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Religion, Politics and World Events They make great dinner conversation, don't you think? plus Political Film

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Old 11-14-17, 07:12 AM   #651
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Re: The General LBGTQ rights (or lack of) thread.

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Originally Posted by Sdallnct View Post

It is also easy to say Jenner would have won but that is speculation.
Really? is common sense allowed to be used? If Lebron played in the WNBA he would dominate, but that's just speculation.
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Old 11-14-17, 07:13 AM   #652
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Re: The General LBGTQ rights (or lack of) thread.

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Originally Posted by Space Ape Mafia View Post
I respect that opinion. But how would that work? What would be the parameters for allowing a male born individual to compete with and against females? If he's just mediocre like a 40 year old Renee Richards is it ok? What would the parameters be based on?
I posted a link above giving examples of how it ia already working.
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Old 11-14-17, 07:14 AM   #653
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Re: The General LBGTQ rights (or lack of) thread.

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Originally Posted by Sdallnct View Post
The question you are asking is irrelevant to the discussion.

But, I had given you an answer. No I don't think men typically have an advantage in sports over women.
Thank you. Not sure why that is irrelevant though. Also, not sure how many would agree with you that men don't typically have an advantage over women in sports.
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Old 11-14-17, 07:15 AM   #654
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Re: The General LBGTQ rights (or lack of) thread.

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Originally Posted by Space Ape Mafia View Post
Really? is common sense allowed to be used? If Lebron played in the WNBA he would dominate, but that's just speculation.
I don't know what the WNBA rules are.

Again, I've posted a link explaining one approach above. Here is from the link,

"In November 2015, less than a year before the Rio Olympics, the IOC changed its requirement in an attempt to make the 2016 Games more inclusive after determining that trans women do not pose an unfair advantage in sports as long as their testosterone levels are consistent with those of athletes who were designated female at birth. The IOC also ruled that sex reassignment surgery was unnecessary, as it made little to no impact on an athlete’s performance.

Under the IOC’s current policy, trans men—women who have transitioned to be men—don’t have to undergo hormone therapy to compete as male athletes; their testosterone levels, which would give them an athletic advantage, are naturally low. For trans women, however, or men who have transitioned to be women, the IOC scaled back on the length of hormone treatments. Trans women must undergo at least one year of testosterone suppression, or hormone deprivation therapy, to enter female divisions. Then, 12 months before even attempting to qualify for an Olympic team, an athlete’s testosterone levels must be below 10 nmol/L."

Again I don't know what the WNBA rules are, but if they were to following this, are you honestly going to say that Lebron James has no more testosterone that than a typical women? Following this rule, if he does he would not be allowed to compete. He would have to under hormone treatment as noted and have the testosterone as noted. Which would....effect his performance.

Now to really muddy the water, what if a born women had unusually high amounts of testosterone? Would she be allowed to compete?

While not perfect I'm sure, this applies what could be a real factor and applying to both men and women (as born).

Last edited by Sdallnct; 11-14-17 at 07:52 AM.
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Old 11-14-17, 07:19 AM   #655
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Re: The General LBGTQ rights (or lack of) thread.

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Originally Posted by Space Ape Mafia View Post
Thank you. Not sure why that is irrelevant though. Also, not sure how many would agree with you that men don't typically have an advantage over women in sports.
I gave that answer in post 627. Not sure why you wouldn't accept then, but do now.

You keep bringing up "men vs women". That's irrelivent because that's not the topic. The topic is transgender women in sports and a transgender women is not a man.

In the Jenner example, when she transitioned she underwent hormone treatments. That would effect her performance, would it not? So to suggest she would preform at the same level or even enough to win in the women's events is pure speculation.

Last edited by Sdallnct; 11-14-17 at 07:40 AM.
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Old 11-14-17, 08:22 AM   #656
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Re: The General LBGTQ rights (or lack of) thread.

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Originally Posted by Dan View Post
This is the kind of thing I'm talking about above. Comparing "male" and "female" differences being "10%" doesn't really mean anything. What are the average numbers for actual transgender women vs. cisgender women. Or what are the numbers for actual transgender men vs cisgender men. How do they, on average, compare?

