The US Tax Policy Thread
11-20-17, 10:59 AM
#1
DVD Talk Special Edition
Thread Starter
The US Tax Policy Thread
Seem that the issues of taxes weave their way in and out of various threads. I thought it might be time to give them their own.
I thought this article provided a lot of good points about the potential sweeping changes about the tax rewrite. The part about home ownership has me especially concerned, both personally and as a practicing tax preparer for 15+ years.
I thought this article provided a lot of good points about the potential sweeping changes about the tax rewrite. The part about home ownership has me especially concerned, both personally and as a practicing tax preparer for 15+ years.
11-20-17, 11:09 AM
#2
DVD Talk Legend
Re: The US Tax Policy Thread
Originally Posted by JasonX
Seem that the issues of taxes weave their way in and out of various threads. I thought it might be time to give them their own.
I thought this article provided a lot of good points about the potential sweeping changes about the tax rewrite. The part about home ownership has me especially concerned, both personally and as a practicing tax preparer for 15+ years.
I thought this article provided a lot of good points about the potential sweeping changes about the tax rewrite. The part about home ownership has me especially concerned, both personally and as a practicing tax preparer for 15+ years.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...=.9da8d9d64d28
11-20-17, 11:21 AM
#3
Challenge Guru & Comic Nerd
Re: The US Tax Policy Thread
I'll admit to being largely uneducated on this topic, so am open to changing my mind; but with such massive debt why are tax cuts even an option? Balance the budget, pay off the debt, then consider tax cuts.
11-20-17, 11:27 AM
#4
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
Re: The US Tax Policy Thread
I think we need tax cuts, tax simplification (something close to a flat tax with 2 or 3 rates and no to few deductions), and spending cuts .. but no way Congress will do that.
11-20-17, 11:47 AM
#5
DVD Talk Limited Edition
Re: The US Tax Policy Thread
I find it interesting that some in the GOP are publicly saying that if they don't pass tax reform then donations to them will stop.
So these "donations" by supporters were essentially done with the understanding that taxes would be cut and they'd get a "refund" on their "donation" paid for by those who can least afford it.
So much for "public" service....
So these "donations" by supporters were essentially done with the understanding that taxes would be cut and they'd get a "refund" on their "donation" paid for by those who can least afford it.
So much for "public" service....
11-20-17, 12:03 PM
#6
DVD Talk Ultimate Edition
Re: The US Tax Policy Thread
I'm not a fan of corporate taxes myself, it should be kept at a minimum level required to sustain the services they use at that level. Considering the amount of loopholes existing, it really only hurts those that don't exploit the system.
One thing I would like though is to for the government to ban state and local governments from providing incentives to corporations to relocate their headquarters, or open new headquarters. Illinois has given away billions of dollars of state taxes (my money) to corporations to not leave Illinois, and most of those don't require any investment, many times they can layoff and still get the handout.
But I think any tax reform should be revenue neutral. The fact that the top 0.1% have been the main beneficiaries of the recent economic recovery, yet still get the bulk of the benefit of the tax reform is messed up. Any revenue lost by corporate tax reform should be made up by those in the upper tax brackets since they are the ones benefiting the most through their investments.
One thing I would like though is to for the government to ban state and local governments from providing incentives to corporations to relocate their headquarters, or open new headquarters. Illinois has given away billions of dollars of state taxes (my money) to corporations to not leave Illinois, and most of those don't require any investment, many times they can layoff and still get the handout.
But I think any tax reform should be revenue neutral. The fact that the top 0.1% have been the main beneficiaries of the recent economic recovery, yet still get the bulk of the benefit of the tax reform is messed up. Any revenue lost by corporate tax reform should be made up by those in the upper tax brackets since they are the ones benefiting the most through their investments.
11-20-17, 12:22 PM
#7
DVD Talk Special Edition
Thread Starter
Re: The US Tax Policy Thread
Originally Posted by Trevor
I'll admit to being largely uneducated on this topic, so am open to changing my mind; but with such massive debt why are tax cuts even an option? Balance the budget, pay off the debt, then consider tax cuts.
