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Old 08-02-17, 07:08 PM   #1
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Would You Consider This RAPE?

Lately in the news thee have been stories about Men killing Transwomen after finding out that they were in fact born Male. Some had had sex with them and killed them after the fact. I guess this type of story is where I'm focused.

In the comments for these stories I've been seeing more and more Men say that in a situation where a Transperson tells them AFTER they have sex that they are Trans, it should be considered rape.

What do you think? I'm struggling with the issue be because while I get what they are saying, I'm not sure how its any different from any other lie a person tells to get sex. "I have a big dick", I'm a "size 4", "I'm good at blowjobs", "I'm not married", "I don't have a boyfriend/girlfriend", "ill call you again..", etc. I also personally believe some of these killers in fact KNEW they were having sex with TS's and the killing came after the "guilt" of enjoying someone who used to be a man or I think in one case...the man killed because his buddies found out.

I maintain that if people actually TOOK THE TIME TO GET TO KNOW a person BEFORE they fuck them, then this situation, no matter how female the Transperson looks, will never happen. I mean of the Trans people I have known, I figured it out within 10 minutes of meeting them. And I'm talking VERY STEALTH TS's.
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Old 08-02-17, 07:13 PM   #2
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Re: Would You Consider This RAPE?

Hmm, that's a tough one. My gut reaction is NO, but I seem to remember reading something a while back that said something along the lines of, "technically if you convince someone to have sex with you under false pretenses, then a rape case could possibly be made".

But I dunno. Are these guys so dumb they can't tell if they are sticking their weenie into the pink or the stink? I would think that if a girl wanted you to have sex, but ONLY anal sex, and won't show you their cootch at all, that would throw up red flags.
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Old 08-02-17, 07:17 PM   #3
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Re: Would You Consider This RAPE?

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Originally Posted by joeblow69 View Post
Hmm, that's a tough one. My gut reaction is NO, but I seem to remember reading something a while back that said something along the lines of, "technically if you convince someone to have sex with you under false pretenses, then a rape case could possibly be made".

But I dunno. Are these guys so dumb they can't tell if they are sticking their weenie into the pink or the stink? I would think that if a girl wanted you to have sex, but ONLY anal sex, and won't show you their cootch at all, that would throw up red flags.
But what about Post-op Trans? No penis and a nicely done "Neo-Vagina"....or, very good Oral Skills(thing never made it below the belt)... I'm guessing a Thirsty Ass Dude could be fooled?

I also agree you don't even have to get that far to figure most out.
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Old 08-02-17, 07:21 PM   #4
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Re: Would You Consider This RAPE?

I'd consider it rape - doesn't matter if it's pre-op or post-op... or how convincing the person looks... it's still rape.
I think it's similar to a situation where someone disguises themselves as someone else and fools the person into having sex (ie. Revenge of the Nerds).
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Old 08-02-17, 07:28 PM   #5
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Re: Would You Consider This RAPE?

I don't see how it's rape. They aren't disguising themselves as somebody else, they are presenting themselves as they are. The fact that they used to be a different gender doesn't make who they are now a lie.
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Old 08-02-17, 07:34 PM   #6
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Re: Would You Consider This RAPE?

Hummm...

I don't see how it is rape either. Maybe based on technical laws in particular states? If all parties are in agreement of having sex, I don't see how it could be rape.
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Old 08-02-17, 07:39 PM   #7
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Re: Would You Consider This RAPE?

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I don't see how it's rape. They aren't disguising themselves as somebody else, they are presenting themselves as they are. The fact that they used to be a different gender doesn't make who they are now a lie.
Yeah, this is where I'm at with this as well. One of the big reasons (and there are many reasons) transfolk don't offer this information up is precisely because they fear that some transphobic tough guy bro will murder them.
And I'm not convinced that the "false pretenses" argument holds any weight. A transwoman is a woman and a transman is a man, regardless of their state of physical transition. (IF they transition... that's expensive, and not all transfolk are multimillionaire film directors or lawyers.)

More than anything, the whole thing is super complex, but... I'm firmly not on board with suggesting that transpeople are rapists because they're not 100% up-front about their medical history prior to any and all sexual interaction. That's a slippery slope...

And to be fair... If you asked me this question 5 or 10 years ago... Guaranteed I'd have a completely different answer. I guess I just see things differently these days.
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Old 08-02-17, 07:46 PM   #8
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Re: Would You Consider This RAPE?

I remember this story from a while back:

http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/uk-w...n-sex-13258573

^ This was in the UK but it was considered sexual assault. But there was a lot more to it, because the person was pretending to be two different people.

