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Religion, Politics and World Events They make great dinner conversation, don't you think? plus Political Film

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Old 08-10-17, 01:58 PM   #76
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Re: Google diversity memo

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Originally Posted by milo bloom View Post
There are ways to fix the "old white guy club" problem, but putting women in positions they don't really want isn't it.
Especially not old, white women.
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Old 08-10-17, 02:48 PM   #77
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Re: Google diversity memo

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Originally Posted by creekdipper View Post
Especially not old, white women.
Yeah, this may come off bad, but it has to be said: there are a lot of old, white women that are just as much a part of the problem as the men.

The change needs to start sooner, with the young people.
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Old 08-10-17, 02:48 PM   #78
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Re: Google diversity memo

This is kinda the gist of what this guy did

Quote:
Pichai wrote to employees on Monday and said as much, but much more politely: “To suggest a group of our colleagues have traits that make them less biologically suited to that work is offensive and not OK.”
https://www.recode.net/2017/8/10/161...diversity-memo
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Old 08-10-17, 02:50 PM   #79
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Re: Google diversity memo

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Originally Posted by milo bloom View Post
I want to make clear my position as pretty far to the left, but I still take issue with how diversity is being handled. There are ways to fix the "old white guy club" problem, but putting women in positions they don't really want isn't it.

As others have said, it's got to start younger. If a girl shows interest in science and math, we need to make sure the teachers and male students aren't making it difficult for her to even get started. This will also help when those boys grow up and join the workforce - they'll be used to working with females.
If the women didn't want the position why would the go to college for multiple years studying for hundreds of hours for said position? If they didn't want the position why would they apply for the job? What women has ever said they were forced to take a coding job against their will?

Most women leaving tech jobs is because of harassment, gender bias, and not being paid equal to men doing the same work.
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Old 08-10-17, 03:09 PM   #80
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Re: Google diversity memo

I personally know probably a hundred plus women that have tech jobs and not one of them are in a position they don't want. And wanting things to be different (more equality with the men in the same position, especially at the same company) is not the same as not wanting to be in that position.

Last edited by hdnmickey; 08-10-17 at 03:19 PM.
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Old 08-10-17, 03:09 PM   #81
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Re: Google diversity memo

Yeah this idea that gender inclusion means gathering random women and put them to do jobs they aren't qualified for is as demented as the writer of the memo.
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Old 08-10-17, 03:48 PM   #82
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Re: Google diversity memo

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Okay, I took that they were college professors to mean they had PhDs, but I guess that's not always true. But a quick google search (which you didn't have time to do) shows they all have PhDs.

And it's okay to be skeptical of anything you read on the internet and especially this forum.
I appreciate the effort, sincerely.


Regarding folks with PhD's, here's another one.

A pretty good rebuttal of most of the infamous memo.
It's pretty long, with lots of links to references and such, but here's the tl;dr:
Quote:
TL;DR: Yes, men and women are biologically different — which doesn’t mean what the author thinks it does. The article perniciously misrepresents the nature and significance of known sex differences to advance what appears to be a covert alt-right agenda. More specifically, it:

- argues for biologically determined sex differences in personality based on extremely weak evidence
- completely fails to understand the current state of research on sex differences, which is based in neuroscience, epigenetics and developmental biology
- argues that cognitive sex differences influence performance in software engineering, but presents no supporting evidence. Available evidence does not support the claim.
- fails to acknowledge ways in which sex differences violate the narrative of female inferiority; this shows intellectual dishonesty
- assumes effective meritocracy in its argument, ignoring both a mountain of conflicting scientific literature and its own caveats (which I can only assume were introduced to placate readers, since their incompatibility with the core thesis is never resolved)
- makes repugnant attacks on compassion and empathy
- distorts and misuses moral foundations theory for rhetorical purposes
- contains hints of racism
- paradoxically insists that authoritarianism be treated as a valid moral dimension, whilst firmly rejecting any diversity-motivated strategy that might remotely approach it.
- ultimately advocates rejecting all morality insofar as it might compromise the interests of a group.
and two key parts:
Quote:
Do sex differences make women less suited to be software engineers?
Quote:
I’m simply stating that the distribution of preferences and abilities of men and women differ in part due to biological causes and that these differences may explain why we don’t see equal representation of women in tech and leadership. Many of these differences are small and there’s significant overlap between men and women, so you can’t say anything about an individual given these population level distributions.
At what point did we jump from talking about personalities to abilities? It’s a massive leap to conclude that a slight difference in average personality must undermine women’s professional abilities in software engineering.

