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Breeding endangered animals for hunting and profit makes their populations bigger

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Breeding endangered animals for hunting and profit makes their populations bigger

Old 10-19-17, 08:55 AM
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Breeding endangered animals for hunting and profit makes their populations bigger

Breeding endangered animals for hunting and profit makes their populations get bigger, not smaller.

Legal hunting is not the same thing as poaching. I am against poaching, and that is not what I am defending.

What I am defending is privately owned ranches that raise endangered animals so they can be hunted for profit. The fees charged to kill these animals are high enough to be able to pay for the care of the other animals. The result is that the populations of these endangered animals gets bigger, not smaller.

I do understand why some people might have emotional objections to this. But even they can’t argue against the real world results of this kind of policy.

I myself am a vegetarian. But I also acknowledge the real world results of this kind of policy.

If the opponents of this kind of legal trophy hunting wanted to bring an end to it, all they would have to do would be to outbid the trophy hunters. As of yet, I don’t see any examples of them having done so.

Here's an article about this topic from the New York Times.

It seems to me that the critics of this policy who are quoted in this article have chosen to completely ignore the real world benefits of this policy.

I have spoilerized the article for size. Also, within the spoilerized article, I have spoilerized the photographs for size.


Spoiler:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/19/u...xas-ranch.html

Blood and Beauty on a Texas Exotic-Game Ranch

October 19, 2017

Spoiler:



A giraffe named Buttercup moved closer to Buck Watson, a hunting guide, as he looks on from a vehicle at the Ox Ranch in Uvalde, Tex.

UVALDE, Tex. — On a ranch at the southwestern edge of the Texas Hill Country, a hunting guide spotted her cooling off in the shade: an African reticulated giraffe. Such is the curious state of modern Texas ranching, that a giraffe among the oak and the mesquite is an everyday sort of thing.

“That’s Buttercup,” said the guide, Buck Watson, 54.

In a place of rare creatures, Buttercup is among the rarest; she is off limits to hunters at the Ox Ranch. Not so the African bongo antelope, one of the world’s heaviest and most striking spiral-horned antelopes, which roams the same countryside as Buttercup. The price to kill a bongo at the Ox Ranch is $35,000.

Himalayan tahrs, wild goats with a bushy lion-style mane, are far cheaper. The trophy fee, or kill fee, to shoot one is $7,500. An Arabian oryx is $9,500; a sitatunga antelope, $12,000; and a black wildebeest, $15,000.

Spoiler:



Zebu from South Asia walk across a dam at the Ox Ranch.

“We don’t hunt giraffes,” Mr. Watson said. “Buttercup will live out her days here, letting people take pictures of her. She can walk around and graze off the trees as if she was in Africa.”

The Ox Ranch near Uvalde, Tex., is not quite a zoo, and not quite an animal shooting range, but something in between.

Spoiler:



Mr. Watson points out a Roan on the Ox Ranch. Roan, originally from Africa, never shed their horns, making them attractive trophies for hunters any time of year.

The ranch’s hunting guides and managers walk a thin, controversial line between caring for thousands of rare, threatened and endangered animals and helping to execute them. Some see the ranch as a place for sport and conservation. Some see it as a place for slaughter and hypocrisy.

The Ox Ranch provides a glimpse into the future of the mythic Texas range — equal parts exotic game-hunting retreat, upscale outdoor adventure, and breeding and killing ground for exotic species.

Ranchers in the nation’s top cattle-raising state have been transforming pasture land into something out of an African safari, largely to lure trophy hunters who pay top-dollar kill fees to hunt exotics. Zebra mares forage here near African impala antelopes, and it is easy to forget that downtown San Antonio is only two hours to the east.

The ranch has about 30 bongo, the African antelopes with a trophy fee of $35,000. Last fall, a hunter shot one. “Taking one paid their feed bill for the entire year, for the rest of them,” said Jason Molitor, the chief executive of the Ox Ranch.

To many animal-protection groups, such management of rare and endangered species — breeding some, preventing some from being hunted, while allowing the killing of others — is not only repulsive, but puts hunting ranches in a legal and ethical gray area.

“Depending on what facility it is, there’s concern when animals are raised solely for profit purposes,” said Anna Frostic, a senior attorney with the Humane Society of the United States.

Hunting advocates disagree and say the breeding and hunting of exotic animals helps ensure species’ survival. Exotic-game ranches see themselves not as an enemy of wildlife conservation but as an ally, arguing that they contribute a percentage of their profits to conservation efforts.