11-20-17, 12:31 PM
#8
DVD Talk Legend
Re: The US Tax Policy Thread
David Frum at the Atlantic, an establishment conservative, is angry that the Republicans aren't doing genuine tax reform, but are using their chance instead to target Democrat voters and give a handout to corporations. In his opinion, good tax reform would be likely to stand, but this will be rolled back as soon as the other party gets into office.
He suggests that the Republicans are doing it because they are expecting to be voted out of office soon, and are setting themselves up for their next jobs as lobbyists for big money corporations.
The rest of the essay: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics...ors_picks=true
He suggests that the Republicans are doing it because they are expecting to be voted out of office soon, and are setting themselves up for their next jobs as lobbyists for big money corporations.
America badly needs corporate tax reform.
The United States pretends to tax corporations heavily. But those heavy tax rates are perforated by randomly generous rules such that many tax-efficient firms pay nothing at all, or even receive money back from the U.S. Treasury. The result is heavy unfairness between industries and firms, an unfairness that many economists believe systematically distorts investment decisions. U.S. productivity growth has been sluggish since the Great Recession—and had actually turned negative by the beginning of 2016.
At the same time, the corporate share of the federal-tax burden has dwindled over the years and decades. More and more of the cost of government now falls upon the payroll tax, which weighs most heavily on low- and middle-income wage earners. These Americans are suffering stagnating incomes, very probably because of the poor productivity growth of the past half-decade.
Lowering the corporate rate while tightening collection—with a view to raising more revenue in a more rational way—has been a good government cause since the late 1980s. John Kerry campaigned on it during his presidential run, in 2004, as NBC News reported at the time:
“Some may be surprised to hear a Democrat calling for lower corporate tax rates,” Kerry told an audience at Wayne State University [in Michigan]. “The fact is, I don’t care about the old debates. I care about getting the job done and creating jobs here in the United States of America.”
Now, in 2017, the all-Republican federal government at last has a chance to make progress on this goal. And it is throwing that opportunity away.
As I write on November 19, it may seem like the GOP tax plans are carrying all before them. A big tax cut has passed the House. A somewhat different plan passed late Thursday night through the Senate Finance Committee. The president is bellowing on Twitter his readiness to sign almost anything that arrives on his desk.
But what is heading toward him is not the kind of reform that can command broad political support, and thus stand the test of possible electoral defeat in 2018 and 2020. It’s a scandalous expression of upper-class and Sunbelt chauvinism that will melt away within weeks of the next Democratic electoral success. Even if the plan becomes law, as still seems improbable in the face of its terrible poll numbers, what firm would venture a long-term investment based on tax changes so likely unsustainable?
The United States pretends to tax corporations heavily. But those heavy tax rates are perforated by randomly generous rules such that many tax-efficient firms pay nothing at all, or even receive money back from the U.S. Treasury. The result is heavy unfairness between industries and firms, an unfairness that many economists believe systematically distorts investment decisions. U.S. productivity growth has been sluggish since the Great Recession—and had actually turned negative by the beginning of 2016.
At the same time, the corporate share of the federal-tax burden has dwindled over the years and decades. More and more of the cost of government now falls upon the payroll tax, which weighs most heavily on low- and middle-income wage earners. These Americans are suffering stagnating incomes, very probably because of the poor productivity growth of the past half-decade.
Lowering the corporate rate while tightening collection—with a view to raising more revenue in a more rational way—has been a good government cause since the late 1980s. John Kerry campaigned on it during his presidential run, in 2004, as NBC News reported at the time:
“Some may be surprised to hear a Democrat calling for lower corporate tax rates,” Kerry told an audience at Wayne State University [in Michigan]. “The fact is, I don’t care about the old debates. I care about getting the job done and creating jobs here in the United States of America.”
Now, in 2017, the all-Republican federal government at last has a chance to make progress on this goal. And it is throwing that opportunity away.
As I write on November 19, it may seem like the GOP tax plans are carrying all before them. A big tax cut has passed the House. A somewhat different plan passed late Thursday night through the Senate Finance Committee. The president is bellowing on Twitter his readiness to sign almost anything that arrives on his desk.