Sex differences in cognitive abilities have been well-studied, so it’s intriguing that Damore chooses to ignore this vast literature to focus on personality. The reason, however, quickly becomes clear when we look at the evidence: namely, there’s zero evidence that suggests women should make worse programmers. On average, women score slightly worse on certain spatial reasoning problems and better on verbal tests. Their overall problem-solving abilities are equal. Women used to score worse on math, but inclusive environments negate that difference. Even the (relatively robust) difference in spatial reasoning can vanish when women are asked to picture themselves as male. The only published study of coding competency by sex found that women were more likely than men to have their GitHub contributions accepted — but if they were project outsiders, this was true only if their gender was hidden.
and
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Hinting at racism?
Quote:
the Left tends to deny science concerning biological differences between people (e.g., IQ[8] and sex differences).
The passing mention of IQ is interesting, since it has nothing to do with gender, which is the focus everywhere else. He’s presumably talking about race, but he doesn’t want to be branded a racist, so he keeps the reference subtle. So why risk doing it at all? It’s a dog-whistle to the alt-right.

While we’re here, let’s set the record straight. Racial differences in average IQ have been very widely discussed. Most researchers have concluded that these differences aren’t much attributable to any intrinsic characteristic of race, but are strongly related to differences in pre- and post- natal environment and nutrition. And we can alter racial differences in performance by manipulating the salience of stereotypes. So no, we don’t deny racial differences in IQ, we explain them in ways that upset racists because they want to believe there’s some sort of global conspiracy to hide their innate superiority. Nobody who isn’t racist has any reason to get huffy about this.
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Old 08-10-17, 03:55 PM   #83
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Re: Google diversity memo

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Originally Posted by Dan View Post
I appreciate the effort, sincerely.


Regarding folks with PhD's, here's another one.

A pretty good rebuttal of most of the infamous memo.
It's pretty long, with lots of links to references and such, but here's the tl;dr:


and two key parts:

and
Yes, thank you for posting this. I find this to be far more well thought out than the brief comments in the four professors article.
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Old 08-11-17, 11:20 AM   #84
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Re: Google diversity memo

We’ve studied gender and STEM for 25 years. The science doesn’t support the Google memo.
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Old 08-11-17, 05:30 PM   #85
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Re: Google diversity memo

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Old 08-11-17, 06:32 PM   #86
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Re: Google diversity memo

I believe that a woman should be allowed to major in whatever subject she wants.

To those who claim that more women should major in computer science, I have a question: which majors should there be fewer women in? Medicine? Law? Biology? Accounting? Psychology? Art history? Human resources? Black studies? Women's studies?
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Old 08-11-17, 06:35 PM   #87
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Re: Google diversity memo

Grundle, instead of JAQing off, is there a point you're trying to make?
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Old 08-11-17, 09:13 PM   #88
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Re: Google diversity memo

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Originally Posted by grundle View Post
I believe that a woman should be allowed to major in whatever subject she wants.

