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Religion, Politics and World Events They make great dinner conversation, don't you think? plus Political Film

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Old 09-06-17, 11:55 AM   #1
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On white supremacy, minority relations, and how to protest

Given that yesterday's arguments seem to have spilled into every thread here, I thought I would make a new thread that could keep some of it contained.

Yesterday I was accused of making a "blatantly racist" statement. That statement was that the majority population does not get to tell minorities how they can protest. Only two people seemed to feel this was racist at all, let alone blatantly racist, those being creekdipper and mspmms. Their reasoning appears to be that if the law applies equally to all people under the law, then allowing certain groups to break the law because of their ethnicity/race is racism. This is an extremely flawed argument (unsurprisingly), and I believe that it is mainly due to white supremacy.

Now, before I go any further, let me take some time to discuss white supremacy in America. When I use that term, I'm sure most people think of the KKK, Confederate flags, Neo-Nazis, etc. And those are definitely all white supremacist groups. But they are the most extreme versions of white supremacy, not the sole definition of white supremacy.

To use a forum favorite, "dictionary facts", we get the following definition for white supremacy from dictionary.com: "the belief, theory, or doctrine that white people are inherently superior to people from all other racial groups, especially black people, and are therefore rightfully the dominant group in any society."

This definitely applies to white nationalist groups, the KKK, Neo-Nazis, etc. However, this also applies to most of the white population in America throughout its history. Even before the time Europeans colonized the Americas (two whole continents with no indigenous white people named after a European white male), Europeans had an elevated sense of white superiority. This was brought to its natural conclusion during the colonial/imperial eras, where white people spread across the world enslaving people of color, stealing their land and resources, raping them, and committing genocide. The only reason we exist on this continent at all is because white people felt it was their destiny to conquer these "undiscovered" lands, which also meant conquering and annihilating the people who already lived here.

Once established on this stolen continent, white people began importing Africans by the millions, about 12 million slaves were taken from Africa to the New World, of about which 10 million survived the trip. Roughly 300,000 of these went to North America, although of course since children of slaves were also slaves, that number grew steadily.

When this country was founded (via violent protest and revolution), most of the founders were slave owners. Slaves were Constitutionally enshrined as 3/5 of a person for voting purposes, not that a slave was ever allowed to exercise the vote, but rather their white owners would use their numbers to bolster their votes. Women were not allowed to vote. White men who didn't own a certain level of property weren't allowed to vote. This is the legacy on which our country was built.

Since then, while slavery was abolished and both women and minorities were enfranchised, little has really changed in terms of how America treats minorities. Whether it's the Irish, the Chinese, or Latin Americans, every major immigrant group is treated with scorn and suspicion, blamed for all of America's economic troubles despite the fact that our country relies on such immigration to keep our economy afloat.

Blacks and latinos are incarcerated in massive numbers compared to whites, as shown here:



Black people live in fear of being killed by the police, even if they weren't doing anything.

LGBTQ+ live in fear of being beaten or murdered by those who don't accept them. People who are transgender are currently being discriminated against with nonsensical and flagrantly discriminatory bathroom bills.

I can continue with the list of injustices America perpetuates upon its minorities, but my point here is that these injustices are systemic. They are not random, they are not accidents in the aggregate. We live in a hierarchical society with rich white males on top, less affluent whites just below them, and they sit on the backs of everyone else. This is white supremacy. It's not KKK marching in the streets white supremacy, but then it doesn't have to be. Why draw such obvious attention to the systemic inequities of our country when most people never even question them?

When a black man is shot by a policeman during a traffic stop, most assume it's because the black man didn't follow directions. A white nurse is manhandled and arrested by a cop and the same people are outraged! A white man trying to survive a hurricane is shown on TV "finding" food, while a black man is a "looter". These are all subtle forms of white supremacy that reinforce the idea that white people are inherently superior to other races, and thus deserve special consideration.