But what is heading toward him is not the kind of reform that can command broad political support, and thus stand the test of possible electoral defeat in 2018 and 2020. It’s a scandalous expression of upper-class and Sunbelt chauvinism that will melt away within weeks of the next Democratic electoral success. Even if the plan becomes law, as still seems improbable in the face of its terrible poll numbers, what firm would venture a long-term investment based on tax changes so likely unsustainable?
11-20-17, 12:44 PM
#9
Banned by request
Re: The US Tax Policy Thread
Originally Posted by PerryD
I'm not a fan of corporate taxes myself, it should be kept at a minimum level required to sustain the services they use at that level. Considering the amount of loopholes existing, it really only hurts those that don't exploit the system.
One thing I would like though is to for the government to ban state and local governments from providing incentives to corporations to relocate their headquarters, or open new headquarters. Illinois has given away billions of dollars of state taxes (my money) to corporations to not leave Illinois, and most of those don't require any investment, many times they can layoff and still get the handout.
But I think any tax reform should be revenue neutral. The fact that the top 0.1% have been the main beneficiaries of the recent economic recovery, yet still get the bulk of the benefit of the tax reform is messed up. Any revenue lost by corporate tax reform should be made up by those in the upper tax brackets since they are the ones benefiting the most through their investments.
One thing I would like though is to for the government to ban state and local governments from providing incentives to corporations to relocate their headquarters, or open new headquarters. Illinois has given away billions of dollars of state taxes (my money) to corporations to not leave Illinois, and most of those don't require any investment, many times they can layoff and still get the handout.
But I think any tax reform should be revenue neutral. The fact that the top 0.1% have been the main beneficiaries of the recent economic recovery, yet still get the bulk of the benefit of the tax reform is messed up. Any revenue lost by corporate tax reform should be made up by those in the upper tax brackets since they are the ones benefiting the most through their investments.
I don't remember which Chinese company it was, Foxconn maybe, that Wisconsin lured with big incentives. Scott Walker and Paul Ryan made a big show of getting the new plant there. Foxconn was only offering to generate 2,000 new jobs or something like that, and with the amount the state spent on incentives they could have hired 50,000 people (I don't have the figures in front of me but it was a shocking difference in the amount Foxconn would hire versus the amount the same incentive money could have hired).
And we should definitely be raising taxes on the top 1%. For some reason Americans have a hard time accepting that the people who make more should pay more, and in the end will still have far more than the vast majority of the country or the world ever will. Why do we suck up to billionaires so much? It makes no sense.
11-20-17, 12:47 PM
#10
DVD Talk Special Edition
Thread Starter
Re: The US Tax Policy Thread
Originally Posted by Nick Danger
David Frum at the Atlantic, an establishment conservative, is angry that the Republicans aren't doing genuine tax reform, but are using their chance instead to target Democrat voters and give a handout to corporations. In his opinion, good tax reform would be likely to stand, but this will be rolled back as soon as the other party gets into office.
11-20-17, 01:05 PM
#11
Re: The US Tax Policy Thread
Originally Posted by Supermallet
Why do we suck up to billionaires so much? It makes no sense.
11-20-17, 01:05 PM
#12
Moderator
Re: The US Tax Policy Thread
Originally Posted by Supermallet
Why do we suck up to billionaires so much? It makes no sense.
I remember one time an older couple who are very well off and I were talking about young people and current realities of student loan debt and they asked about mine. I explained how my payments work and they said it sounded tough. Even I had a split second in that conversation of wondering maybe, just maybe, they'll offer to pay some of that. But you know what? Fantasy is fantasy and I shrugged it off in about 0.25 seconds. We can't let the magic of a delusion take over the reality that this sort of thing isn't going to happen and stop voting for people who do things against our best interests.
This new tax reform is a joke. You're going to cut Medicare to give rich people more money? Are you kidding me?!
11-20-17, 01:16 PM
#13
Banned by request
Re: The US Tax Policy Thread
Originally Posted by story
I honestly believe there is some sort of self delusion in all of this, if even at least at a subconscious level, that someday maybe, just maybe, we will be rich or maybe even they'll give us some of that money, too. It's where dreams meets fantasy and kicks reality out the door.