To those who claim that more women should major in computer science, I have a question: which majors should there be fewer women in? Medicine? Law? Biology? Accounting? Psychology? Art history? Human resources? Black studies? Women's studies?
Communication disorders. My graduate class had one man in it, and he was the one who washed out. Very few male speech language pathologists, and they tend to gravitate towards medical work and higher ed (as opposed to schools or early intervention). I remember going into a voice class, and the teacher from the previous class was packing up. He looked at the makeup of our class and angrily asked what class this was and why there were no men in it. Pretty sure he thought it was women's studies. It was bizarre.
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Old 08-12-17, 07:09 AM   #89
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Re: Google diversity memo

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Originally Posted by Dan View Post
Grundle, instead of JAQing off, is there a point you're trying to make?
I don't know how to say it any more clearly than the way I said it.
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Old 08-12-17, 07:16 AM   #90
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Re: Google diversity memo

The writer says google's CEO is unfit to be in a leadership position. I agree.


https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/11/o...diversity.html

Sundar Pichai Should Resign as Google’s C.E.O.

By David Brooks

August 11, 2017

There are many actors in the whole Google/diversity drama, but I’d say the one who’s behaved the worst is the C.E.O., Sundar Pichai.

The first actor is James Damore, who wrote the memo. In it, he was trying to explain why 80 percent of Google’s tech employees are male. He agreed that there are large cultural biases but also pointed to a genetic component. Then he described some of the ways the distribution of qualities differs across male and female populations.

Damore was tapping into the long and contentious debate about genes and behavior. On one side are those who believe that humans come out as blank slates and are formed by social structures. On the other are the evolutionary psychologists who argue that genes interact with environment and play a large role in shaping who we are. In general the evolutionary psychologists have been winning this debate.

When it comes to the genetic differences between male and female brains, I’d say the mainstream view is that male and female abilities are the same across the vast majority of domains — I.Q., the ability to do math, etc. But there are some ways that male and female brains are, on average, different. There seems to be more connectivity between the hemispheres, on average, in female brains. Prenatal exposure to different levels of androgen does seem to produce different effects throughout the life span.

In his memo, Damore cites a series of studies, making the case, for example, that men tend to be more interested in things and women more interested in people. (Interest is not the same as ability.) Several scientists in the field have backed up his summary of the data. “Despite how it’s been portrayed, the memo was fair and factually accurate,” Debra Soh wrote in The Globe and Mail in Toronto.

Geoffrey Miller, a prominent evolutionary psychologist, wrote in Quillette, “For what it’s worth, I think that almost all of the Google memo’s empirical claims are scientifically accurate.”

Damore was especially careful to say this research applies only to populations, not individuals: “Many of these differences are small and there’s significant overlap between men and women, so you can’t say anything about an individual given these population-level distributions.”

That’s the crucial point. But of course we don’t live as populations; we live our individual lives.

We should all have a lot of sympathy for the second group of actors in this drama, the women in tech who felt the memo made their lives harder. Picture yourself in a hostile male-dominated environment, getting interrupted at meetings, being ignored, having your abilities doubted, and along comes some guy arguing that women are on average less status hungry and more vulnerable to stress. Of course you’d object.

What we have is a legitimate tension. Damore is describing a truth on one level; his sensible critics are describing a different truth, one that exists on another level. He is championing scientific research; they are championing gender equality. It takes a little subtlety to harmonize these strands, but it’s doable.

Of course subtlety is in hibernation in modern America. The third player in the drama is Google’s diversity officer, Danielle Brown. She didn’t wrestle with any of the evidence behind Damore’s memo. She just wrote his views “advanced incorrect assumptions about gender.” This is ideology obliterating reason.

The fourth actor is the media. The coverage of the memo has been atrocious.

As Conor Friedersdorf wrote in The Atlantic, “I cannot remember the last time so many outlets and observers mischaracterized so many aspects of a text everyone possessed.” Various reporters and critics apparently decided that Damore opposes all things Enlightened People believe and therefore they don’t have to afford him the basic standards of intellectual fairness.


The mob that hounded Damore was like the mobs we’ve seen on a lot of college campuses. We all have our theories about why these moral crazes are suddenly so common. I’d say that radical uncertainty about morality, meaning and life in general is producing intense anxiety. Some people embrace moral absolutism in a desperate effort to find solid ground. They feel a rare and comforting sense of moral certainty when they are purging an evil person who has violated one of their sacred taboos.

