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Religion, Politics and World Events They make great dinner conversation, don't you think? plus Political Film

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Old 10-09-17, 04:40 PM   #1
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The General LBGTQ rights (or lack of) thread.

Several have mentioned the Transgender Bathroom thread was getting way off topic. And since I contributed to that off-topicness, I thought I'd start a more general "rights" thread.

Figure we can still use individual specific threads where appropriate (I'm sure Texas and other states will try to tell transgender people where they are allowed to pee again). But we can use this thread for everything else.

After much gains towards equal rights, many of those gains are attempting to be rolled back. And discrimination seems to be on the rise...or at least reports of such seem to be on the rise.

If more discussion on our friend and pal the Colorado Cake Baker happens it can happen here. And I'm sure there will be more as the case is heard by the SC.

Here is an example of one such right attempting to be rolled back (I posted in the other thread),

http://www.newsweek.com/trump-doj-fi...essions-673398

The case involves a person being fired from his job for being gay. The EEOC had previously briefed the court that this is not allowed due to Title VII of the Equal Rights Law. But now the current DOJ has filed a brief that Title VII does not apply and thus ok to fire someone for simply being gay.
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Old 10-09-17, 04:42 PM   #2
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Re: The General LBGTQ rights (or lack of) thread.

Good idea to create a separate thread.
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Old 10-09-17, 05:19 PM   #3
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Re: The General LBGTQ rights (or lack of) thread.

It was the Lena Dunham picture - wasn't it? (sorry)
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Old 10-09-17, 08:54 PM   #4
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Re: The General LBGTQ rights (or lack of) thread.

Can I ask an ignorant question (meaning it is an honest question stemming from my ignorance)?

I know what LGBTQ stands for ... but what exactly are the distinctions? Transgender is obvious, but aren't the rest essentially the same thing? Why do we need an acronym that puts the military to shame? (That was a witty comment about the military and acronyms, not a comment about military enlistment policies.)
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Old 10-09-17, 09:15 PM   #5
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Re: The General LBGTQ rights (or lack of) thread.

Fuck yes! Anyone who wants to live alternativeley should be afforded that respect.
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Old 10-09-17, 09:30 PM   #6
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Re: The General LBGTQ rights (or lack of) thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abob Teff View Post
Can I ask an ignorant question (meaning it is an honest question stemming from my ignorance)?

I know what LGBTQ stands for ... but what exactly are the distinctions? Transgender is obvious, but aren't the rest essentially the same thing? Why do we need an acronym that puts the military to shame? (That was a witty comment about the military and acronyms, not a comment about military enlistment policies.)
Part of the reason distinctions happened is because of the sexism inherent in American society. Lesbians in the early "gay rights" movement resented being expected to do the secretarial and other low-level functions while the gay guys were out in front and basically ignored lesbian issues. Mind you, I don't agree with lesbian separatism and have taken plenty of heat for it over the years, but that's because I am a flirtatious party girl who likes to dish with the queens.

Also, bisexuals want distinction for their identity because too many straight people assume that if you're bi you should just concentrate on your "straight side," so to speak. For the record, I've met very few truly bisexual people. Most LG, myself included, identified as bi as a sort of bridge to the full LG identity. I'm not saying there AREN'T genuinely bisexual people ... just what I've seen.

Transpeople want distinction for their identity because sexual orientation and gender identity are two different things. People who say "why can't you just identify as gay" are missing the point.
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Old 10-10-17, 01:54 AM   #7
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Re: The General LBGTQ rights (or lack of) thread.

Thank you Vibs ... that was about what I expected. What about the Q? That's the one that has me perplexed. (I was going to say "confused" but the context may be a bit amusing.)
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Old 10-10-17, 02:18 AM   #8
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Re: The General LBGTQ rights (or lack of) thread.

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Originally Posted by Abob Teff View Post
Thank you Vibs ... that was about what I expected. What about the Q? That's the one that has me perplexed. (I was going to say "confused" but the context may be a bit amusing.)
Good luck with this one, man. I like to think I'm a pretty strong ally, but when I hear someone say "I'm not gay (or bi), I'm queer" I'm scratching my head a bit. And hell, it's all ok by me (aka, not that there's anything wrong with that), I just wonder what they mean.
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Old 10-10-17, 02:24 AM   #9
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Re: The General LBGTQ rights (or lack of) thread.

My personal opinion ...

I work with a guy named Bob. Bob has a husband.

