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Official Trump Presidency Thread, Part 2

Old 08-30-18, 03:00 PM
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Re: Official Trump Presidency Thread, Part 2

Originally Posted by dex14 View Post
I thought we were doing well financially?
We are spending well, at a time of no major crisis (except for Trump) and no major war.
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Old 08-30-18, 03:04 PM
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Re: Official Trump Presidency Thread, Part 2

Originally Posted by B5Erik View Post
Look, if they can do it in fucking MEXICO without disenfranchising anyone (everyone who wants to vote can EASILY get a Voter ID card there), then we can easily do it here without disenfranchising anyone.

That's a bogus argument.

The REAL argument is that you believe that some people will make it unreasonably hard for some groups to get Voter ID cards. THAT cannot be allowed. The Feds should step in if it does and arrest people for violating civil rights.

You don't throw out good, reasonable ideas that are successfully implemented in most other countries just because you believe there will be corruption here. You just fight the corruption and arrest those who break the law. And give them stiff prison terms. Vigorous enforcement will stop that kind of thing cold.
You used a lot of words to ignore my question. If voter fraud is a rounding error, but the attempts to disenfranchise voters is an actual and documented problem, why are you so concerned with voter fraud? Why do you think this is such an important issue? Hmmm, I wonder if it's because you're buying into the manufactured Republican outrage that is used to actually deny the rights of Americans to vote.

Meanwhile, the Republicans try to pass voter ID measures, and IGNORE all the reports of Diebold electronic voter machines lacking security and being easily hacked. They also don't want backup paper ballots to confirm those machine tallies. Hmm, I wonder why that is?
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Old 08-30-18, 03:10 PM
  #19053  
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Re: Official Trump Presidency Thread, Part 2

Originally Posted by spainlinx0 View Post
You used a lot of words to ignore my question. If voter fraud is a rounding error, but the attempts to disenfranchise voters is an actual and documented problem, why are you so concerned with voter fraud? Why do you think this is such an important issue? Hmmm, I wonder if it's because you're buying into the manufactured Republican outrage that is used to actually deny the rights of Americans to vote.

Meanwhile, the Republicans try to pass voter ID measures, and IGNORE all the reports of Diebold electronic voter machines lacking security and being easily hacked. They also don't want backup paper ballots to confirm those machine tallies. Hmm, I wonder why that is?
I always thought that it was telling that Republicans never talk about possible fraud in absentee ballots. Seems like they would be as susceptible to fraudulent votes if not more susceptible as voting in person at a polling place? How would one present an ID to vote absentee?
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Old 08-30-18, 03:14 PM
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Re: Official Trump Presidency Thread, Part 2

The Boston Globe is the enemy of the people. Gee, I wonder where he got that from?

California man charged with threatening to kill Boston Globe employees
“You’re the enemy of the people, and we’re going to kill every f------ one of you,” said man accused of making 14 threatening calls to the newspaper.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...loyees-n905081
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Old 08-30-18, 03:20 PM
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Re: Official Trump Presidency Thread, Part 2

I am not personally so bothered by Trump's actual policies or the party's legislation at the moment.

What bothers me about Trump is his personality and conduct, more than anything. "Tone at the top" is a well established concept in organization governance, and it applies just as well to leadership in government as any business. His daily displays of ignorance, malice, and falsehoods are doing damage to this country. He is laying the groundwork for a future where people realize you can do or say nearly anything so long as you are on the right team. They'll have your back; and not just that, they'll construct an alternate reality to accommodate you.

And his discourse is infecting the minds of a lot of people. His assaults on truth and the free press, endorsement of conspiracy theories, and deep and unending cynicism about the integrity of his own agencies are being played on repeat in a twisted feedback loop with his supporters. Most concerning is that only a few years ago so many who support him saw him for what he was, a joke and a con artist, but are now building an entire worldview around his falsehoods and fragile ego.