“We love the animals, and that’s why we hunt them,” Mr. Molitor said. “Most hunters in general are more in line with conservation than the public believes that they are.”

Beyond the financial contributions, hunting ranches and their supporters say the blending of commerce and conservation helps save species from extinction.

Spoiler:



Various bovine species, including Watusi cattle and buffalo, eat from a hay drop at the Ox Ranch.

Wildlife experts said there are more blackbuck antelope in Texas than there are in their native India because of the hunting ranches. In addition, Texas ranchers have in the past sent exotic animals, including scimitar-horned oryx, back to their home countries to build up wild populations there.

“Ranchers can sell these hunts and enjoy the income, while doing good for the species,” said John M. Tomecek, a wildlife specialist with the Texas A&M AgriLife Extension Service.

Animal-rights activists are outraged by these ranches. They call what goes on there “canned hunting” or “captive hunting.’’

“Hunting has absolutely nothing to do with conservation,” said Ashley Byrne, the associate director of campaigns for People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals. “What they’re doing is trying to put a better spin on a business that they know the average person finds despicable.”


A 2007 report from Texas A&M University called the exotic wildlife industry in America a billion-dollar industry.

At the Ox Ranch, it shows. The ranch has luxury log cabins, a runway for private planes and a 6,000-square-foot lodge with stone fireplaces and vaulted ceilings. More animals roam its 18,000 acres than roam the Houston Zoo, on a tract of land bigger than the island of Manhattan. The ranch is named for its owner, Brent C. Oxley, 34, the founder of HostGator.com, a web hosting provider that was sold in 2012 for more than $200 million.

Spoiler:



Three kangaroos that live in front of the Ox Ranch lodge are mainly for attraction purposes and are not hunted. They greet arriving guests and are often fed corn by the newcomers and by guides.

“The owner hopes in a few years that we can break even,” Mr. Molitor said.

Because the industry is largely unregulated, there is no official census of exotic animals in Texas. But ranchers and wildlife experts said that Texas has more exotics than any other state. A survey by the state Parks and Wildlife Department in 1994 put the exotic population at more than 195,000 animals from 87 species, but the industry has grown explosively since then; one estimate by John T. Baccus, a retired Texas State University biologist, puts the current total at roughly 1.3 million.

The Ox Ranch needs no local, state or federal permit for most of their exotic animals.

State hunting regulations do not apply to exotics, which can be hunted year-round. The Fish and Wildlife Service allows ranches to hunt and kill certain animals that are federally designated as threatened or endangered species, if the ranches take certain steps, including donating 10 percent of their hunting proceeds to conservation programs.

The ranches are also issued permits to conduct activities that would otherwise be prohibited under the Endangered Species Act if those activities enhance the survival of the species in the wild. Those federal permits make it legal to hunt Eld’s deer and other threatened or endangered species at the Ox Ranch.

Spoiler:



Mr. Watson petted Buttercup the giraffe. Hunters are not allowed to shoot the ranch’s giraffes.

Mr. Molitor said more government oversight was unnecessary and would drive ranchers out of the business. “I ask people, who do you think is going to manage it better, private organizations or the government?” Mr. Molitor said.

Lawyers for conservation and animal-protection groups say that allowing endangered animals to be hunted undermines the Endangered Species Act, and that the ranches’ financial contributions fail to benefit wildlife conservation.


“We ended up with this sort of pay-to-play idea,” said Tanya Sanerib, a senior attorney with the Center for Biological Diversity. “It is absolutely absurd that you can go to a canned-hunt facility and kill an endangered or threatened species.”

Spoiler:



Wildebeest run free on the Ox Ranch’s rangeland.

The creatures are not the only things at the ranch that are exotic. The tanks are, too.

The ranch offers its guests the opportunity to drive and shoot World War II-era tanks. People fire at bullet-ridden cars from atop an American M4 Sherman tank at a shooting range built to resemble a Nazi-occupied French town.

“We knew the gun people would come out,” said Todd DeGidio, the chief executive of DriveTanks.com, which runs the tank operation. “What surprised us was the demographic of people who’ve never shot guns before.”

Late one evening, two hunters, Joan Schaan and her 15-year-old son, Daniel, rushed to get ready for a nighttime hunt, adjusting the SWAT-style night-vision goggles on their heads.