I work with a guy name Matt. Matt has a wife.

That's that. Can we go back to work now?
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Old 10-10-17, 02:34 AM   #10
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Re: The General LBGTQ rights (or lack of) thread.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...ning/26925563/

Here you go (re: queer).
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Old 10-10-17, 03:26 AM   #11
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Re: The General LBGTQ rights (or lack of) thread.

http://fingfx.thomsonreuters.com/gfx..._medium=Social

Map shows how few states offer discrimination protection based on sexual orientation or identity. There are some cites in other states that offer protection.

Think about that. That is a lot of areas that people can discriminate (with no legal recourse) just based on who they are. And even in states with protection, that is coming under attack. Our Baker friend is in Colorado which offers protection. Had he been one state over he could discriminate to his hearts content. But now he is challenging even the law there for the right to discriminate. It appears they plan to argue a free speech issue before the court more than a religous freedom issue (tho that is why the baker refused to make the cake). Which is kind of scary and could reopen long "settled" discrimination on race, gender, age, etc.
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Old 10-10-17, 05:59 AM   #12
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Re: The General LBGTQ rights (or lack of) thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sdallnct View Post
http://fingfx.thomsonreuters.com/gfx..._medium=Social

Map shows how few states offer discrimination protection based on sexual orientation or identity. There are some cites in other states that offer protection.

Think about that. That is a lot of areas that people can discriminate (with no legal recourse) just based on who they are. And even in states with protection, that is coming under attack. Our Baker friend is in Colorado which offers protection. Had he been one state over he could discriminate to his hearts content. But now he is challenging even the law there for the right to discriminate. It appears they plan to argue a free speech issue before the court more than a religous freedom issue (tho that is why the baker refused to make the cake). Which is kind of scary and could reopen long "settled" discrimination on race, gender, age, etc.
Except for the fact that the term "who they are" has no meaning any more except to the individual.

When "orientation" is accepted as a biological "fact" despite the lack of evidence...and race and gender are now regarded as individual choices...then we might as well go ahead and allow people to identify themselves as the age they prefer to be.

And who can argue with them? That would be "discriminatory."

People who are "traditionally" under 30 should be lining up for their draw.
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Old 10-10-17, 07:00 AM   #13
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Re: The General LBGTQ rights (or lack of) thread.

Lack of evidence you'll acknowledge, anyway.
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Old 10-10-17, 08:02 AM   #14
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Re: The General LBGTQ rights (or lack of) thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by creekdipper View Post
Except for the fact that the term "who they are" has no meaning any more except to the individual.

When "orientation" is accepted as a biological "fact" despite the lack of evidence...and race and gender are now regarded as individual choices...then we might as well go ahead and allow people to identify themselves as the age they prefer to be.

And who can argue with them? That would be "discriminatory."

People who are "traditionally" under 30 should be lining up for their draw.
Do you support discrimination based on religion?
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Old 10-10-17, 08:02 AM   #15
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Re: The General LBGTQ rights (or lack of) thread.

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Originally Posted by creekdipper View Post
Except for the fact that the term "who they are" has no meaning any more except to the individual.

When "orientation" is accepted as a biological "fact" despite the lack of evidence...and race and gender are now regarded as individual choices...then we might as well go ahead and allow people to identify themselves as the age they prefer to be.

And who can argue with them? That would be "discriminatory."

People who are "traditionally" under 30 should be lining up for their draw.
Ummm no.

There is a lot of evidence. Just none you will accept. But let's adress your specific point. How many "cases" of "age identity" have there been?

And as I've mentioned many times, we in the US have agreed that "born that way" or "evidence" of who you are is not necessarily a requirement in providing protection or even accomodation (let alone the idea of just treating another human being with common respect).

And my evidence for that statement? Religion. No one is born religious. And there is no evidence God is real. In fact, religion by definition is "faith based". Yet we have protection against religous discrimating. We even give religous people accomodation for their religion.

Also your at least suggesting that if people like you had evidence that you believed there would not be discrimination. Which is total and complete BS. History is not on your side. People knew blacks were "born that way". People knew blacks were "real". And yet people including religion discriminated against them and treated them (and still do) as 2nd class citizen. Same with women.

Personally I believe your are born how you are (even the Catholic Church which has a lot of issues, believes a person is born gay so being gay in and of itself is not a sin. There are gay priests). And there is plenty of evidence to support that (and more coming all the time). But IMO the arguement is moot. We have agreed you don't need evidence of something being "real" by the fact we give religion not only protections but accommodations.