Untangling that twisted mess isn't something that will just happen. This has been building for decades now, among a party that even today has failed to wrestle with the fact that the last time they held this degree of power we invaded a country based on lies and ignited a powder keg that destabilized the already fragile balance of power in the middle east. It was only a decade ago the entire financial industry collapsed under the weight of a massive delusion and web of lies. Trumpism is this same principle broadly applied to our entire political system.
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Old 08-30-18, 03:33 PM
  #19056  
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Re: Official Trump Presidency Thread, Part 2

Originally Posted by spainlinx0 View Post
you used a lot of words to ignore my question. If voter fraud is a rounding error, but the attempts to disenfranchise voters is an actual and documented problem, why are you so concerned with voter fraud? Why do you think this is such an important issue?
1960
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Old 08-30-18, 03:36 PM
  #19057  
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Re: Official Trump Presidency Thread, Part 2

Cool, there's reports of targeted hacking of voting machines being a factor which led to the election of Trump. So I'll take your 1960 and raise you a 2016.
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Old 08-30-18, 03:38 PM
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Re: Official Trump Presidency Thread, Part 2

Originally Posted by Psi View Post
I am not as pessimistic as some, to think that we will never recover from Trump, but I also don't think it will happen the day after he leaves. Some of the shit he did and does will take months and years to repair...
Which is what I've been saying. It may take 18 months, but much of what Trump has done will be undone in that time.

...in particular the national debt (massive tax cuts without a corresponding decrease in spending), rise in bigotry (stupid assholes feeling entitled now), and our relationship with countries around the world (a lot less trust and respect).[/QUOTE]
The national debt was a huge problem long before Trump and it will still be a huge problem when you die.

Bigotry - enforcement, VIGOROUS enforcement of Civil Rights laws will help reduce that.

And our relationships with other countries around the world will change OVERNIGHT when Trump leaves. Those people aren't stupid. They don't believe that Trump really represents the average American or American attitudes. They know he's a buffoon who just captured lightning in a bottle to win an election he didn't even expect to get the nomination for when he started his primary.
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Old 08-30-18, 03:40 PM
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Re: Official Trump Presidency Thread, Part 2

Originally Posted by spainlinx0 View Post
Cool, there's reports of targeted hacking of voting machines being a factor which led to the election of Trump. So I'll take your 1960 and raise you a 2016.
So Voter ID and more secure voting systems are called for.

I'm not a fan of voting systems (electronic connected to the internet, absentee) that make voter fraud easier.
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Old 08-30-18, 03:50 PM
  #19060  
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Re: Official Trump Presidency Thread, Part 2

Originally Posted by B5Erik View Post
So Voter ID and more secure voting systems are called for.

I'm not a fan of voting systems (electronic connected to the internet, absentee) that make voter fraud easier.
And I'm not a fan of Voter ID laws that make voting harder.

BTW : My wife has taken up a new project to make it easier for convicted felons to find out if they're allowed to Vote. I thought that once you're a felon you can never vote again, but I guess that's not the case.
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Old 08-30-18, 03:52 PM
  #19061  
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Re: Official Trump Presidency Thread, Part 2

Originally Posted by Decker View Post
And I'm not a fan of Voter ID laws that make voting harder.

BTW : My wife has taken up a new project to make it easier for convicted felons to find out if they're allowed to Vote. I thought that once you're a felon you can never vote again, but I guess that's not the case.
I'm pretty sure they can re-apply after a certain amount of years after their sentence/probation is over.
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Old 08-30-18, 03:52 PM
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Re: Official Trump Presidency Thread, Part 2

Originally Posted by Decker View Post
And I'm not a fan of Voter ID laws that make voting harder.
If Voter ID laws are so bad why do so many left leaning countries use them?

If it works, and it does, in those countries, please explain why it can't work here.
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Old 08-30-18, 03:56 PM
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Re: Official Trump Presidency Thread, Part 2

I don't know how well voter ID laws work in Mexico. I have never researched it. There could be massive disenfranchisement and corruption going on there. I'm worried about what will work here, and with Republicans behind every major push for voter ID laws, I know what their end game is. They haven't hidden it. We've seen representatives openly stating they don't want "certain people" voting, and by "certain people" they aren't referring to fraudulent voters.
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Old 08-30-18, 04:10 PM
  #19064  
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Re: Official Trump Presidency Thread, Part 2

Originally Posted by B5Erik View Post
If Voter ID laws are so bad why do so many left leaning countries use them?

If it works, and it does, in those countries, please explain why it can't work here.
Don't know about other countries, and don't care -- it's irrelevant. It's not needed here. Voter fraud just isn't an issue.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.00fe4a16fea8

Whenever I go vote, they always ask me for ID. I tell them "I don't need to show you any ID". They say "No, you don't". They ask me my address and date of birth and I give it to them. Of course I have my ID with me, I just want to remind them that while it makes life a tiny bit easier for them, it isn't and shouldn't be required.
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Old 08-30-18, 04:11 PM
  #19065  
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Re: Official Trump Presidency Thread, Part 2

Originally Posted by B5Erik View Post
The national debt was a huge problem long before Trump and it will still be a huge problem when you die.