Ms. Schaan is the executive director of a private foundation in Houston. Daniel is a sophomore at St. John’s School, a prestigious private school. They were there not for the exotics, but basically for the pests: feral hogs, which cause hundreds of millions of dollars in damage annually in Texas.

“We are here because we both like to hunt, and we like hunting hogs,” Ms. Schaan said. “And we love the meat and the sausage from the hogs we harvest.”

Pursuing the hogs, Ms. Schaan and her son go off-roading through the brush in near-total darkness, with a hunting guide behind the wheel. Aided by their night-vision goggles, they passed by the giraffes before rattling up and down the hilly terrain.

Daniel fired at hogs from the passenger seat with a SIG Sauer 516 rifle, his spent shell casings flying into the back seat. Their guide, Larry Hromadka, told Daniel when he could and could not take a shot.

No one is allowed to hunt at the ranch without a guide. The guides make sure no one shoots an exotic animal accidentally with a stray bullet, and that no one takes aim at an off-limits creature.

One of the hogs Daniel shot twitched and appeared to still be alive, until Mr. Hromadka approached with his light and his gun.

Hundreds of animals shot at the ranch have ended up in the cluttered workrooms and showrooms at Graves Taxidermy in Uvalde.

Part of the allure of exotic game-hunting is the so-called trophy at the end — the mounted and lifelike head of the animal that the hunter put down. The Ox Ranch is Graves Taxidermy’s biggest customer.

“My main business, of course, is white-tailed deer, but the exotics have kind of taken over,” said Browder Graves, the owner.

He said the animal mounts he makes for people were not so much a trophy on a wall as a symbol of the hunter’s memories of the entire experience. He has a mount of a Himalayan tahr he shot in New Zealand that he said he cannot look at without thinking of the time he spent with his son hunting up in the mountains.

“It’s God’s creature,” he said. “I’m trying to make it look as good as it can.”

Spoiler:



White stags and white elk graze on the ranch at sunset.

Small herds passed by the Jeep being driven by Mr. Watson, the hunting guide. There were white elk and eland, impala and Arabian oryx.

Then the tour came to an unexpected stop. An Asiatic water buffalo blocked the road, unimpressed by the Jeep. The animal was caked with dried mud, an aging male that lived away from the herd.

“The Africans call them dugaboys,” Mr. Watson said. “They’re old lone bulls. They’re so big that they don’t care.”

The buffalo took his time moving. For a moment, at least, he had all the power.



Here's an article on this subject from the Washington Post, which I have also spoilerized for size.

In this case, the particular animal that was chosen to be killed was an old male that had stopped breeding, and was interfering with the younger males who were trying to breed. So killing this particular animal makes the population bigger. And the huge fee that was paid to kill this animal will help to provide care for the other animals.

Spoiler:


http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/s...gged-his-prey/

Texas hunter who paid $350,000 to kill an endangered black rhino has bagged his prey

May 21, 2015

A Namibian black rhinoceros is dead after a days-long hunt by an American man whose $350,000 bid to kill the endangered animal set off an international controversy.

In the final moments Monday, in an undisclosed location in northern Namibia, the fearsome rhino bull came rushing toward Texas hunter Corey Knowlton, local trackers and a CNN camera crew that was invited to document the hunt.

Knowlton took aim and fired two shots with a high-powered rifle from less than 30 feet away, CNN reported.

A third shot was fired and the animal was dead.

It was the end of a saga that began when Knowlton purchased the permit to hunt the animal at a January 2014 auction.

The bull, Knowlton said, was a problem in his own herd. The animal was too old to breed but so aggressive that it had already killed calves, cows and and other male rhinoceroses in a jealous rage.

Prized by poachers, black rhinos are critically endangered; there are fewer than 5,000 of them left on Earth. But the threat to their survival is from outside and within, Knowlton said.

Proponents call it "conservation hunting," the practice of offering hunting opportunities for a fee that can then be used on the conservation effort.

It is a divisive idea, but one that some conservationists have come to support, as The Washington Post reported earlier this year:


In a statement, the International Union for the Conservation of Nature said the concern over killing a rhinoceros for sport is understandable but confuses illegal poaching with well-managed hunting tourism.

“Well-managed trophy hunting has little to do with poaching, and indeed can be a key tool to help combat it,” the union said. Without it, African conservationists “would not be able to employ the upwards of 3,000 field rangers employed to protect wildlife and enforce regulations.”
Knowlton shot the bull "after a three-day hunt through the bush with government officials on hand to ensure he killed the correct animal," AFP reported.