I remember one time an older couple who are very well off and I were talking about young people and current realities of student loan debt and they asked about mine. I explained how my payments work and they said it sounded tough. Even I had a split second in that conversation of wondering maybe, just maybe, they'll offer to pay some of that. But you know what? Fantasy is fantasy and I shrugged it off in about 0.25 seconds. We can't let the magic of a delusion take over the reality that this sort of thing isn't going to happen and stop voting for people who do things against our best interests.
This new tax reform is a joke. You're going to cut Medicare to give rich people more money? Are you kidding me?!
I remember one time an older couple who are very well off and I were talking about young people and current realities of student loan debt and they asked about mine. I explained how my payments work and they said it sounded tough. Even I had a split second in that conversation of wondering maybe, just maybe, they'll offer to pay some of that. But you know what? Fantasy is fantasy and I shrugged it off in about 0.25 seconds. We can't let the magic of a delusion take over the reality that this sort of thing isn't going to happen and stop voting for people who do things against our best interests.
This new tax reform is a joke. You're going to cut Medicare to give rich people more money? Are you kidding me?!
And yet all the time I see people defending the rich, defending the right of the rich to essentially ruin the country and the planet at our expense. It’s fucking insane.
11-20-17, 01:31 PM
#14
Moderator
Re: The US Tax Policy Thread
Originally Posted by Supermallet
On my drive home from work every day I see a Powerball billboard with the current total available on it.
I'm sorry, what were we talking about again? Waffles? I could go for some waffles.
11-20-17, 01:33 PM
#15
DVD Talk Ultimate Edition
Re: The US Tax Policy Thread
the problem with taxing businesses is that it is a sunk cost that needs to be passed down, so unless there is a real reason for it (like to help build roads, water, electricity, police, fire, etc) that benefits the company, they pass the cost down to the product they are making which means we end up paying for it anyway.
But increasing the top tax bracket on the rich doesn't affect them, if they are making $500k etc, paying an extra $20k or $50k in taxes doesn't affect them, except for the concept of trickle down when they buy a $100k car instead of a $50k car.
The income graphs that show the percentage of income held by the various income brackets over the years shows that everyone is basically flat to negative in all ranges except for the top 0.1%. Something has changed in our generation that has moved all of the new wealth to this exclusive group.
But increasing the top tax bracket on the rich doesn't affect them, if they are making $500k etc, paying an extra $20k or $50k in taxes doesn't affect them, except for the concept of trickle down when they buy a $100k car instead of a $50k car.
The income graphs that show the percentage of income held by the various income brackets over the years shows that everyone is basically flat to negative in all ranges except for the top 0.1%. Something has changed in our generation that has moved all of the new wealth to this exclusive group.
11-20-17, 01:37 PM
#16
DVD Talk Special Edition
Thread Starter
Re: The US Tax Policy Thread
A lot of this is really exemplified by Joe the Plumber. Some guy who was at best middle income was upset because his taxes might be higher should he one day buy a company that might one day increase his income to $250K+. Anyone worried that they might one day have to pay more tax because they are going to see a big windfall, are looking at things in a completely roundabout way that follows no logic. You almost always get more money in your pocket by making more money and paying the corresponding taxes. It's like being upset at winning the lottery because now instead of $50K a year you will be making $300K a year and having to pay tax on that income, without realizing that your income will be almost 4x what it is now.
11-20-17, 01:42 PM
#17
DVD Talk Special Edition
Thread Starter
Re: The US Tax Policy Thread
Originally Posted by PerryD
the problem with taxing businesses is that it is a sunk cost that needs to be passed down, so unless there is a real reason for it (like to help build roads, water, electricity, police, fire, etc) that benefits the company, they pass the cost down to the product they are making which means we end up paying for it anyway.
11-20-17, 01:43 PM
#18
Moderator
Re: The US Tax Policy Thread
Originally Posted by story
I honestly believe there is some sort of self delusion in all of this, if even at least at a subconscious level, that someday maybe, just maybe, we will be rich or maybe even they'll give us some of that money, too. It's where dreams meets fantasy and kicks reality out the door.