The GOP mantra of personal responsibility is a great tool for obscuring white supremacy in this country. The personal responsibility mantra that conservatives harp on endlessly about assumes that no group benefits excessively from the structures of society and no group is excessively harmed by the structures of society. So when a white person prospers, it's because of their own hard work without any help from anyone. Please ignore that this white person probably had better access to education, to networking opportunities, to healthcare, to business loans and home loans, experienced less crime, experienced little to no altercations with the cops or justice system. If a minority fails, it's because of their own laziness or ineptitude. Forget that they were born into a socioeconomic bracket that puts them more at risk in a variety of ways, that they face downward pressure from society in general. And the system allows just a few people to move up the ladder so that conservatives can point to them and say that if they can do it, anyone can. But the larger trends show that's not really the truth. It's a lie conservatives tell themselves and the world to justify inhumane treatment of minorities and the lower classes. Appeals to free market economics are another way of obfuscating the issue, as the vast majority of capitalists, the ones who make the rules in a capitalist system because they own the capital, are white men who wish at all costs to maintain the superiority of white men.

So, to get back to my "blatantly racist" comment (that the majority does not get to tell minorities how to protest). The only way one could find this comment "blatantly racist" is if they consider all minorities to be racial minorities (ignoring women, LGBTQ+, religious minorities, etc.) and also if they consider our systems and institutions to be inherently fair to all. In fact, creekdipper's argument is predicated on the idea that all laws should apply equally to all people.

I have to let you in on a little secret creek, our laws have never applied equally to all people. Our laws have been drafted mainly by white men to serve white men, as is our justice system and most of our institutions. The idea of equal liberty and justice for all is a luxury that for the most part only white people get to experience.

This is why I say you do not get to tell minorities how they should protest. You haven't walked a millimeter in their shoes, let alone a mile. You don't understand the arsenal of societal and institutional inequities that minorities face the moment they're born. You don't know what it's like to live in fear for your life, or your liberty, or to be deported at a moment's notice. You don't know what it's like to be part of a group that is picked off for slave labor in prisons where people are tortured, fed rotten food, denied healthcare. Where cops can shoot you just for walking down the wrong street at night and get off with a slap on the wrist. Where men can drug and rape you and get off with probation because the judge doesn't want to ruin their future.

You don't get to tell people that laws that don't protect them, laws that often actively harm them, are the laws they have to obey when they protest. But then, you wield the law as a weapon, and have had no problem suggesting doing away with laws that protect minorities. You use principles of free speech and freedom of religion to preach stripping people of their rights.

Creek, you're a white supremacist. Not in the KKK marching in the street sense, but in the sense that you enjoy the comforts of a system designed to elevate white men above all others, and you seek to expand those systems. Mspmms, you are too. And DVD Polizei and Mabuse. But I'm not saying this to shame you. I'm saying this in the hopes that you'll break out of the paradigm you exist in, and begin to see things from another perspective, a more nuanced perspective, and help to break the cycle of white supremacy that plagues this country.

Side note: I know I put creek on ignore, but as he was making extreme claims about me and misrepresenting my statements, I felt it was necessary to respond. Further, as I mentioned before, this is an attempt to contain the posts that are spilling out across multiple threads right now.
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Old 09-06-17, 11:58 AM   #2
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Re: On white supremacy, minority relations, and how to protest

You are trying to confine me!
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Old 09-06-17, 12:01 PM   #3
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Re: On white supremacy, minority relations, and how to protest





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Old 09-06-17, 12:05 PM   #4
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Re: On white supremacy, minority relations, and how to protest

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I love that bit! So succinct and clear.
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Old 09-06-17, 12:11 PM   #5
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Re: On white supremacy, minority relations, and how to protest

Personally my first thought was the Colin Kaepernick controversy. While it obviously wasn't the case, it could have just as easily been a white player refusing to stand for the anthem for reasons that have nothing to do with race rations (disagreements with US military involvement as just one example). While the numbers of those offended would be probably be far less given the protester wasn't black, I can guarantee you that there would still be many freaking out simply because they view the protest as a slam on their country.

I mention that because it makes it pretty clear, at least to me. You don't get to tell others how to protest.
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Old 09-06-17, 12:24 PM   #6
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Re: On white supremacy, minority relations, and how to protest

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Originally Posted by hdnmickey View Post
Personally my first thought was the Colin Kaepernick controversy. While it obviously wasn't the case, it could have just as easily been a white player refusing to stand for the anthem for reasons that have nothing to do with race rations (disagreements with US military involvement as just one example). While the numbers of those offended would be probably be far less given the protester wasn't black, I can guarantee you that there would still be many freaking out simply because they view the protest as a slam on their country.