Bigotry - enforcement, VIGOROUS enforcement of Civil Rights laws will help reduce that.

And our relationships with other countries around the world will change OVERNIGHT when Trump leaves. Those people aren't stupid. They don't believe that Trump really represents the average American or American attitudes. They know he's a buffoon who just captured lightning in a bottle to win an election he didn't even expect to get the nomination for when he started his primary.
I think you oversimplify things. They are not turned on and turned off like that. Regarding the deficitt, you are not paying enough attention.
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Old 08-30-18, 04:11 PM
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Re: Official Trump Presidency Thread, Part 2

Originally Posted by spainlinx0 View Post
I don't know how well voter ID laws work in Mexico. I have never researched it. There could be massive disenfranchisement and corruption going on there. I'm worried about what will work here, and with Republicans behind every major push for voter ID laws, I know what their end game is. They haven't hidden it. We've seen representatives openly stating they don't want "certain people" voting, and by "certain people" they aren't referring to fraudulent voters.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_Identification_laws

Even CANADA requires Voter ID. Like, who's going to commit voter fraud in Canada, eh?

But they still require it...
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Old 08-30-18, 04:12 PM
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Re: Official Trump Presidency Thread, Part 2

Hey, making up bullshit is fun!

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Old 08-30-18, 04:14 PM
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Re: Official Trump Presidency Thread, Part 2

Originally Posted by Psi View Post
I think you oversimplify things. They are not turned on and turned off like that. Regarding the deficitt, you are not paying enough attention.
I've been hearing and reading about the National Debt and Budget Deficits since the early 80's. I probably heard something in the late 70's, too, but it doesn't stand out in my memory.

Point being - we've had massive budget deficits and national debt for decades, and it isn't going away any time soon regardless of who's in the White House.

But what WILL be turned on just like that are better relations with foreign countries the day Trump leaves office. They know he's a buffoon and isn't like the rest of us, and isn't even like other politicians.
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Old 08-30-18, 04:15 PM
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Re: Official Trump Presidency Thread, Part 2

Originally Posted by slop101 View Post
If you're going to post every single stupid tweet Trump or someone from his Administration tweets you're going to have to quit your job, because you won't have time to go to work...
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Old 08-30-18, 04:29 PM
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Re: Official Trump Presidency Thread, Part 2

Originally Posted by slop101 View Post
You can chart it, and he gets more unhinged by the month - he's going to cross a rubicon that even the GOP won't cross with him.
How I wish that were true.
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Old 08-30-18, 04:31 PM
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Re: Official Trump Presidency Thread, Part 2

Originally Posted by B5Erik View Post

Even CANADA requires Voter ID. Like, who's going to commit voter fraud in Canada, eh?

But they still require it...
True, in Canada you need to either show ID or the voter card that was mailed to you. Last time I voted, some old lady showed up with neither and was told she couldn't vote. Man, she was pissed.
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Old 08-30-18, 04:34 PM
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Re: Official Trump Presidency Thread, Part 2

Originally Posted by B5Erik View Post
If Voter ID laws are so bad why do so many left leaning countries use them?

If it works, and it does, in those countries, please explain why it can't work here.
From a History geek perspective, Voter ID laws are basically modern poll taxes. It is one of the reasons they are often struck down by courts.

It is a fundamental constitutional right for people to vote. You don't lose that right because you can't afford $50 or $5 or even 50 cents to get an ID.

Even if getting an ID is free, it requires people to get to the DMV and have enough proof to provide of their residency. Often this is two forms of other ID. Typically a few things showing their address like a credit card, social security card,etc... plus a birth certificate. A lot of homeless people, for example, can't come up with this easily. My wife is a social worker who works with mentally ill people and I cant tell you, some of them don't have that shit stashed in their backpack.

You know what costs money? Getting a replacement birth certificate. Getting to the DMV. Getting an ID.

EVERYONE has a FUNDAMENTAL, CONSTITUTIONAL right to vote. EVERY CITIZEN. Not just people with $20 to get an ID. For someone that was just harping on this a few pages ago about conservative justices, think about this. EVERYONE. There was a fascinating story on Radiolab a while ago about a girl from a fundie religious family that lives in the mountains and her struggle to prove she is a citizen because her family didn't believe in doctors or government and live off the grid.

https://www.wnycstudios.org/story/invisible-girl/

Listen to the struggles she has trying to get her citizenship proven without a signed-off birth certificate available to her.

