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Illegal voters may gave handed New Hampshire to Hillary Clinton

Old 09-08-17, 06:04 PM
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Illegal voters may gave handed New Hampshire to Hillary Clinton

In New Hampshire, people with out of state driver's licenses are allowed to vote, but only if they get a New Hampshire driver's license or reegister a vehicle in the state within 60 days.

Fox News is saying that based on these rules, enough people illegally voted to have possibly given the state to Hillary Clinton.

In February, before this new info came out, the Washington Post criticized White House adviser Stephen Miller for saying that Clinton won New Hampshire due to illegal out of state voters. But that criticism from the Washington Post was before this new info came out.

Now that this new info has come out, I hope the Washington Post will investigate it to either confirm it or debunk it.


http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017...a-suggest.html

Out-of-staters may have won New Hampshire for Clinton, data suggest

September 8, 2017

New data suggest that more than 5,000 people who cast ballots in New Hampshire in the 2016 U.S. presidential election might not have been residents of the state.

These voters likely used out-of-state driver’s licenses and have not since obtained an in-state license or registered a vehicle.


New Hampshire House Speaker Shawn Jasper, a Republican, released the data Thursday following his inquiries to the state’s Department of State and the Department of Safety, which supervise elections.

The new figures could potentially call into question the validity of the New Hampshire results for Nov. 8, when Democratic nominee Hillary Clinton outpolled Republican nominee Donald Trump by a mere 2,736 votes.

Conservatives have long criticized certain practices of voter registration, such as same-day registration, claiming lax rules invite fraud and abuse of the electoral system, the Washington Times reported.

In February, White House adviser Stephen Miller came under fire for suggesting that nonresident Democratic Party voters arrived in droves to New Hampshire to vote for Clinton.

Miller told ABC in February: “Having worked before on a campaign in New Hampshire, I can tell you that this issue of busing voters into New Hampshire is widely known by anyone who’s worked in New Hampshire politics. It’s very real. It’s very serious. This morning, on this show, is not the venue for me to lay out all the evidence.”

The Washington Post described Miller’s claim as “the same bogus talking points that have been repeatedly shown to be false.”


The figures obtained by Jasper, however, reveal the potential abuse of the voting procedure. According to the data, 6,540 people registered to vote, and voted in the New Hampshire election, provided just out-of-state license.

Only 15 percent, roughly about 1,014 of the voters, have since obtained the in-state license, while 200 other people had since registered a vehicle in the state.

Despite New Hampshire law mandating that drivers acquire a state driving license within 60 days of becoming a resident in the state, more than 80 percent of people who registered to vote with out-of-state licenses still had not received their in-state license or registered a new vehicle – nearly 10 months after the election.

In addition, 196 people were under investigation for voting in two states.

Recently, three elections in New Hampshire were won by fewer than 5,000 votes, the Concord Patch reported. Clinton won against Trump by 2,736 votes, Democratic Gov. Maggie Hassan beat U.S. Sen. Kelly Ayotte by 1,017 votes and U.S. Rep. Carol Shea-Porter won against incumbent U.S. Rep. Frank Guinta by 4,900 votes.

Democrats have fired back at the new data, calling it an attempt to use “selective data and misinformation” to justify claims made by the White House about the voter fraud.

State Democratic Party Chairman Raymond Buckley claimed Jasper “selectively requested information about voters who registered with out-of-state licenses, an entirely legal and normal practice. They can easily be accounted for by college students and other new Granite Staters who deferred acquiring an in-state license or don't intend to drive in the state,” WMUR9 reported.

State Senate Democratic Leader Jeff Woodburn seconded: “Using cherry-picked data in order to support a false claim is dangerous and irresponsible. Today’s release of information by Speaker Jasper’s office fans the flames of misinformation in order to further suppress our citizens’ right to vote.”

Jasper addressed the criticism that the figures can be accounted with just college students, claiming there were multiple people who “did not comply with the law.”