One or two examples doesn't prove a point, it's purely anecdotal. You have to look at all the historical information to see where the averages truly lie, if any such data even exists. And if it doesn't, then the 10% number isn't enough to prove anything either way, either.

Just because someone "switches" from one to the other, that doesn't mean everything else is equal. What if they're now on estrogen/testosterone pills? What if they're physically transitioning? What if their physique is not the same as the "average" cisgender athlete for a specific sport? There are so many factors... looking at just "the difference between men and women in sports is about 10%" that doesn't tell you anything about transgender athletes.

Again, I'm not saying some advantages or disadvantages aren't there; I'm sure there could be some, in some scenarios. But without real data, you can point to anecdotes all day to make it look like it's a bigger issue than it really is.
Here is the article to which I referred:

https://www.theatlantic.com/technolo...re-not/260927/

My memory was a little off. It's not averages it addressed but the top performances of men and women in many sports.
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Old 11-14-17, 08:25 AM   #657
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Re: The General LBGTQ rights (or lack of) thread.

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Originally Posted by Space Ape Mafia View Post
I'm trying to make the case for equality for girls/women. Allowing male born individuals into their sports is at the expense of their equality.

I have posted peer-reviewed info and studies in other threads and it went as expected. It was dismissed seemingly because people didn't like the results and the "phobe" and "hate" card was played.
No you have not.

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Originally Posted by Space Ape Mafia View Post
I'm not sure if those are different scenarios, but we do have examples of male-born individuals in women's sports. The high school track star dominating the girls ranks, the weightlifter dominating the other women, the MMA fighter, Richards participating in the women's tennis, etc.
Feels before reals, right here. Data please.
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Old 11-14-17, 08:26 AM   #658
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Re: The General LBGTQ rights (or lack of) thread.

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Originally Posted by movielib View Post
Here is the article to which I referred:

https://www.theatlantic.com/technolo...re-not/260927/

My memory was a little off. It's not averages it addressed but the top performances of men and women in many sports.
And like I said, that information isn’t relevant to transgender athletes. Please read my post again.
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Old 11-14-17, 10:16 AM   #659
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Re: The General LBGTQ rights (or lack of) thread.

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Originally Posted by Space Ape Mafia View Post
Really? is common sense allowed to be used? If Lebron played in the WNBA he would dominate, but that's just speculation.
Abob, can you see the intellectual dishonesty in this type of argument? He's skipping right past the core of the discussion (whether, on average, there is data to prove that a transgender athlete truly has an advantage over their cisgender peers) and instead pointing to one of the most well-known highest-rated male athletes of our generation and saying that this MAN competing in a sport with women would be absurd, therefore such is the case with actual transgender athletes.

This type of argument may sound good to the massively ill-informed, but with zero (yes zero) data to prove the case, it's all feels, no reals. This is what SAM's arguments have been like since he started raging in these LGBTQ threads. Surely you can see that this kind of tactic is not conducive to rational and reasonable discussion in any way...

And again, my position isn't specifically whether or not they should be allowed to compete in every sport long-term. My position is that we need the data to prove, one way or another, whether they have an advantage over their cisgender peers, before you can even suggest that they absolutely should not be allowed to compete. If the data simply isn't there, then there's no compelling reason to say NO, it should never happen. In fact, it's more of a reason to say YES, let them, and see how it all plays out, so we then have actual data to show whether the arguments against it have any validity.
And then, maybe, the scientific conclusion becomes, "In certain sports, certain transgender athletes of a certain physique may have advantages over their peers." Then, organizations like the IOC, WNBA, etc. can use THAT information to say, "Okay, in certain sports, we will limit admittance unless certain factors are met by the individual."

But people like SAM can't get past their own limited understanding of biology to even get to this kind of nuanced discussion. Not only that, but they argue that their limited understanding of biology is the one and only factor that matters. It isn't.
But that's why I defer to biologists to tell me about biology, not some internet rando who uses "biology" as a reason for why they don't want transgender people in the "wrong" sports, or in the "wrong" restroom, or whatever, without an actual biological study to explain it.