Asked afterward if he still believed his actions benefited the species, Knowlton responded: "100 percent."

"I'm pretty emotional right now, to be honest," he told CNN. "I felt like from day one it was benefiting the black rhino, and I'll feel like that until the day that I die."

He added: "Being on this hunt, with the amount of criticism it brought and the amount of praise it brought from both sides, I don't think it could have brought more awareness to the black rhino."

Knowlton paid a massive sum of money for the permit from the Namibia Ministry of Environment and Tourism, then found himself on the receiving end of death threats. Tens of thousands of people petitioned the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service to prevent him from importing the rhinoceros carcass after the hunt.

"It has been a nightmare," he told The Washington Post late last year.

Ultimately, the Fish and Wildlife Service gave Knowlton the green light -- and the hunt was on.

In its statement announcing the decision, the federal agency noted that hunting specific older bulls that were known to keep cows in the herd from mating with other bulls was necessary to increase the rhino population.

Knowlton let CNN cameras in on the hunt for further vindication.

"At this point, the whole world knows about this hunt and I think it's extremely important that people know it's going down the right way, in the most scientific way that it can possibly happen," he told the network.

He added: "I think people have a problem just with the fact that I like to hunt. ... I want to see the black rhino as abundant as it can be. I believe in the survival of the species."

Still, Knowlton remains the enemy of opponents of conservation hunting.

"I am deeply saddened, disappointed and incredulous that he sees this mission as contributing to the survival of endangered black rhinos," Jeff Flocken, North America regional director for the International Fund for Animal Welfare, said in a statement on Wednesday. "If you pay to take a human life and give to humanitarian causes, it does not make you a humanitarian. And paying money to kill one of the last iconic animals on earth does not make you a conservationist."

As for the rhino Knowlton bagged: Meat from the 3,000 pound animal was taken to a nearby village for food. And Knowlton will import the horns, the hide and body to the U.S. as his hunter's trophy, according to CNN.

"It’s hard to say why hunters value the remains so much — respect, a memorial, the time you had with it, I believe it’s all of that,” Knowlton told The Post months before the hunt. "A hunter’s relationship with wildlife is intimate."
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Old 10-19-17, 09:27 AM
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Re: Breeding endangered animals for hunting and profit makes their populations bigger

Originally Posted by grundle
If the opponents of this kind of legal trophy hunting wanted to bring an end to it, all they would have to do would be to outbid the trophy hunters.
OR just pass a law making breeding for trophy hunting illegal. It's morally reprehensible.
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Old 10-19-17, 09:46 AM
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Re: Breeding endangered animals for hunting and profit makes their populations bigger

This post reminds me of a Tweet:

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">This guy thinks it's cool to kill defenceless animals then take a selfie. Jerk. <a href="http://t.co/WbgMklrd9u">pic.twitter.com/WbgMklrd9u</a></p>&mdash; Chris Tilly (@TillyTweets) <a href="https://twitter.com/TillyTweets/status/608295717417959424?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">June 9, 2015</a></blockquote> <script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">So barbaric that this should still be allowed... No conservation laws in effect wherever this is? <a href="https://t.co/hgavm9IBaM">https://t.co/hgavm9IBaM</a></p>&mdash; Joyce Carol Oates (@JoyceCarolOates) <a href="https://twitter.com/JoyceCarolOates/status/608300696073576448?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">June 9, 2015</a></blockquote> <script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
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Old 10-19-17, 10:35 AM
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Re: Breeding endangered animals for hunting and profit makes their populations bigger

I have no problem with the practice, even though I would never participate myself. However the inescapable fact is that long term, every animal on this ranch will die. Maybe the business will thrive for twenty years, maybe for 120 years, but eventually the business model will fail.

It would probably become a zoo or sell the animals or something, but it's not like these animals could be reintroduced to the wild. The article says some species were reintroduced from the ranch to India, but I'd like to see more evidence of that. Reintroducing an extinct or endangered animal is typically difficult.
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Old 10-19-17, 10:36 AM
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Re: Breeding endangered animals for hunting and profit makes their populations bigger

Originally Posted by VinVega View Post
OR just pass a law making breeding for trophy hunting illegal. It's morally reprehensible.
We breed animals just to slaughter and eat them.
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Old 10-19-17, 10:48 AM
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Re: Breeding endangered animals for hunting and profit makes their populations bigger

Originally Posted by Mabuse View Post
We breed animals just to slaughter and eat them.
They're not eating these animals.
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Old 10-19-17, 10:51 AM
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Re: Breeding endangered animals for hunting and profit makes their populations bigger

Originally Posted by VinVega View Post
OR just pass a law making breeding for trophy hunting illegal. It's morally reprehensible.