“College students are eligible to vote if they declare domicile here, but anybody who does that then has to comply with the laws of the state,” he said, according to WMUR9. “If someone is domiciled in New Hampshire (and has a vehicle), then within 60 days, they need to obtain a driver’s license. I think we will find that within that 5,000, there will be many who did not comply with the law.”

The two state agencies that issued the data to Jaspers also released an explanation of why certain people could have voted without having an in-state driving license or have registered the vehicle even 10 months later after the election.

“It is likely that some unknown number of these individuals moved out of New Hampshire, it is possible that a few may have never driven in New Hampshire or have ceased driving, however, it is expected that an unknown number of the remainder continue to live and drive in New Hampshire. If they have established their residence in New Hampshire, they may have failed to obtain a New Hampshire driver’s license,” wrote Safety Commissioner John Barthelmes and Secretary of State Bill Gardner.

The letter does not suggest all people who voted with out-of-state driving licenses voted illegally.
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Old 09-08-17, 06:21 PM
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Re: Illegal voters may gave handed New Hampshire to Hillary Clinton

I've lived in New York for over a decade. That entire time I have kept my California drivers license. I have voted in every election. The data you posted means nothing.
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Old 09-08-17, 06:54 PM
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Re: Illegal voters may gave handed New Hampshire to Hillary Clinton

The law itself is dumb because it's basically an unenforcable "honor system". And we don't know how any of them voted. It's also possible that they narrowed Clinton's lead.
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Old 09-08-17, 07:06 PM
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Re: Illegal voters may gave handed New Hampshire to Hillary Clinton

The Washington Post described Miller’s claim as “the same bogus talking points that have been repeatedly shown to be false.”
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Old 09-08-17, 07:10 PM
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Re: Illegal voters may gave handed New Hampshire to Hillary Clinton

Well, I'm convinced. Let's impeach her!
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Old 09-08-17, 07:24 PM
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Re: Illegal voters may gave handed New Hampshire to Hillary Clinton

When you have a shitty president, the only way to make him look good is by attacking the person who lost the election to him, good job Fox.
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Old 09-08-17, 07:30 PM
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Re: Illegal voters may gave handed New Hampshire to Hillary Clinton

Why are you still "but Hillary"-ing?
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Old 09-08-17, 07:57 PM
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Re: Illegal voters may gave handed New Hampshire to Hillary Clinton

If you don't drive in New Hampshire, you ain't gonna vote in New Hampshire, dammit!

Oh, and those 4 electoral college votes for Hillary were crucial to her win...
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Old 09-08-17, 08:09 PM
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Re: Illegal voters may gave handed New Hampshire to Hillary Clinton

Wait...we can still effect the election???
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Old 09-08-17, 08:18 PM
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Re: Illegal voters may gave handed New Hampshire to Hillary Clinton

Originally Posted by JasonX View Post
I've lived in New York for over a decade. That entire time I have kept my California drivers license. I have voted in every election. The data you posted means nothing.
The popular vote also...means nothing.

But more curiously, you have kept your CA DL for over a decade? Do you even have a NY DL?
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Old 09-08-17, 08:18 PM
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Re: Illegal voters may gave handed New Hampshire to Hillary Clinton

Originally Posted by dex14 View Post
Why are you still "but Hillary"-ing?
Her book is awesome!
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Old 09-08-17, 08:33 PM
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Re: Illegal voters may gave handed New Hampshire to Hillary Clinton

Originally Posted by Dan View Post
Well, I'm convinced. Let's impeach her!
Fuck yeah! She's the worst President ever! Her emails are killing our economy, and enabling North Korea!

Originally Posted by dex14 View Post
Why are you still "but Hillary"-ing?
Wait, what? It was all a dream?
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Old 09-08-17, 08:39 PM
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Re: Illegal voters may gave handed New Hampshire to Hillary Clinton

Originally Posted by Sdallnct View Post
Wait...we can still effect the election???
I demand a do over!
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Old 09-08-17, 09:43 PM
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Re: Illegal voters may gave handed New Hampshire to Hillary Clinton

I see Polizei has returned.