Abob, if you think I'm being intellectually dishonest, feel free to point out where and explain why. If I'm misrepresenting someone's core argument, it's not intentional. If I had to summarize what SAM is saying, it's that transgender athletes shouldn't be allowed to compete with athletes matching their gender identity because in some cases men have advantages over women and in some other cases women have advantages over men. Do you think this is a fair summary of what SAM is saying? If not, feel free to give your take. If so, then I feel that my arguments opposed to this (see: everything above) address this, but put simply: I'm not convinced that transgender individuals share all of the advantages of their assigned sex at birth since many (but not all) will be in various states of social and physical transition, which can directly impact their performance, and further, I would like to see data that shows exactly how transgender athletes compare to their cisgender peers; not examples. Data that has been reviewed by an expert in the field, who has provided an informed opinion on that data, not just a single data point or a handful of anecdotes.

Is that a fair request?
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Old 11-14-17, 11:22 AM   #660
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Re: The General LBGTQ rights (or lack of) thread.

I think your summary is spot on. He did the same thing in the military ban discussion. Some tran-military members cost tax payers money and some trans-military members might miss being able to be deployed due to their health issues. So ee should ban them all.

Problem is. It is the military. They have already actually studied the issue. No need for made up unicorn theories.

https://forum.dvdtalk.com/13204931-post629.html

My post here included an article on the transgender athlete topic (do they have an advantage). The article includes a link to an actual study ( with with runners).

I agree I think move studies are useful. As the study above noted, this can be difficult. For obvious reasons.

Last edited by Sdallnct; 11-14-17 at 11:41 AM.
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Old 11-14-17, 11:56 AM   #661
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Re: The General LBGTQ rights (or lack of) thread.

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Originally Posted by Space Ape Mafia View Post
I respect that opinion. But how would that work? What would be the parameters for allowing a male born individual to compete with and against females? If he's just mediocre like a 40 year old Renee Richards is it ok? What would the parameters be based on?
Again. Your not reading what anyone is actually posting.
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Old 11-14-17, 12:01 PM   #662
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Re: The General LBGTQ rights (or lack of) thread.

Thanks Sdallnct.
I skimmed through the study that the article links to. Of course, it's inconclusive, but as it says, it's the only study of its kind. Here's the conclusion:

Quote:
Conclusions
Despite the fact that transgender women have been allowed to compete against cisgender ones
since 2004, there has been no study used to justify this decision beyond the original work of
Gooren and Bunck. It bears repeating that this original study was not undertaken on athletes, nor
did it directly measure any aspect of athleticism. In fact, this is the first time a study has been
developed to measure the performance of transgender athletes.
The author overcame two
significant barriers which have prevented any previous study from being performed, i.e. the
difficulty in determining an appropriate metric to measure athletic performance both before and
after testosterone suppression, and the difficulty in finding enough willing study participants in
any given sport.

The author chose to use the standard age-grading methodology which is commonly used in
master’s (over forty) track meets worldwide, to evaluate the performance of eight distance
runners who had undergone gender transition from male to female. As a group, the eight study
participants had remarkably similar age grade scores in both male and female gender, making it
possible to state that transgender women run distance races at approximately the same level, for
their respective gender, both before and after gender transition.


It should be noted that this conclusion only applies to distance running and the author makes
no claims as to the equality of performances, pre and post gender transition, in any other sport.

As such, the study cannot, unequivocally, state that it is fair to allow to transgender women to
compete against 46,XX women in all sports, although the study does make a powerful statement
in favor of such a position.

It should also probably be noted that the publication of this study will likely not appreciably
change the resistance faced by transgender women who compete against cisgender ones. There
will continue to be strong opposition by athletes, parents and fans to the inclusion of transgender
women. It will take many more years before the average sports enthusiast understands that
transgender women who have undergone testosterone suppression will not dominate women’s
sports.
What this means, dumbed down is:
Pre-transition, when identifying as men, they performed at a level approximately in line with other men.
Post-transition, wehn identifying as a woman and using hormones, they performed at a level approximately in line with other women.