If you know any actual very poor or homeless people, a lot of them don't have the required paperwork either. Think about gay kids that get kicked out of their house and disowned without their birth certificate, etc. You know how hard it is for them to get some of that stuff? You know what the local county courthouse wants to get a duplicate birth certificate? ID to prove you are you. It's like the "no job because no car because no job" loop that people used to get into so very easily.

The amount of voter fraud that exists, by any measurable standard, is so ridiculously low as to be nonexistent. Because who is gonna risk prison time to cast another vote or two? Not many.

The intent behind voter ID law is clearly to disenfranchise poor (and even more so, poor and minority) voters - if nothing else, the number of times Republicans have been caught basically fessing up to this makes it obvious.

Last edited by GreenMonkey; 08-30-18 at 04:39 PM.
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Old 08-30-18, 04:37 PM
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Re: Official Trump Presidency Thread, Part 2

Originally Posted by B5Erik View Post
I've been hearing and reading about the National Debt and Budget Deficits since the early 80's. I probably heard something in the late 70's, too, but it doesn't stand out in my memory.

Point being - we've had massive budget deficits and national debt for decades, and it isn't going away any time soon regardless of who's in the White House.

But what WILL be turned on just like that are better relations with foreign countries the day Trump leaves office. They know he's a buffoon and isn't like the rest of us, and isn't even like other politicians.
Hi Erik - Budget deficit control is supposed to be a mainstay of the republican party of the last few decades. While I suppose this is a gross over generalization, here is the Historical data on wikipedia the data of which is from the CBO:

Read the section under "Historical Debt Levels"

This chart only goes through the first term of President Obama. And indeed, the debt sharply rose, but I think we know the reason for this.

So, with the majority of the administrations since 1970 being republicans, and the Debt actually reducing in the years the Democratic administration is involved, why do we still have massive budget deficits?

A reminder, President Clintons administration was the only one of these to actually present a balanced budget. Whether this was due to their competence or the market is debatable for sure, I would still like to apply that manner of thinking to Reagan/Bush (es)/Trump. You reading about the deficit for decades is a problem perpetuated by mostly one Party. It not going away, could be considered the result of Republican mismanagement with regards to the best interest of the US. (of course, only my opinion).

*edit to add*

Also, US foreign policy from the early 1970's hurt this country in the world stage ENORMOUSLY with the shenanigans of the Johnson and Nixon administrations. It is my recollection that it was then that the US as an agressor became much more widespread thought in the world. You could see it in the Automobile/Farming and raw materials shift in trade positions as other countries looked elsewhere for their materials. And, while the Middle east always had a distrust of the US because of their support of Israel, by the mid 70's, those actions transitioned into the majority perspectives from those countries. One can argue that we STILL have never recovered our place in the world.

G

Last edited by grip; 08-30-18 at 04:42 PM.
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Old 08-30-18, 04:38 PM
  #19074  
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Re: Official Trump Presidency Thread, Part 2

Originally Posted by B5Erik View Post
I've been hearing and reading about the National Debt and Budget Deficits since the early 80's. I probably heard something in the late 70's, too, but it doesn't stand out in my memory.

Point being - we've had massive budget deficits and national debt for decades, and it isn't going away any time soon regardless of who's in the White House.

But what WILL be turned on just like that are better relations with foreign countries the day Trump leaves office. They know he's a buffoon and isn't like the rest of us, and isn't even like other politicians.
On the deficit, there is a big difference. It used to be mostly the GOP screaming about deficit and debt to justify cutting social benefits when in fact the reduction would have done little compared to other spending. This time the deficit is exploding because we intentionally cut government revenue by huge amounts without anything to offset it. It's like changing to a much lower paying job and still wanting to spend just about the same thing. The equivalency is false.

Regarding foreign relations, it's not just about being on good terms with other countries. It's the damage caused by willy-nilly cancellations of agreements, like the Iran accord, the Climate Change agreement, trade deals and things like that. Other countries don't see the buffoon as just Trump. It's the entire country that looks bad and untrustworthy.
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Old 08-30-18, 04:39 PM
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Re: Official Trump Presidency Thread, Part 2

Originally Posted by B5Erik View Post
If you're going to post every single stupid tweet Trump or someone from his Administration tweets you're going to have to quit your job, because you won't have time to go to work...
What's insane is that I'm not even posting 1% of them.
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