I mention that because it makes it pretty clear, at least to me. You don't get to tell others how to protest.
That's part of it too. What prompted my comment about not telling minorities how they can protest was a meme the mspmms posted:

Quote:
Originally Posted by mspmms View Post
The implication here is that there is a right way to protest that the majority will respect and will instigate the change that the protesting group wants.

This is a lie. For one thing, the meme whitewashes the struggles of the Civil Rights movement and makes it seem like MLK was a moderate. That's misrepresentation. For another, any form of protest against the systems that benefit the majority are going to offend the majority. Kaepernick did the least offensive thing anyone could to protest: He silently took a knee during the National Anthem at football games. White America treated him like Satan incarnate for it. Mspmms himself gleefully posted that NFL viewing numbers were down because of Kaepernick's protest. He's now out of a job because of that protest.

The message is clear: Don't protest, stay in your lane, let us continue to exploit you and others like you. This idea of the magical non-violent protest that touches everyone's hearts and minds and changes everything for the better is yet another myth told by the majority to keep minorities from making real change.

Another example is the Women's March. This was the largest combined protest in US history. It was non-violent. Protestors came together in solidarity and generally left the spaces they protested in clean. It was as orderly and peaceful as you could imagine a protest being. The usual suspects here mocked it, mocked the protestors, called it stupid and pointless. This "correct way to protest" thing is just another method of control.
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Old 09-06-17, 12:28 PM   #7
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Re: On white supremacy, minority relations, and how to protest

Mallet, thanks for making this topic.

When a black or Hispanic person is discriminated against, they're usually told they need to pull themselves up the bootstraps; to take personal responsibility of themselves; to stop complaining. I have yet to read a single person in defense of the racial group being discriminated against say, "Man, those people need to stop being assholes!"


I've recommend it before and I'll recommend it again - read "The New Jim Crow."
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Old 09-06-17, 12:34 PM   #8
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Re: On white supremacy, minority relations, and how to protest

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Originally Posted by Supermallet View Post
The implication here is that there is a right way to protest that the majority will respect and will instigate the change that the protesting group wants.

This is a lie. For one thing, the meme whitewashes the struggles of the Civil Rights movement and makes it seem like MLK was a moderate. That's misrepresentation. For another, any form of protest against the systems that benefit the majority are going to offend the majority. Kaepernick did the least offensive thing anyone could to protest: He silently took a knee during the National Anthem at football games. White America treated him like Satan incarnate for it. Mspmms himself gleefully posted that NFL viewing numbers were down because of Kaepernick's protest. He's now out of a job because of that protest.

The message is clear: Don't protest, stay in your lane, let us continue to exploit you and others like you. This idea of the magical non-violent protest that touches everyone's hearts and minds and changes everything for the better is yet another myth told by the majority to keep minorities from making real change.

Another example is the Women's March. This was the largest combined protest in US history. It was non-violent. Protestors came together in solidarity and generally left the spaces they protested in clean. It was as orderly and peaceful as you could imagine a protest being. The usual suspects here mocked it, mocked the protestors, called it stupid and pointless. This "correct way to protest" thing is just another method of control.
You are 100% correct including how the usual suspects have reacted to the topics you posted about above. I'm often flat out disgusted by the posts from a few here. But thankfully it's a just a few and the not majority here by a long shot.

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Old 09-06-17, 12:35 PM   #9
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Re: On white supremacy, minority relations, and how to protest

Well put, Mallet.