Do you at least admit that the practice has caused an increase in the populations of these endangered species?

And if you think that breeding animals for trophy hunting in the large, vast, expanse open ranges shown in the photographs in the New York Times article is morally reprehensible, then what do you think of factory farming of animals in crowded, cramped, uncomfortable conditions for human consumption?
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Old 10-19-17, 10:57 AM
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Re: Breeding endangered animals for hunting and profit makes their populations bigger

Originally Posted by mspmms View Post
This post reminds me of a Tweet:

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">This guy thinks it's cool to kill defenceless animals then take a selfie. Jerk. <a href="http://t.co/WbgMklrd9u">pic.twitter.com/WbgMklrd9u</a></p>&mdash; Chris Tilly (@TillyTweets) <a href="https://twitter.com/TillyTweets/status/608295717417959424?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">June 9, 2015</a></blockquote> <script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">So barbaric that this should still be allowed... No conservation laws in effect wherever this is? <a href="https://t.co/hgavm9IBaM">https://t.co/hgavm9IBaM</a></p>&mdash; Joyce Carol Oates (@JoyceCarolOates) <a href="https://twitter.com/JoyceCarolOates/status/608300696073576448?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">June 9, 2015</a></blockquote> <script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Ha ha! Triceratops. Some people don't know it went extinct 65 million years ago.

There are plenty of conservation laws in effect for endangered species in Africa. But that has not stopped their populations from falling substantially.

By comparison, the populations of endangered African animals on these legal trophy hunting ranches have been getting bigger and bigger.

Do you think this is a good idea or a bad idea?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trophy_hunting

A 2005 paper by Nigel Leader-Williams and colleagues in the Journal of International Wildlife Law and Policy asserted that the legalization of white rhinoceros hunting in South Africa motivated private landowners to reintroduce the species onto their lands. As a result, white rhinos increased from fewer than one hundred individuals to more than 11,000.

Last edited by grundle; 10-19-17 at 11:03 AM.
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Old 10-19-17, 10:58 AM
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Re: Breeding endangered animals for hunting and profit makes their populations bigger

Originally Posted by Mabuse View Post
I have no problem with the practice, even though I would never participate myself. However the inescapable fact is that long term, every animal on this ranch will die. Maybe the business will thrive for twenty years, maybe for 120 years, but eventually the business model will fail.

It would probably become a zoo or sell the animals or something, but it's not like these animals could be reintroduced to the wild. The article says some species were reintroduced from the ranch to India, but I'd like to see more evidence of that. Reintroducing an extinct or endangered animal is typically difficult.

Humans have been breeding animals for thousands of years. Can you name one example where it eventually failed, after having been done successfully?
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Old 10-19-17, 11:02 AM
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Re: Breeding endangered animals for hunting and profit makes their populations bigger

Originally Posted by VinVega View Post
They're not eating these animals.

The ones in Texas (New York Times article) may or may not be eaten, depending upon the preference of the hunter. There are lots of people in the U.S. who eat American deer, who would probably have no problem eating its various close relatives from Africa.

But the ones in Africa (Washington Post article) are definitely eaten, regardless of what kind of animal it is.
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Old 10-19-17, 11:06 AM
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Re: Breeding endangered animals for hunting and profit makes their populations bigger

Originally Posted by grundle View Post
Do you at least admit that the practice has caused an increase in the populations of these endangered species?
The numbers are up, so what? I think I might be ok with it, if they were eating the meat, or giving it to a soup kitchen.

And if you think that breeding animals for trophy hunting in the large, vast, expanse open ranges shown in the photographs in the New York Times article is morally reprehensible, then what do you think of factory farming of animals in crowded, cramped, uncomfortable conditions for human consumption?
I guess you could have 350 million Americans running around the country with rifles shooting their dinner. The NRA would love that.
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Old 10-19-17, 11:18 AM
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Re: Breeding endangered animals for hunting and profit makes their populations bigger

Originally Posted by grundle View Post
Humans have been breeding animals for thousands of years. Can you name one example where it eventually failed, after having been done successfully?
My point is that you keep harping on this idea that the numbers are up, the numbers are up!!! But long term it doesn't save the animal. They can't reintroduce these bred animals into the wild. These hunting preserves will not save the species in the wild. And these individual ranches in Texas will in all likelihood not be run forever in perpetuity.