Here's the wiki on it:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_by_deception

As far as the US goes nothing like what Giantrobo describes seems to fit the bill.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Giantrobo View Post
I also personally believe some of these killers in fact KNEW they were having sex with TS's and the killing came after the "guilt" of enjoying someone who used to be a man or I think in one case...the man killed because his buddies found out.
That's like this story. It sounds like the guy knew she was trans but later got pissed at her for some reason, killed her, and then just claimed she deceived him as some sort of a defense.

Last edited by brayzie; 08-02-17 at 07:58 PM.
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Old 08-02-17, 07:47 PM   #9
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Re: Would You Consider This RAPE?

This kind of reminds me of HIV ... in that, if you are HIV+ and tell someone that you are negative so they will have sex with you, you don't get charged with RAPE, you get charged with a very specific crime regarding HIV transmission.

Similarly, if someone wanted it to be illegal to have sex with someone without revealing your original gender, then I think you need to pass a law for that.
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Old 08-02-17, 07:53 PM   #10
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Re: Would You Consider This RAPE?

Not rape.

False pretenses is when a guy enters a dark bedroom pretending to be the husband. These were people offering sex with a stranger. If you're so terrified by getting a bj from a transsexual that murder seems an appropriate response, do a Crocodile Dundee check before you unbuckle your belt.
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Old 08-02-17, 08:41 PM   #11
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Re: Would You Consider This RAPE?

Of course it's not rape. Silliness.
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Old 08-02-17, 09:28 PM   #12
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Re: Would You Consider This RAPE?

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Originally Posted by joeblow69 View Post
This kind of reminds me of HIV ... in that, if you are HIV+ and tell someone that you are negative so they will have sex with you, you don't get charged with RAPE, you get charged with a very specific crime regarding HIV transmission.

Similarly, if someone wanted it to be illegal to have sex with someone without revealing your original gender, then I think you need to pass a law for that.
This makes the most sense to me. I think it's a kind of shitty thing to do, to omit some very serious details, but it's not rape.
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Old 08-02-17, 09:32 PM   #13
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Re: Would You Consider This RAPE?

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Originally Posted by Fist of Doom View Post
Of course it's not rape. Silliness.
Of course
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Old 08-02-17, 10:02 PM   #14
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Re: Would You Consider This RAPE?

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This kind of reminds me of HIV ... in that, if you are HIV+ and tell someone that you are negative so they will have sex with you, you don't get charged with RAPE, you get charged with a very specific crime regarding HIV transmission.

Similarly, if someone wanted it to be illegal to have sex with someone without revealing your original gender, then I think you need to pass a law for that.
The first comparable thing I was thinking of to this was also someone being HIV positive or having full blown AIDS. If they dont disclose this prior to having sex with a partner with the intent of transferring the disease to the the other person, I would consider this assault or attempted murder.

Not disclosing that you are transgender is much different than lying about your penis size or how much money you make to get the other partner in bed, I don't know if I would use the term rape, but I would say thre should be some kind of legal ramification for not disclosing this just like there is for having a sexually transmitted disease.
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Old 08-02-17, 10:09 PM   #15
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Re: Would You Consider This RAPE?

There's nothing dangerous about having sex with a transgender person. What's the justification for legal action? Gay panic?
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Old 08-02-17, 10:28 PM   #16
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Re: Would You Consider This RAPE?

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There's nothing dangerous about having sex with a transgender person. What's the justification for legal action? Gay panic?
If someone goes to a store and purchases a Gucci bag that the store stated was Gucci, they should expect a genuine Gucci bag. If the bag turns out to not be a genuine Gucci bag, than it is considered fraud and is illegal as a material fact about the bag and the reason the person purchasing it was because they believed it to be genuine.

If you are male and you meet someone that appears to be female and go home with them, they should disclose that they are transgender. If they are intentionally trying to pass themselves off as female when they are indeed transgender it should be illegal. There is a difference between someone who is born female and someone who had their penis cut off, took some pills, and now dresses like a woman.
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Old 08-02-17, 10:31 PM   #17
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Re: Would You Consider This RAPE?

To clarify Draven's statement ... use the proper safety equipment and make sure everybody knows the appropriate safe words. Then there is no danger. Oh, and use a spotter if you are using the trapeze.

No, not rape. Bro got "bro-ed". Boohoo.

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Old 08-02-17, 11:03 PM   #18
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Re: Would You Consider This RAPE?

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The first comparable thing I was thinking of to this was also someone being HIV positive or having full blown AIDS. If they dont disclose this prior to having sex with a partner with the intent of transferring the disease to the the other person, I would consider this assault or attempted murder.