I have no answers except to say that racism and fear of the other (which is what it boils down to) won't go away unless the majority of people actively fight it.
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Old 09-06-17, 12:47 PM   #10
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Re: On white supremacy, minority relations, and how to protest

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I have no answers except to say that racism and fear of the other (which is what it boils down to) won't go away unless the majority of people actively fight it.
Same goes for speaking out against some of the posts we see here.
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Old 09-06-17, 12:53 PM   #11
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Re: On white supremacy, minority relations, and how to protest

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Same goes for speaking out against some of the posts we see here.
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Old 09-06-17, 12:56 PM   #12
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Re: On white supremacy, minority relations, and how to protest

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Originally Posted by Supermallet View Post
That's part of it too. What prompted my comment about not telling minorities how they can protest was a meme the mspmms posted:



The implication here is that there is a right way to protest that the majority will respect and will instigate the change that the protesting group wants.

This is a lie. For one thing, the meme whitewashes the struggles of the Civil Rights movement and makes it seem like MLK was a moderate. That's misrepresentation. For another, any form of protest against the systems that benefit the majority are going to offend the majority. Kaepernick did the least offensive thing anyone could to protest: He silently took a knee during the National Anthem at football games. White America treated him like Satan incarnate for it. Mspmms himself gleefully posted that NFL viewing numbers were down because of Kaepernick's protest. He's now out of a job because of that protest.

The message is clear: Don't protest, stay in your lane, let us continue to exploit you and others like you. This idea of the magical non-violent protest that touches everyone's hearts and minds and changes everything for the better is yet another myth told by the majority to keep minorities from making real change.

Another example is the Women's March. This was the largest combined protest in US history. It was non-violent. Protestors came together in solidarity and generally left the spaces they protested in clean. It was as orderly and peaceful as you could imagine a protest being. The usual suspects here mocked it, mocked the protestors, called it stupid and pointless. This "correct way to protest" thing is just another method of control.


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Old 09-06-17, 12:58 PM   #13
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Re: On white supremacy, minority relations, and how to protest

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I had never seen this before. That is damn good.
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Old 09-06-17, 01:27 PM   #14
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Re: On white supremacy, minority relations, and how to protest

Understanding the Antifa
The anti-fascist left stems from a long tradition of violence and protest in America.

https://www.usnews.com/opinion/thoma...olent-protests

Quote:
...what most commentary fails to note is that a belief in nonviolence as effective and laudable is of fairly recent vintage, and was only adopted when white Americans found it convenient.
The history of American political activism is a history of violence, from tax revolts in which collectors were tarred and feathered to John Brown's deadly raid on the eve of the Civil War to labor revolts at the turn of the century to the Black Panthers' armed self-defense creed in the 1960s.
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Old 09-06-17, 01:34 PM   #15
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Re: On white supremacy, minority relations, and how to protest

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/01/o...smtyp=cur&_r=0

Waiting for a perfect protest

Quote:
- Intentionally or not, they [the media] have often promoted a false equivalency between groups that advocate white supremacy and those that seek to eliminate it.

- Even mainstream media outlets that typically fact-check the president seem to have subtly bought into Mr. Trump’s “both sides” narrative regarding right- and left-wing extremism.

- our concern at this moment is with our moderate brothers and sisters who voice support for the cause of racial justice but simultaneously cling to paralyzingly unrealistic standards when it comes to what protest should look like.

- we know there has never been a time in American history in which movements for justice have been devoid of violent outbreaks.

- Thanks to the sanitized images of the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. and the civil rights movement that dominate our nation’s classrooms and our national discourse, many Americans imagine that protests organized by the Southern Christian Leadership Conference, the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee and countless local organizations fighting for justice did not fall victim to violent outbreaks. That’s a myth.

- The reality — which is under discussed but essential to an understanding of our current situation — is that the civil rights work of Dr. King and other leaders was loudly opposed by overt racists and quietly sabotaged by cautious moderates. We believe that current moderates sincerely want to condemn racism and to see an end to its effects. The problem is that this desire is outweighed by the comfort of their current circumstances and a perception of themselves as above some of the messy implications of fighting for liberation.

- I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro’s great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizens Councilor or the Ku Klux Klanner but the white moderate who is more devoted to order than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says, “I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can’t agree with your methods of direct action.”

- The civil rights movement was messy, disorderly, confrontational and yes, sometimes violent. Those standing on the sidelines of the current racial-justice movement, waiting for a pristine or flawless exercise of righteous protest, will have a long wait.