Typical he would make his re-debut in a "But Hillary" thread.
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Old 09-08-17, 10:01 PM
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Re: Illegal voters may gave handed New Hampshire to Hillary Clinton

Get over it - she lost. Why can't Trump supporters deal with it?
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Old 09-08-17, 11:09 PM
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Re: Illegal voters may gave handed New Hampshire to Hillary Clinton

Originally Posted by DVD Polizei View Post
The popular vote also...means nothing.

But more curiously, you have kept your CA DL for over a decade? Do you even have a NY DL?
Yes, I've kept my CA license for over a decade and never obtained a NY license. It helps that I don't own a car, being as I live in NYC, driving at most a few times a year. From my experience, keeping your out of state license rather than obtaining a fresh one from NY seems to be about a 50/50 proposition with people my age (mid-30s) living in NYC. I'm fairly certain that if they required a NY license to vote in NY then there would be close to a million people in NYC alone who are valid residents, that wouldn't be able to vote.
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Old 09-09-17, 01:16 AM
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Re: Illegal voters may gave handed New Hampshire to Hillary Clinton

Wisconsin rules:

https://www.dmv.org/wi-wisconsin/new-to-wisconsin.php

If you have an out-of-state driver's license, you'll need to have it transferred at your local WI DMV office within 60 days of becoming a Wisconsin resident. You'll need to surrender your current driver's license, pass the vision exam, and pay the driver's licensing fee. Visit our Applying for a New License page to check if you need to provide any other documentation.
That's been true from long before we had a voter ID law.

And:

When you move to Wisconsin, you'll need to transfer your out-of-state driver's license, and register your car with the DMV. You'll need to visit your local DMV office in person with various documents and payment for the fees. If you want to vote in WI or become an organ donor, you'll need to register first.
Of course you can register to vote with a nondriver state ID card and you can get it for free if you just say you can't afford it (whether or not it's true).
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Old 09-09-17, 04:42 AM
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Re: Illegal voters may gave handed New Hampshire to Hillary Clinton

Originally Posted by movielib View Post
Wisconsin rules:

https://www.dmv.org/wi-wisconsin/new-to-wisconsin.php



That's been true from long before we had a voter ID law.

And:



Of course you can register to vote with a nondriver state ID card and you can get it for free if you just say you can't afford it (whether or not it's true).
And are the items required to get the state card to prove who you are also free? I mean surely you can't just walk up and say "hi I'm Jone Doe, give me a free voter ID".
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Old 09-09-17, 08:01 AM
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Re: Illegal voters may gave handed New Hampshire to Hillary Clinton

Originally Posted by Sdallnct View Post
And are the items required to get the state card to prove who you are also free? I mean surely you can't just walk up and say "hi I'm Jone Doe, give me a free voter ID".
http://wisconsindot.gov/Pages/dmv/li...n-process.aspx

(See links within this page for further information.)

But sorry, I'm not going to reargue the whole Voter ID thing. Wisconsin does about everything it can to make things as easy and cheap as humanly possible and it has been upheld in the courts.

Last edited by movielib; 09-09-17 at 08:46 AM.
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Old 09-09-17, 09:31 AM
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Re: Illegal voters may gave handed New Hampshire to Hillary Clinton

Originally Posted by movielib View Post
http://wisconsindot.gov/Pages/dmv/li...n-process.aspx

(See links within this page for further information.)