These Texas ranchers have not built Noah's ark.
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Old 10-19-17, 12:39 PM
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Re: Breeding endangered animals for hunting and profit makes their populations bigger

Originally Posted by grundle View Post
Ha ha! Triceratops. Some people don't know it went extinct 65 million years ago.
I know, right? Can you imagine being the sort of person who believes plainly incorrect things just because you read it on the internet and didn't approach the story with any skepticism? Crazy!
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Old 10-19-17, 01:08 PM
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Re: Breeding endangered animals for hunting and profit makes their populations bigger

Originally Posted by grundle View Post
Ha ha! Triceratops. Some people don't know it went extinct 65 million years ago.
I could have sworn there was a pair on Noah's Ark, right next to the Master Dogs.

Last edited by inri222; 10-19-17 at 01:28 PM.
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Old 10-19-17, 01:43 PM
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Re: Breeding endangered animals for hunting and profit makes their populations bigger

Originally Posted by VinVega View Post
The numbers are up, so what? I think I might be ok with it, if they were eating the meat, or giving it to a soup kitchen.


I guess you could have 350 million Americans running around the country with rifles shooting their dinner. The NRA would love that.

The ranches in Africa feed 100% of the meat to people.

The ranch in Texas may or may not feed the meat to people, depending on the preferences of the hunters. Lots of people in the U.S. eat American deer, and I doubt they'd have any problem eating the African animals that are related to deer.

These hunters aren't "running around." They are on a privately owned ranch where there are very strict rules.

Based on the photographs in the New York Times article, I'd say these animals are treated far better than the cows, chickens, and pigs that are raised in factory farms.
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Old 10-19-17, 01:48 PM
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Re: Breeding endangered animals for hunting and profit makes their populations bigger

Originally Posted by Mabuse View Post
My point is that you keep harping on this idea that the numbers are up, the numbers are up!!! But long term it doesn't save the animal. They can't reintroduce these bred animals into the wild. These hunting preserves will not save the species in the wild. And these individual ranches in Texas will in all likelihood not be run forever in perpetuity.

These Texas ranchers have not built Noah's ark.

The New York Times article says:

"Texas ranchers have in the past sent exotic animals, including scimitar-horned oryx, back to their home countries to build up wild populations there"

So the Texas ranchers are helping to save the wild populations.

Let's the say the wild population of an animal species was to go extinct. Would it be a good thing, or a bad thing, if there were still living specimens on ranches?
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Old 10-19-17, 01:50 PM
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Re: Breeding endangered animals for hunting and profit makes their populations bigger

Originally Posted by grundle View Post
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trophy_hunting

A 2005 paper by Nigel Leader-Williams and colleagues in the Journal of International Wildlife Law and Policy asserted that the legalization of white rhinoceros hunting in South Africa motivated private landowners to reintroduce the species onto their lands. As a result, white rhinos increased from fewer than one hundred individuals to more than 11,000.

Can anyone here explain to me why this is a bad thing.
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Old 10-19-17, 05:25 PM
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Re: Breeding endangered animals for hunting and profit makes their populations bigger

Originally Posted by grundle View Post
Ha ha! Triceratops. Some people don't know it went extinct 65 million years ago.
Joyce Carol Oates (a writer)

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Mississippians read your tweet. How’s that working out for your mentions?</p>&mdash; Hunter Kinniburgh (@HuntKinniburgh) <a href="https://twitter.com/HuntKinniburgh/status/920676002279276544?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">October 18, 2017</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script><blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-conversation="none" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">You're about to get a fantastic lesson in how Mississippians feel about being called illiterate. Enjoy the experience</p>&mdash; Evan Ellington (@evans_ellington) <a href="https://twitter.com/evans_ellington/status/920677748720488448?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">October 18, 2017</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-conversation="none" data-lang="en"><p lang="und" dir="ltr">.<a href="https://twitter.com/JoyceCarolOates?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@JoyceCarolOates</a> <a href="https://t.co/dpu1qUHtaW">pic.twitter.com/dpu1qUHtaW</a></p>&mdash; Widowmaker on Attack (@Jezi_Belle) <a href="https://twitter.com/Jezi_Belle/status/920692270231445504?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">October 18, 2017</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-conversation="none" data-lang="en"><p lang="und" dir="ltr"> <a href="https://t.co/oQjFsl9Qgw">pic.twitter.com/oQjFsl9Qgw</a></p>&mdash; Amelia (@koolaidpickle) <a href="https://twitter.com/koolaidpickle/status/920674697796292608?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">October 18, 2017</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
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Old 10-19-17, 05:28 PM
  #19  
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Re: Breeding endangered animals for hunting and profit makes their populations bigger