- Rather than critique from afar, come out of your homes, follow those who are closest to the pain, and help us to redeem this country, and yourselves, in the process.
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Old 09-06-17, 01:34 PM   #16
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Re: On white supremacy, minority relations, and how to protest

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Originally Posted by inri222 View Post
Understanding the Antifa
The anti-fascist left stems from a long tradition of violence and protest in America.

https://www.usnews.com/opinion/thoma...olent-protests
This is a good repost. The fact is most people in America have no issue with violence, when it's directed against the other. Cop kills a minority? They were probably asking for it in some way. We bomb a country? Well they were a threat to uh something maybe us? Not us but someone somewhere!

Look at the people calling for us to preemptively attack North Korea.

Most people have no problem with state violence against oppressed portions of our populace, because that violence doesn't threaten the status quo. Violence by oppressed groups against the state, or against the status quo, really freaks people out--specifically the people who benefit from other groups being oppressed and therefore want to maintain the status quo.
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Old 09-06-17, 01:37 PM   #17
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Re: On white supremacy, minority relations, and how to protest

And one more repost that belongs here....





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Old 09-06-17, 01:42 PM   #18
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Re: On white supremacy, minority relations, and how to protest

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Look at the people calling for us to preemptively attack North Korea.

.
My favorite are the people asking for North Korea to bomb California. Such good Americans.
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Old 09-06-17, 01:45 PM   #19
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Re: On white supremacy, minority relations, and how to protest

Nothing like a good old fashioned protest.
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Old 09-06-17, 02:08 PM   #20
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Re: On white supremacy, minority relations, and how to protest

What strikes me as funny is that the people who highlight MLK's push for civil disobedience as the only correct way to protest somehow conveniently only stress the "civil" part and casually forget the "disobedience" part. They were disobeying the laws that they deemed were unfairly targeted against them, and many of them were beaten, jailed, etc for their "civil" actions.

Sadly, I think too many people today view civil disobedience as if it was equivalent to throwing a plastic bottle into the regular trash to piss off an environmentalist.
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Old 09-06-17, 02:10 PM   #21
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Re: On white supremacy, minority relations, and how to protest

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What strikes me as funny is that the people who highlight MLK's push for civil disobedience as the only correct way to protest somehow conveniently only stress the "civil" part and casually forget the "disobedience" part. They were disobeying the laws that they deemed were unfairly targeted against them, and many of them were beaten, jailed, etc for their "civil" actions.

Sadly, I think too many people today view civil disobedience as if it was equivalent to throwing a plastic bottle into the regular trash to piss off an environmentalist.
Yep. Hell, they blocked roadways. That's permission to run them down in some circles. It's said by plenty of my fellow residents any time a protest blocks a street in the Twin Cities.
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Old 09-06-17, 02:35 PM   #22
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Re: On white supremacy, minority relations, and how to protest

I think the story of Emma Tenayuca and the Pecan Workers Strike is really apt here. For those that don't know the story, here is a rundown. They were striking against a lowering of their wages and were villainized. Demonstrators of any sort are almost always viewed negatively at the time of the protests. In this case, it lead to the passage of the Fair Labor Standards Act. For those that claim protests don't bring about political change, here is a prime example of that happening.
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Old 09-06-17, 03:04 PM   #23
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Re: On white supremacy, minority relations, and how to protest

To be clear, I'm not saying protests don't bring about change. I'm saying that there is no magical protest that everyone agrees upon as acceptable and inoffensive that also brings about change. If what you're doing is both acceptable and inoffensive to everyone, you're probably not protesting anything of importance or you're not protesting effectively.
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Old 09-06-17, 03:29 PM   #24
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Re: On white supremacy, minority relations, and how to protest


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Old 09-06-17, 03:34 PM   #25
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Re: On white supremacy, minority relations, and how to protest

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To be clear, I'm not saying protests don't bring about change. I'm saying that there is no magical protest that everyone agrees upon as acceptable and inoffensive that also brings about change. If what you're doing is both acceptable and inoffensive to everyone, you're probably not protesting anything of importance or you're not protesting effectively.
Oh, I understand and agree completely. My point was mostly addressed to another member who had made that assertion in a different thread.
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