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Old 03-21-18, 06:56 AM
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Re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

Originally Posted by cpgator View Post
Keep in mind there are only a few places that are 'gun free zones', like schools and other govt buildings. If you bring a gun into these places you can be charged with a crime. So then every other place is a 'gun zone' by that definition, though private companies can prohibit firearms if they choose.
And I assure you, every time you go to the grocery store or target or the mall, there are people around you carrying.

And kudos to you for not allowing your kid at that house, smart decision.
I understand that. But also not the question I asked. I live in Texas. I'm sure there are people packing at a lot of places. My question was, how do I have a comfort level that they know what they are doing with a gun? If they pull that gun will it be appropriate? How do I know they know what to do?
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Old 03-21-18, 07:06 AM
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Re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

Originally Posted by Kurtie Dee View Post
I agree with all of this except that the root of the problem is guns. I think it's the immediate extension of the problem.

I'd like to see the root and the extension dealt with equally. If hunters and sport shooters want to have guns, they can jump through a few more hoops to do so, for accountability. etc.

Owning a deadly weapon is a big responsibility.

Any way we can get rid of all the extraneous guns is A-OK with me.

Why people choose to solve problems with violence, and how the artificial strength of a weapon like a gun is used as a security blanket is just as important to deal with.

At any rate, I grew up in backwater Portland, (do with that information what you will) and never had a fucking armed guard at my school. I'd like to see us return to that state.
To me, is clear at this point that the NRA is nothing more than a sales organization. Literally everything they do, their solution to everying is "more people with more guns". They have brainwashed their members into believing "if it's not more, then they will come for yours".

As someone mentioned, they are suing over bump stocks in Florida. Something even they said should be looked at after Vegas. But they have painted themselves in a corner with the slippery slope idea among their members. They have to fight it. And win or lose, they win. If they win and bump stocks can be sold they will claim "victory for the 2nd Ammendment". If they lose, they will use it as a rally cry against those politians that "turned on responsible gun owners".

The NRA's success is evidenced by the part I bolded. Even in countries (most) and states here with strict gun laws, responsible gun owners get the guns they need for their sport, hobby or whatever. It just takes more work to get them.

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Old 03-21-18, 07:51 AM
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Re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

http://huffp.st/NeRyvxf

Kid calls congress-person and talks to staffer. Kid drops F-Bomb in conversation. Congress person calls school and has kids suspended.

Well played politian, well played. Guess the conservative, gun rights advocate expected to have a safe place with no “dirty words”.

If you don’t want to read the article the kid told the staffer “...they need to get off their F-asses and pass...”

Politician is being more a dick than the kid (by far). The politian said “welcome to a world where words matter”. Of course the kid noted “I’ll be old enough to vote in November”.
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Old 03-21-18, 07:57 AM
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Re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

Originally Posted by Sean O'Hara View Post
Two people were shot by a gunman. A week ago, a student was shot by his teacher in class. A month ago, seventeen teachers and students were murdered without the SRO doing anything. Do you think this counts as effectively protecting students?

No, I'm going to put the blame on the organization that calls the shots.
Not in all cases like the FL shooting, but yes, armed officers can be effective at stopping or preventing shootings. I don't see them at the only solution, but I mean, that is kinda the point of the police. But hey, if you know of something that prevents gun violence 100%, then that is amazing and you should share your ideas.

And I'm sure the people actually making the laws appreciate your misdirected blame.
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Old 03-21-18, 08:06 AM
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Re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

Originally Posted by Sdallnct View Post
I understand that. But also not the question I asked. I live in Texas. I'm sure there are people packing at a lot of places. My question was, how do I have a comfort level that they know what they are doing with a gun? If they pull that gun will it be appropriate? How do I know they know what to do?
Sorry, I thought that question was more rhetorical. But to answer your question, there is no way to know with any certainty that someone with a gun knows 'what to do'.
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Old 03-21-18, 08:11 AM
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Re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

Originally Posted by cpgator View Post
Sorry, I thought that question was more rhetorical. But to answer your question, there is no way to know with any certainty that someone with a gun knows 'what to do'.
How do police, military and security officers know?
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Old 03-21-18, 08:12 AM
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Re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

Originally Posted by Sdallnct View Post
http://huffp.st/NeRyvxf

Kid calls congress-person and talks to staffer. Kid drops F-Bomb in conversation. Congress person calls school and has kids suspended.