Originally Posted by JasonX
A lot of this is really exemplified by Joe the Plumber. Some guy who was at best middle income was upset because his taxes might be higher should he one day buy a company that might one day increase his income to $250K+. Anyone worried that they might one day have to pay more tax because they are going to see a big windfall, are looking at things in a completely roundabout way that follows no logic. You almost always get more money in your pocket by making more money and paying the corresponding taxes. It's like being upset at winning the lottery because now instead of $50K a year you will be making $300K a year and having to pay tax on that income, without realizing that your income will be almost 4x what it is now.
11-20-17, 01:47 PM
#19
Banned by request
Re: The US Tax Policy Thread
Originally Posted by story
Self-delusional fantasy of what might happen someday. People are hungry for wealth, and it doesn't even take true poverty to make that happen. Tomorrow will be better because of money because more money is more security. But the question remains: how much "more" will it take to have "enough"? The concept of "enough" rarely enters these conversations.
11-20-17, 01:56 PM
#20
Moderator
Re: The US Tax Policy Thread
While also being sold harder that we really don't need Medicare and if we cut it that wouldn't ever impact you so just let it happen. You need this not that.
The thing about this tax code reform is it truly feels like it came out of nowhere. I've subscribed to the local paper after the election and read it every day for a year and I don't recall anything about tax reform until the last few weeks. It feels like a manufactured problem.
The thing about this tax code reform is it truly feels like it came out of nowhere. I've subscribed to the local paper after the election and read it every day for a year and I don't recall anything about tax reform until the last few weeks. It feels like a manufactured problem.
11-20-17, 01:58 PM
#21
Banned by request
Re: The US Tax Policy Thread
Tax reform has long been a GOP talking point but has taken a back seat in the last 8 years to Obamacare repeal hysteria and racist dog whistles.
11-20-17, 02:19 PM
#22
Moderator
Re: The US Tax Policy Thread
I feel like I'm coming off as pretty angry in this thread. I am upset about this stuff, but I'm also at home sick with a sick kid and it's been a long weekend. Sorry if I am seeming cranky. I'm off to Minute Clinic.
11-20-17, 02:53 PM
#23
DVD Talk Hero
Re: The US Tax Policy Thread
Originally Posted by PerryD
the problem with taxing businesses is that it is a sunk cost that needs to be passed down, so unless there is a real reason for it (like to help build roads, water, electricity, police, fire, etc) that benefits the company, they pass the cost down to the product they are making which means we end up paying for it anyway.
11-20-17, 03:01 PM
#24
DVD Talk Ultimate Edition
Re: The US Tax Policy Thread
Okay, I understand there are a lot of variables, but I'm just saying in general, added costs that don't have any direct benefit to the business (whether higher taxes, more regulations, etc), there can be only a negative overall effect, whether the cost of product, worker benefits, and sure, dividends, or even whether they need to lay off or shut down.
Whereas, I'm suggesting that you could argue that if you shifted the tax burden from the corporations to the very rich individuals, then it may be a wash to them since they benefit more directly from lower corporate tax rates (like the previously mentioned dividends and stock gains, etc). I'm not sure how much higher the upper tax bracket would have to be to account for reducing the corporate tax rate to 15%.
Plus, it has been debated that one benefit would be less corporations moving to tax havens, or hiding money overseas if there was a lower corporate tax rate here.
Whereas, I'm suggesting that you could argue that if you shifted the tax burden from the corporations to the very rich individuals, then it may be a wash to them since they benefit more directly from lower corporate tax rates (like the previously mentioned dividends and stock gains, etc). I'm not sure how much higher the upper tax bracket would have to be to account for reducing the corporate tax rate to 15%.
Plus, it has been debated that one benefit would be less corporations moving to tax havens, or hiding money overseas if there was a lower corporate tax rate here.
11-20-17, 03:17 PM
#25
Banned by request
Re: The US Tax Policy Thread
Or we could put other penalties in place for companies that want to move most of their money to tax havens while still maintaining a large presence in the United States.