Is it conclusive? no. But at least it's coming from someone in an educated position who can give an informed opinion on it, so I take the opinion in the conclusion for what it says. This is more valuable than the insight of someone who thinks dumping Lebron James into a WNBA game is remotely useful in this kind of discussion.
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Old 11-14-17, 12:40 PM   #663
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Re: The General LBGTQ rights (or lack of) thread.

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Originally Posted by Dan View Post
Thanks Sdallnct.
I skimmed through the study that the article links to. Of course, it's inconclusive, but as it says, it's the only study of its kind. Here's the conclusion:



What this means, dumbed down is:
Pre-transition, when identifying as men, they performed at a level approximately in line with other men.
Post-transition, wehn identifying as a woman and using hormones, they performed at a level approximately in line with other women.

Is it conclusive? no. But at least it's coming from someone in an educated position who can give an informed opinion on it, so I take the opinion in the conclusion for what it says. This is more valuable than the insight of someone who thinks dumping Lebron James into a WNBA game is remotely useful in this kind of discussion.
Exactly. It's only 8 people. But it appears rather well done. I agree with you. Is it 100% conclusive? Even for runners? No of course not. But it is evidence.

More importantly, we are seeing a switch in sport regulation. It's more about what is REALLY a factor. The IOC has moved to testosterone measurements. Perfect? No. And some cis-gender women will be caught up in that as there are medical conditions that cause elevated testosterone.

But that goes to what I was saying. Sports as a whole are unfair. Ape keeps saying it's not fair for a trans-women to be able to compete with cis-gender women. The problem is, that predisposes that sports are fair. They are not. That's before we even get to the issue of any advantage a trans-women athlete might have.

Last edited by Sdallnct; 11-14-17 at 12:45 PM.
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Old 11-14-17, 01:24 PM   #664
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Re: The General LBGTQ rights (or lack of) thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan View Post
Thanks Sdallnct.
I skimmed through the study that the article links to. Of course, it's inconclusive, but as it says, it's the only study of its kind. Here's the conclusion:



What this means, dumbed down is:
Pre-transition, when identifying as men, they performed at a level approximately in line with other men.
Post-transition, wehn identifying as a woman and using hormones, they performed at a level approximately in line with other women.

Is it conclusive? no. But at least it's coming from someone in an educated position who can give an informed opinion on it, so I take the opinion in the conclusion for what it says. This is more valuable than the insight of someone who thinks dumping Lebron James into a WNBA game is remotely useful in this kind of discussion.
Interesting study, thanks for posting. It's impossible, for now, to do a definitive study. Trans women make up a tiny % of the sports world, just coming up with a proper sample size would be difficult. And I imagine a factor would be at what age a person started hormone therapy.

I'm guessing (not scientific!) that weightlifting would be a big exception, since the differences are so sizable. Some data:

World records (and percentage increase in male performance):

Snatch:
Men's - 217kg
Women's - 155kg
Increase - 40%

Clean and Jerk:
Men's - 263kg
Women's - 193kg
Increase - 36%

Last edited by Fist of Doom; 11-14-17 at 01:37 PM.
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Old 11-14-17, 01:48 PM   #665
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Re: The General LBGTQ rights (or lack of) thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fist of Doom View Post
Interesting study, thanks for posting. It's impossible, for now, to do a definitive study. Trans women make up a tiny % of the sports world, just coming up with a proper sample size would be difficult. And I imagine a factor would be at what age a person started hormone therapy.
Yeah, I agree. I think letting them partake in the athletics that they choose will help to foster more data anyway.