Not disclosing that you are transgender is much different than lying about your penis size or how much money you make to get the other partner in bed, I don't know if I would use the term rape, but I would say thre should be some kind of legal ramification for not disclosing this just like there is for having a sexually transmitted disease.
No, this is a terrible comparison. You are comparing a potentially deadly deseas to who someone is.

I'm not reading this as deception (like the bag example).
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Old 08-02-17, 11:33 PM   #19
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Re: Would You Consider This RAPE?

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Originally Posted by movieguru View Post
There is a difference between someone who is born female and someone who had their penis cut off, took some pills, and now dresses like a woman.
This seems like a good time to maybe consider this line of thinking from the point of view of, y'know, the people you're talking about. You seem set in your stance, but I'll share this for the onlookers anyway. It's "just" a blog, but helpful in getting some insight.

https://genderterror.com/2013/11/28/...isconceptions/

And since someone here once insisted that no one clicks links to read the text, here's... some... of it, which seems relevant to the comment quoted above.
Quote:
“Trans people used to be what they were assigned at birth.”
This is another misconception that can be correct for some, but not for all. There are trans people who at one point identified with their assigned at birth gender. There are trans people who were always something different than what they were assigned. Assigned at birth genders are assumptions based on genitals due to stereotypes. They are not always correct. Saying that someone used to be men/women may be correct for some, but it is often incorrect. Many trans people have memories of always seeing themselves as their actual gender, not the guess they were assigned with. Assuming that all trans people identified at one point or another with their assigned at birth gender is incorrect.

“Trans people are deceivers/traps/drag queens.”
This is a trope that is mainly played upon trans women and trans feminine CAMAB (coercively assigned male at birth) trans people. Trans people are not deceiving anyone since they are their identified gender. That is their actual gender and sex, not the one they were wrongfully assigned at birth. Trans people who do not disclose are not deceiving anyone as it is on the person who wishes to sleep with them. Disclosing trans status is extremely dangerous and can lead to rape, harassment, physical assault, and even death. If you do not wish to sleep with a trans person, it is on you to ask, not the trans person to disclose. This is extremely personal and up to the trans person. You do not ask every person their intimate medical knowledge, do not expect trans people to give it to you. Trans people (especially CAMAB trans people) are not traps either. This implies, once again, that they are trying to deceive usually straight cis men into sleeping with them. This is incorrect. Finally, trans women are not drag queens. While there are some trans women who are drag performers (such as Carmen Carrera), this is usually not the case. Most drag queens are cis gay men who dress in feminine attire and clothing for performance reasons. Drag is about performance. Being trans is not.

“Well, I think I am a tiger! ROAR!”
There are a lot of differences between believing you are an animal and being trans. Gender is something that is expressed across cultures, no matter what. It is something that is innate to all people in some form or another, whether it lines up with the assigned at birth gender. All cultures have what Western/Eurocentric culture would deem as trans people and people who exist outside of the Western/Eurocentric culture binary. Gender is expressed and identified with in many different forms across the globe, it is a universal even though it may manifest in many different ways. What people deem as masculine, feminine, third gender, etc. varies and changes upon culture, but they are all still there. While mythos involving animals and animals spirits exist in many different cultures, this is not something that is expressed explicitly as an identity across cultures in the same way that gender is.

“Trans people just get their parts ‘cut off’.”
There seems to be this belief, especially for trans women or trans feminine people, that they get their penises chopped off. In fact, the same tissues for their penis are used to make their vaginas. Trans men and trans masculine people do not have their breasts chopped off, but have the fat and breast tissue (and maybe some skin) removed. Their nipples may be repositioned or removed entirely if they desire. Thus, the idea that trans people have their parts just chopped off is incorrect.
Google trans 101 and you may find some useful information.

And for a more light-hearted take, here's a great video from Contrapoints:
It's, um... a bit NSFW.


Spoiler:
@ 8:58... I'm guilty of listening to Synthwave.
Spoiler:
But not doing dabs, whatever that is.
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Last edited by Dan; 08-02-17 at 11:43 PM.
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Old 08-03-17, 12:41 AM   #20
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Re: Would You Consider This RAPE?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan View Post
This seems like a good time to maybe consider this line of thinking from the point of view of, y'know, the people you're talking about. You seem set in your stance, but I'll share this for the onlookers anyway. It's "just" a blog, but helpful in getting some insight.

https://genderterror.com/2013/11/28/...isconceptions/

And since someone here once insisted that no one clicks links to read the text, here's... some... of it, which seems relevant to the comment quoted above.