So I'd be careful in demanding "evidence" before we agree to provided the most basic of equal rights to a group. If your going to say there must be "evidence of being real" to have any protection, then we will have to start rolling back religous rights and accomodation.

And let's not forget the rights being "asked". The map I posted just noted states that had protection against discrimination in housing, accomodation and employment. That's not exactly Christmas or hitting the lottery. Those are the basics of the basics. It is incredibly sad we need those protections. That there are people out there that choose to discriminate against anothers in these basic areas. These are people who get to take advantage of society as a whole, but then wanted to treat members of that society as second hand citizens.

Last edited by Sdallnct; 10-10-17 at 08:26 AM.
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Old 10-10-17, 08:25 AM   #16
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Re: The General LBGTQ rights (or lack of) thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Draven View Post
Do you support discrimination based on religion?
Discriminating between sin and righteousness?

Since that's required in order to know how to glorify God...which, after all, is the primary purpode of all human existence...that ability to distinguish between the two is pretty much essential, wouldn't you say?

(That wouldn't apply to any religion that doesn't differentiate and considers all actions and attitudes equivalent.)
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Old 10-10-17, 08:28 AM   #17
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Re: The General LBGTQ rights (or lack of) thread.

Glorifying god is only the primary purpose of the human existence of people who believe in a god. This is where you always trip up, creek.
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Old 10-10-17, 08:29 AM   #18
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Re: The General LBGTQ rights (or lack of) thread.

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Originally Posted by creekdipper View Post
Discriminating between sin and righteousness?

Since that's required in order to know how to glorify God...which, after all, is the primary purpode of all human existence...that ability to distinguish between the two is pretty much essential, wouldn't you say?

(That wouldn't apply to any religion that doesn't differentiate and considers all actions and attitudes equivalent.)
You did not answer his question.
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Old 10-10-17, 08:29 AM   #19
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Re: The General LBGTQ rights (or lack of) thread.

Also, since this thread is about LGBTQ issues, not religion, please stay on topic.
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Old 10-10-17, 08:30 AM   #20
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Re: The General LBGTQ rights (or lack of) thread.

So, Sdall, without quoting your entire post, you actively and vocally advocate for equal rights for all consenting adult relationships?
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Old 10-10-17, 08:32 AM   #21
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Re: The General LBGTQ rights (or lack of) thread.

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Originally Posted by Sdallnct View Post
You did not answer his question.
I sure did, and very thoroughly, too.

No wall of text required. Only a small shrubbery.
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Old 10-10-17, 08:33 AM   #22
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Re: The General LBGTQ rights (or lack of) thread.

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Originally Posted by creekdipper View Post
Discriminating between sin and righteousness?

Since that's required in order to know how to glorify God...which, after all, is the primary purpode of all human existence...that ability to distinguish between the two is pretty much essential, wouldn't you say?

(That wouldn't apply to any religion that doesn't differentiate and considers all actions and attitudes equivalent.)
Creek, if that is true, I'm pretty sure you're going to hell. Last I checked, vainglory was one of those important sins and you exhibit it in spades.

Translation of Creek for those keeping up: I deserve things those dirty sinners don't, like being treated with respect.
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Old 10-10-17, 08:45 AM   #23
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Re: The General LBGTQ rights (or lack of) thread.

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Originally Posted by creekdipper View Post
So, Sdall, without quoting your entire post, you actively and vocally advocate for equal rights for all consenting adult relationships?
Hummm...this an LBGTQ thread. And the map I posted that started this conversation was about protection against discrimination based specifically on sexual orientation and in most cases identity. And specifically ONLY in the areas of housing, employment and accomodation.

I don't believe there are in protections for "relationships". Who is asking for that? What is being asked for?

Last edited by Sdallnct; 10-10-17 at 08:56 AM.
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Old 10-10-17, 08:47 AM   #24
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Re: The General LBGTQ rights (or lack of) thread.

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Originally Posted by creekdipper View Post
I sure did, and very thoroughly, too.

No wall of text required. Only a small shrubbery.
Then forgive me for not understanding. Is it not possible to just say your ok or not ok with religous discrimination.
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Old 10-10-17, 09:04 AM   #25
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Re: The General LBGTQ rights (or lack of) thread.

The topic is not religion.
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