Quote:
I'm guessing (not scientific!) that weightlifting would be a big exception, since the differences are so sizable. Some data:

World records (and percentage increase in male performance):

Snatch:
Men's - 217kg
Women's - 155kg
Increase - 40%

Clean and Jerk:
Men's - 263kg
Women's - 193kg
Increase - 36%
That's interesting, and honestly expected, but you do have to remember you're looking at world records only, so literally only 4 data points representing up to 4 people (assuming each male record and each female record are held by different people). This isn't really useful data on its own. This is not representative of the average... although my gut tells me the average is still much higher for men than it is for women. Not only that, but also that there are likely many more men in weightlifting than there are women, as well, and that can skew the average numbers in any particular direction, but... probably higher.

Looking at averages based on weight class would be helpful. Or averages based on weight, height, and age, with and without looking at gender. All of these are factors that can affect a weightlifter's own maximum record.

But even still, all of that ignores the difference between a male weightlifter and a transgender female weightlifter who may be on testosterone suppressants. Someone is not getting the world record, then coming out as transgender, then getting the other world record the next day. That's just not happening, so comparing male world records to female world records doesn't get at the core of the issue of whether or not a transgender person specifically has an advantage over their peers.

What you posted is good info, don't get me wrong. But it's so limited in scope as to be irrelevant, on its own, to what is being suggested by those who think transgender women shouldn't be allowed to compete with other women.
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Old 11-14-17, 02:43 PM   #666
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Re: The General LBGTQ rights (or lack of) thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fist of Doom View Post
Interesting study, thanks for posting. It's impossible, for now, to do a definitive study. Trans women make up a tiny % of the sports world, just coming up with a proper sample size would be difficult. And I imagine a factor would be at what age a person started hormone therapy.

I'm guessing (not scientific!) that weightlifting would be a big exception, since the differences are so sizable. Some data:

World records (and percentage increase in male performance):

Snatch:
Men's - 217kg
Women's - 155kg
Increase - 40%

Clean and Jerk:
Men's - 263kg
Women's - 193kg
Increase - 36%
But again, that is cis-gender men vs. cis-gender women.

There are two complete and separate discussions,

1) men v. women in sport
2) transgender people in sports

Those are two disctinct issues.

Let’s for example use what the IOC is doing and measuring testosterone. And let’s say a trans-women (male to female) weight lifter is competing in women’s weight letting. The IOC is saying that trans-women must have testosterone at a level similar to cis-gender women. And been that way for over a year (thanks to hormones).

Now how much (if any) is there an advantage? That is the question.
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Old 11-14-17, 06:09 PM   #667
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Re: The General LBGTQ rights (or lack of) thread.

Go Australia!

Australia's same-sex marriage postal survey: 61.6% yes, 38.4% no
https://www.theguardian.com/australi...y-results-live
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Old 11-14-17, 07:06 PM   #668
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Re: The General LBGTQ rights (or lack of) thread.

Since we are being told that one can assume the gender with which he/she identifies, why the talk about "transitioning" and "effects of hormone treatments" re: athletic performance? What would prevent a person with male biological traits (including greater testosterone levels than most females) from competing in female event categories without making any physical changes?

Surely the IOC is not suggesting that certain physical traits must be present to make a determination of gender?

Last edited by creekdipper; 11-14-17 at 07:17 PM.
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Old 11-14-17, 07:51 PM   #669
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Re: The General LBGTQ rights (or lack of) thread.



A wise anonymous soul once said...
Quote:
It's your duty and your responsibility to actually study something if you are interested in it. If you don't you're injuring yourself and if you wish to parade your consequent ignorance you're demeaning yourself. Know that I loathe this pathetic idea that you are entitled to hold on to nonsense until someone goes out of their way to persuade you otherwise. That it is ok for you to not know what you are talking about until a knight in shining armor arrives to force you out of your self-imposed (and violently clinged onto) ignorance. You should want to bring yourself out of it on your own, and not trying to do so when you can represents your own moral failing.
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Old 11-14-17, 08:06 PM   #670
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Re: The General LBGTQ rights (or lack of) thread.

I kind of really want that wig.
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Old 11-14-17, 08:11 PM   #671
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Re: The General LBGTQ rights (or lack of) thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by creekdipper View Post
Since we are being told that one can assume the gender with which he/she identifies, why the talk about "transitioning" and "effects of hormone treatments" re: athletic performance? What would prevent a person with male biological traits (including greater testosterone levels than most females) from competing in female event categories without making any physical changes?