Well played politian, well played. Guess the conservative, gun rights advocate expected to have a safe place with no “dirty words”.

If you don’t want to read the article the kid told the staffer “...they need to get off their F-asses and pass...”

Politician is being more a dick than the kid (by far). The politian said “welcome to a world where words matter”. Of course the kid noted “I’ll be old enough to vote in November”.
I don't get why the school would get involved and suspend the student. But yeah, words have consequences and now the kid knows (though that shouldn't have been the consequence).
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Old 03-21-18, 08:13 AM
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Re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

Originally Posted by Draven View Post
How do police, military and security officers know?
If you are trying to make a point, just make it. Don't be shy.
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Old 03-21-18, 08:19 AM
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Re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

Originally Posted by cpgator View Post
If you are trying to make a point, just make it. Don't be shy.
You said there is no way to know if a person with a gun knows what they are doing.

But of course there is, as we trust police and military personnel with guns.
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Old 03-21-18, 08:43 AM
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Re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

Originally Posted by cpgator View Post
Sorry, I thought that question was more rhetorical. But to answer your question, there is no way to know with any certainty that someone with a gun knows 'what to do'.
Well while I knew most likely what you would say, I honestly wasn't being snooty.

To me that is a vey odd thing. It doesn't "feel" right. "We don't know if those that carrying a gun are responsible or not, are trained or not, would know what to do in a particular situation or not, HOWEVER, that is perfectly ok." Even encouraged (by having less gun free zones).
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Old 03-21-18, 08:53 AM
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Re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

Originally Posted by cpgator View Post
Not in all cases like the FL shooting, but yes, armed officers can be effective at stopping or preventing shootings. I don't see them at the only solution, but I mean, that is kinda the point of the police. But hey, if you know of something that prevents gun violence 100%, then that is amazing and you should share your ideas.
I know that sleeping in your patrol car is not a deterrent.
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Old 03-21-18, 12:16 PM
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Re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

Originally Posted by Sdallnct View Post
Well while I knew most likely what you would say, I honestly wasn't being snooty.

To me that is a vey odd thing. It doesn't "feel" right. "We don't know if those that carrying a gun are responsible or not, are trained or not, would know what to do in a particular situation or not, HOWEVER, that is perfectly ok." Even encouraged (by having less gun free zones).
I get what you are saying, but people that are legally carrying firearms are the very least of our issues with gun violence. And have nothing to do with these mass shootings at school.
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Old 03-21-18, 12:29 PM
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Re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

Originally Posted by cpgator View Post
I get what you are saying, but people that are legally carrying firearms are the very least of our issues with gun violence. And have nothing to do with these mass shootings at school.
I agree with you. But only to an extent. Most of these people legally bought their guns. And were perfectly legal in what they did with them. Right up until they shot someone. The shooter in Vegas did not have a conceal carry. But Vegas has open carry.

Anyway, I agree that someone with a conceal carry has not done a mass shooting as we have discussed (meaning walking around Target or whatever). Though I haven't looked to see if any of the mass shooters were licensed for conceal carry. In most cases I don't think there was anything from preventing getting one if they wanted.

But yea, I strayed off point a bit.
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Old 03-21-18, 01:55 PM
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Re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

Originally Posted by Draven View Post
You said there is no way to know if a person with a gun knows what they are doing.

But of course there is, as we trust police and military personnel with guns.
So..... what are you suggesting? Anyone with a gun goes through the same training as military and police?

And btw, there is an entire thread here about the mistrust of the police.
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Old 03-21-18, 01:56 PM
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Re: Mass Shootings [Merged]

http://www.newsweek.com/man-viral-fa...t-abuse-853670

Dude decided to turn in his guns to police. Starts getting threats from gun owners (I guess to show him he needs a gun against threats?). Even comments about his daughter.

Guess that’s a thing....
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