Originally Posted by grundle View Post
Ha ha! Triceratops. Some people don't know it went extinct 65 million years ago.
Impossible when the earth is only 6000 years old.
Checkmate, nerds.
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Old 10-19-17, 06:06 PM
  #20  
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Re: Breeding endangered animals for hunting and profit makes their populations bigger

Mississippi has a rich and learned literary history, but I have to laugh at them claiming Richard Wright with pride.
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Old 10-19-17, 07:10 PM
  #21  
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Re: Breeding endangered animals for hunting and profit makes their populations bigger

They sure love their Pink Floyd.
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Old 10-20-17, 01:18 PM
  #22  
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Re: Breeding endangered animals for hunting and profit makes their populations bigger

Originally Posted by JasonF View Post
Mississippi has a rich and learned literary history, but I have to laugh at them claiming Richard Wright with pride.
I know but Joyce Carol Oates just needs to stop:

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">&amp; what of highly educated, cultured blacks (like brilliant Jean Toomer) writing of illiterate, barely articulate Southern Negroes? <a href="https://t.co/1ddWRYGdEs">https://t.co/1ddWRYGdEs</a></p>&mdash; Joyce Carol Oates (@JoyceCarolOates) <a href="https://twitter.com/JoyceCarolOates/status/920271558043676672?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">October 17, 2017</a></blockquote> <script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-conversation="none" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Say what?</p>&mdash; Mimi (@greengoddess11) <a href="https://twitter.com/greengoddess11/status/921416472139792384?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">October 20, 2017</a></blockquote> <script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-conversation="none" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">What the hell?</p>&mdash; Eddie S. Glaude Jr. (@esglaude) <a href="https://twitter.com/esglaude/status/921353787985616896?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">October 20, 2017</a></blockquote> <script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-conversation="none" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Joyce. <br>May I call you Joyce? <br>Listen, Joyce:<br>Delete this.</p>&mdash; Molly Priddy (@mollypriddy) <a href="https://twitter.com/mollypriddy/status/921400126597349378?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">October 20, 2017</a></blockquote> <script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
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Old 11-16-17, 05:08 AM
  #23  
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Re: Breeding endangered animals for hunting and profit makes their populations bigger

I'm bumping this thread because this topic was just raised in a different thread, and I don't want that other thread to go off topic.
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Old 11-16-17, 09:44 AM
  #24  
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Re: Breeding endangered animals for hunting and profit makes their populations bigger

Wow, how helpful.

Which thread?
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Old 11-16-17, 11:58 AM
  #25  
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Re: Breeding endangered animals for hunting and profit makes their populations bigger

Originally Posted by Mabuse View Post
Wow, how helpful.

Which thread?
The Trump thread, where grundle defended the administration's removal of the ban on importing elephant hunting tropihies by claiming it actually helps elephant populations grow (it doesn't):

Originally Posted by grundle View Post
The article states:

I agree with this, and I even started a thread on it some time ago:

https://forum.dvdtalk.com/religion-p...ns-bigger.html
Originally Posted by JasonF View Post
Your theory is bullshit, and to the surprise of few, the Trump administration is peddling bullshit.

https://news.nationalgeographic.com/...babwe-namibia/
Originally Posted by grundle View Post
When it's done properly, it works. And I posted real world examples in the thread.

Your article cites examples that were not done properly. So of course they didn't work.
So let's break this down:

Trump lifts the ban on trophies, which will lead to more elephants being killed

grundle claims that it helps grow the elephant population

I point out actual studies that have shown declining elephant populations in countries that allow elephant hunting

grundle claims those don't count because they're doing it wrong, with no further elaboration

grundle ignores the fact that his hypothetical theory is rebutted by actual real-world experience.
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