Surely the IOC is not suggesting that certain physical traits must be present to make a determination of gender?
Your not even trying dude.

The IOC rules have zero to do w/gender. Which is the point.

The IOC made the testosterone levels based on typical born females. That means anyone with to high a level cannot compete in women's events. Unless they first go thru hormone replacement. It's the rules that prevent it.

It's why Ape statement about King James playing in the WNBA is so stupid. First, not one one the planet it suggesting he should. And 2nd, assuming the WNBA follows similar policy to the IOC, he could would not be allowed to participate due to his obviously high testosterone levels.

Now if he "came out" or " transitioned" as a trans-women, per IOC guidelines his testosterone would have to be at the level of a typical women or he could not compete. Unless he too hormones got reduce those levels and he was at those levels for over a year.

Again, I don't know the WNBA policy on the topic. But the IOC rules are one way to handle the situation. Which overall I'm fine with. From what I have read so far.

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Old 11-14-17, 08:35 PM   #672
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Re: The General LBGTQ rights (or lack of) thread.

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Abob, can you see the intellectual dishonesty in this type of argument? He's skipping right past the core of the discussion (whether, on average, there is data to prove that a transgender athlete truly has an advantage over their cisgender peers) and instead pointing to one of the most well-known highest-rated male athletes of our generation and saying that this MAN competing in a sport with women would be absurd, therefore such is the case with actual transgender athletes.
I guess you missed the sarcasm in response to his statement it would have been "speculative" to think Bruce Jenner would have won if he competed against women if he transitioned/identified as a woman back in his day.

Also, that MAN could become a woman like Bruce Jenner did, so it isn't absurd, when any MAN could become a woman and/or identify as a woman.
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Old 11-14-17, 08:53 PM   #673
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Re: The General LBGTQ rights (or lack of) thread.

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Originally Posted by Space Ape Mafia View Post
I guess you missed the sarcasm in response to his statement it would have been "speculative" to think Bruce Jenner would have won if he competed against women if he transitioned/identified as a woman back in his day.

Also, that MAN could become a woman like Bruce Jenner did, so it isn't absurd, when any MAN could become a woman and/or identify as a woman.
Again it is speculative unless you choose to ignore facts.

The question was not if an athlete could transition. But if after transitioning she would “beat all the women” or win even more medals. That is speculation.

I’ve posted where there are policies place that cover that situation. Yet you continue to ignore.

Last edited by Sdallnct; 11-14-17 at 10:14 PM.
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Old 11-15-17, 01:29 AM   #674
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Re: The General LBGTQ rights (or lack of) thread.

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Originally Posted by Sdallnct View Post
The IOC rules have zero to do w/gender. Which is the point.

The IOC made the testosterone levels based on typical born females. That means anyone with to high a level cannot compete in women's events. Unless they first go thru hormone replacement. It's the rules that prevent it.

Now if he "came out" or " transitioned" as a trans-women, per IOC guidelines his testosterone would have to be at the level of a typical women or he could not compete. Unless he too hormones got reduce those levels and he was at those levels for over a year.
No need to rebut this post when the post brilliantly rebuts itself.
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Old 11-15-17, 01:54 AM   #675
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Re: The General LBGTQ rights (or lack of) thread.

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Originally Posted by creekdipper View Post
No need to rebut this post when the post brilliantly rebuts itself.
So we are no longer talking about trans-women playing in women sports?

Please tell me what we are talking about?

Ape is has brought up the “unfairness” of trans-women (male to female) playing women sports. I pointed out an example of how that is handled.

Regardless of cis-gender or transgender women the IOC goes by testosterone levels.

If I misunderstood your question, ask again. I’ll try to be more clear.

I really have no clue what your trying to say. And I’ve read it 3 time. I don’t know “who” told you...

And no one has said there is no differences between those born male or female.

Last edited by Sdallnct; 11-15-17 at 02:03 AM.
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