Which brings us to Pichai, the supposed grown-up in the room. He could have wrestled with the tension between population-level research and individual experience. He could have stood up for the free flow of information. Instead he joined the mob. He fired Damore and wrote, “To suggest a group of our colleagues have traits that make them less biologically suited to that work is offensive and not O.K.”

That is a blatantly dishonest characterization of the memo. Damore wrote nothing like that about his Google colleagues. Either Pichai is unprepared to understand the research (unlikely), is not capable of handling complex data flows (a bad trait in a C.E.O.) or was simply too afraid to stand up to a mob.

Regardless which weakness applies, this episode suggests he should seek a nonleadership position. We are at a moment when mobs on the left and the right ignore evidence and destroy scapegoats. That’s when we need good leaders most.
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Old 08-12-17, 08:42 AM   #91
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Re: Google diversity memo

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Old 08-12-17, 09:33 AM   #92
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Re: Google diversity memo

Anyone that knows anything about Apple knows how stupid those Apple / Google signs really are.
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Old 08-12-17, 10:15 AM   #93
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Re: Google diversity memo

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Originally Posted by grundle View Post
I don't know how to say it any more clearly than the way I said it.
It was in regard to your follow-up questions, not your first sentence.
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Old 08-12-17, 03:49 PM   #94
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Re: Google diversity memo

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Originally Posted by Dan View Post
It was in regard to your follow-up questions, not your first sentence.
Here's what I said:


Quote:
Originally Posted by grundle View Post
I believe that a woman should be allowed to major in whatever subject she wants.

To those who claim that more women should major in computer science, I have a question: which majors should there be fewer women in? Medicine? Law? Biology? Accounting? Psychology? Art history? Human resources? Black studies? Women's studies?


If the people who tell other people what to major in want more women to major in computer science, then do they want fewer women to become doctors? Or do they want fewer women to major in human resources? From what majors do they want these computer science majors to switch out of?
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Old 08-12-17, 04:31 PM   #95
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Re: Google diversity memo

That's not how it works. No one is telling anyone to drop their current major so they can be forced into computer science.
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Old 08-12-17, 06:07 PM   #96
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Re: Google diversity memo

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That's not how it works. No one is telling anyone to drop their current major so they can be forced into computer science.
But I worry that's what could be happening. My wife (again, an IT person) was initially pushed into IT but went with something else before eventually coming back around to IT. She had to make the decision herself and I worry about young girls being pushed into it that really don't want it and aren't going to be prepared to fight through the crap they're going to face.

My belief, as always, is that the existing system needs to be fixed for the ones that are truly wanting it.
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Old 08-12-17, 06:15 PM   #97
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Re: Google diversity memo

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That's not how it works. No one is telling anyone to drop their current major so they can be forced into computer science.
Of course no one is forcing anyone to do it.

But they are telling them to do it.
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Old 08-12-17, 06:20 PM   #98
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Re: Google diversity memo

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Originally Posted by grundle View Post
Of course no one is forcing anyone to do it.

But they are telling them to do it.
They are telling them they CAN do it.

Jesus Christ. If you ever need the "con" side of women in STEM subjects, just come to DVD Talk.
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Old 08-12-17, 06:23 PM   #99
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Re: Google diversity memo

Right now, student debt does not get erased when a person declares bankruptcy. We need to change this, so the debt can be erased during bankruptcy. And we need to stop government backing and guarantees of college loans.

That way, banks will be more careful about which students they lend money to. Students with the better majors have better employment rates and higher salaries, so banks would be more likely to lend them money. Meanwhile, banks would become reluctant to lend money to students whose majors left them working at Starbucks. This would give students more incentive to select majors that are actually useful, and to avoid the worthless majors. And this would encourage more women to major in STEM subjects.
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Old 08-12-17, 06:56 PM   #100
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Re: Google diversity memo

Nope, we need socialized colleges so that students don't have to take loans to get into college in the first place. Christ, the last thing we need is banks deciding which majors are worth going to college for.
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