But sorry, I'm not going to reargue the whole Voter ID thing. Wisconsin does about everything it can to make things as easy and cheap as humanly possible and it has been upheld in the courts.
I'm not arguing. I just hate seeing everyone claim "getting a voter ID is free" when that's factually not true since the items needed to get the ID are typically not free.
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Old 09-09-17, 10:06 AM
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Re: Illegal voters may gave handed New Hampshire to Hillary Clinton

Back on topic, it seems the interpretation of the law in the original article may be incorrect:

The state doesn’t necessarily require that someone become an official resident to register to vote. And, in fact, students — who make up majority of these voters with out-of-state IDs — are placed in a different category (“domiciled”) since they don’t plan to stay in the state long-term but do spend most of their time in New Hampshire while they’re in school. This category lets them vote without ever obtaining an in-state ID.
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-polit...r-fraud-kobach
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Old 09-09-17, 10:44 AM
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Re: Illegal voters may gave handed New Hampshire to Hillary Clinton

Originally Posted by grundle View Post
In New Hampshire, people with out of state driver's licenses are allowed to vote, but only if they get a New Hampshire driver's license or reegister a vehicle in the state within 60 days.
Flat out untrue.

http://law.justia.com/cases/new-hamp.../2014-055.html

Supreme Court of New Hampshire

ANNEMARIE GUARE &a v. STATE OF NEW HAMPSHIRE

Argued: April 22, 2015
Opinion Issued: May 15, 2015

No. 2014–558

The State appeals an order of the Superior Court (Tucker, J.) denying the State’s summary judgment motion and granting that of the petitioners, Annemarie E. Guare, Cody Blesedell, Garret Healey, Joan Ashwell, and the League of Women Voters, on their petition for declaratory and injunctive relief. When this case was decided by the trial court, petitioners Guare, Blesedell, and Healey were students enrolled at the University of New Hampshire, and petitioner Ashwell was a volunteer with the New Hampshire League of Women Voters.

The order on appeal made permanent the preliminary injunction issued in 2012 by the Superior Court (Lewis, J.), pursuant to which the State was required to delete from the standard voter registration form the following language: “In declaring New Hampshire as my domicile, I am subject to the laws of the state of New Hampshire which apply to all residents, including laws requiring a driver to register a motor vehicle and apply for a New Hampshire[ ] driver’s license within 60 days of becoming a resident.” Laws 2012, 285:2. The trial court issued the permanent injunction after concluding that the challenged language violated Part I, Article 11 of the New Hampshire Constitution. On appeal, the State does not separately challenge the trial court’s issuance of injunctive relief. Rather, the State confines its appellate arguments to the trial court’s determination that the challenged language violates Part I, Article 11. We affirm.

...

Part I, Article 11 of the New Hampshire Constitution provides, in pertinent part:

All elections are to be free, and every inhabitant of the state of 18 years of age and upwards shall have an equal right to vote in any election. Every person shall be considered an inhabitant for the purposes of voting in the town, ward, or unincorporated place where he has his domicile.
Although the State Constitution does not define “domicile,” the legislature has defined it as “that one place where a person, more than any other place, has established a physical presence and manifests an intent to maintain a single, continuous presence for domestic, social, and civil purposes relevant to participating in democratic self-government.” RSA 654:1, I. Under RSA 654:1, I, a person’s “mere intention to change domicile in the future does not, of itself, terminate an established domicile before the person actually moves.” RSA 654:1, I-a (Supp. 2014) provides that a college student “may lawfully claim domicile for voting purposes in the New Hampshire town or city in which he or she lives while attending [college] . . . if such student’s claim of domicile otherwise meets the requirements of RSA 654:1, I.”

The legislature has defined “residence” differently from “domicile.” “Residence” is “a person’s place of abode or domicile,” and the phrase “place of abode or domicile” is defined as “that [place] designated by a person as his principal place of physical presence for the indefinite future to the exclusion of all others.” RSA 21:6-a. Pursuant to RSA 21:6, a “resident” is “a person who is domiciled or has a place of abode or both in this state . . . , and who has, through all of his actions, demonstrated a current intent to designate that place of abode as his principal place of physical presence for the indefinite future to the exclusion of all others.” Our motor vehicle laws use this definition of “resident.” See RSA 259:88 (2014). Upon becoming a “resident” of New Hampshire, one has 60 days in which to register one’s vehicle here and to obtain a New Hampshire driver’s license. See RSA 261:45 (2014); RSA 263:35 (2014). These requirements do not apply to citizens who are not “residents” of New Hampshire although they have their “domicile” here. The basic difference between a “resident” and a person who merely has a New Hampshire “domicile,” is that a “resident” has manifested an intent to remain in New Hampshire for the indefinite future, while a person who merely has a New Hampshire “domicile” has not manifested that same intent.

For the purposes of this appeal, the State has agreed that the 2012 law that added the challenged language to the voter registration form, Laws 2012, 285:2, does not alter the statutory definitions of “domicile” and “residence.” The State has also acknowledged that the statutory definition of “domicile” and the statutory definition of “residence” differ. Further, the State has agreed that, to vote in New Hampshire, a citizen need only have a New Hampshire “domicile,” and need not be a New Hampshire “resident.”
Emphasis added.

Let me add something.

Grundle, you are not stupid. Perhaps a bit too credulous when it comes to news that tracks with your biases, but not stupid.

This is a 2-year-old case that is directly on point. It says 180 degrees the opposite of what Fox News is saying. Ask yourself why that is. Ask yourself why Kris Kobach, who is leading a so-called "election integrity commission" is blatantly ignoring the pronouncements of New Hampshire's Supreme Court on what the law in New Hampshire is.
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Old 09-09-17, 11:23 AM
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Re: Illegal voters may gave handed New Hampshire to Hillary Clinton

And why is there boldface on any garbage coming out of Stephen Miller's mouth?
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Old 09-09-17, 11:27 AM
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Re: Illegal voters may gave handed New Hampshire to Hillary Clinton

NH seems to be changing their voting laws a little.

http://sos.nh.gov/Elections.aspx

RSA 654:2, I. Temporary Absence or Presence. A domicile for voting purposes…(no changes)…such
domicile is gained. Domicile for purposes of voting is a question of fact and intention coupled with a
verifiable act or acts carrying out that intent. A voter can have only one domicile for voting purposes. No
person shall be deemed…. (no changes)…or private facility.

II.(a) A person present in New Hampshire for temporary purposes shall not gain a domicile for
voting purposes. A person who maintains a voting domicile where he or she came from, to which he or
she intends to return to as his or her voting domicile after a temporary presence in New Hampshire, does
not gain a domicile in New Hampshire regardless of the duration of his or her presence in New
Hampshire.

(b) A person who has been present and residing in one town or ward in New Hampshire for 30 or
fewer days is presumed to be present for temporary purposes unless that person has the intention of
making the place in which the person resides his or her one place, more than any other, from which he or
she engages in the domestic, social, and civil activities of participating in democratic self-government
including voting, and has acted to carry out that intent.

(c) For the purposes of this chapter, temporary purposes shall include, but are not limited to,
being present in New Hampshire for 30 or fewer days for the purposes of tourism, visiting family or
friends, performing short-term work, or volunteering or working to influence voters in an upcoming
election.
http://sos.nh.gov/WorkArea/DownloadA...?id=8589970520

I'm not really sure if the evidence is there or not for demonstrating NH had "illegal" voters for Hillary, because for one, it's Fox News, and most of their commentary is just misleading, like CNN or anyone else.

Grundle, I would recommend watching OAN versus Fox News. They have more in-depth reporting, which is rare, and they allow real conversations with their hosts versus soundbites and video clips that have been recycled for several months.
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Old 09-09-17, 05:22 PM
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Re: Illegal voters may gave handed New Hampshire to Hillary Clinton

Originally Posted by DVD Polizei View Post
I'm not really sure if the evidence is there or not for demonstrating NH had "illegal" voters for Hillary, because for one, it's Fox News, and most of their commentary is just misleading, like CNN or anyone else.

Grundle, I would recommend watching OAN versus Fox News. They have more in-depth reporting, which is rare, and they allow real conversations with their hosts versus soundbites and video clips that have been recycled for several months.
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