Google trans 101 and you may find some useful information.

And for a more light-hearted take, here's a great video from Contrapoints:
It's, um... a bit NSFW.


Spoiler:
@ 8:58... I'm guilty of listening to Synthwave.
Spoiler:
But not doing dabs, whatever that is.


“Trans people are deceivers/traps/drag queens.”
This is a trope that is mainly played upon trans women and trans feminine CAMAB (coercively assigned male at birth) trans people. Trans people are not deceiving anyone since they are their identified gender. That is their actual gender and sex, not the one they were wrongfully assigned at birth. Trans people who do not disclose are not deceiving anyone as it is on the person who wishes to sleep with them. Disclosing trans status is extremely dangerous and can lead to rape, harassment, physical assault, and even death. If you do not wish to sleep with a trans person, it is on you to ask, not the trans person to disclose. This is extremely personal and up to the trans person. You do not ask every person their intimate medical knowledge, do not expect trans people to give it to you. Trans people (especially CAMAB trans people) are not traps either. This implies, once again, that they are trying to deceive usually straight cis men into sleeping with them. This is incorrect. Finally, trans women are not drag queens. While there are some trans women who are drag performers (such as Carmen Carrera), this is usually not the case. Most drag queens are cis gay men who dress in feminine attire and clothing for performance reasons. Drag is about performance. Being trans is not..

In the cases that were brought up by the OP, it was the non disclosure that has led to physical assault and death, not the disclosue.

As for being wrongly assigned, sorry but they weren't wronly assigned at birth. If they had all the biological components of what ever gender than they were correctly assigned. The person brain may be sayng something different but biologically they were assigned correctly.

I have no problem with anyone changing their sex or whatever their brain tells them to do, but saying someone who's got a penis and all the other parts at birth was incorrectly "assigned" at birth is silly; as if the doctors made a mistake and were not competant in their jobs.

Again if I buy a genuine Gucci bag, remove the labels and sew on a Ralph Lauren label in there in its place, it was still originally a Gucci bag. I can walk around and tell people the bag is Ralph Larel and that's fine. but I shouldn't try to sell the bag to someone telling them its a Ralph Lauren without disclosing the facct that I switched the labels.
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Old 08-03-17, 12:44 AM   #21
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Re: Would You Consider This RAPE?

Quote:
Originally Posted by movieguru View Post
If someone goes to a store and purchases a Gucci bag that the store stated was Gucci, they should expect a genuine Gucci bag. If the bag turns out to not be a genuine Gucci bag, than it is considered fraud and is illegal as a material fact about the bag and the reason the person purchasing it was because they believed it to be genuine.

If you are male and you meet someone that appears to be female and go home with them, they should disclose that they are transgender. If they are intentionally trying to pass themselves off as female when they are indeed transgender it should be illegal. There is a difference between someone who is born female and someone who had their penis cut off, took some pills, and now dresses like a woman.
You're comparing being trans to a knockoff handbag? That is incredibly insulting. These are human beings we're talking about.

The only thing that a person should feel compelled to disclose before a sexual encounter is if they have any STDs. Your argument that it should be illegal for a trans woman to try and pass herself as a "real" woman is nonsensical, because trans women are just as real as women who were born with female genitalia.
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Old 08-03-17, 12:57 AM   #22
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Re: Would You Consider This RAPE?

Quote:
Originally Posted by movieguru View Post
Again if I buy a genuine Gucci bag, remove the labels and sew on a Ralph Lauren label in there in its place, it was still originally a Gucci bag. I can walk around and tell people the bag is Ralph Larel and that's fine. but I shouldn't try to sell the bag to someone telling them its a Ralph Lauren without disclosing the facct that I switched the labels.
The problem with your insulting analogy is that it implies that transgender people are "fake" men and women. They aren't.
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Old 08-03-17, 01:11 AM   #23
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Re: Would You Consider This RAPE?

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The problem with your insulting analogy is that it implies that transgender people are "fake" men and women. They aren't.
Not saying they are fake at all, but there is a difference between someone born biologically female and someone that had surgury to appear to be biologically female.

But here is one main point. The transgender person is NOT disclosuing that they are transgender to a sexual partner because they know that that person would likely not have the sexual encounter if they did. By definition that is deceit by concealment.
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Old 08-03-17, 01:24 AM   #24
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Re: Would You Consider This RAPE?

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Originally Posted by movieguru View Post
Not saying they are fake at all, but there is a difference between someone born biologically female and someone that had surgury to appear to be biologically female.

But here is one main point. The transgender person is NOT disclosuing that they are transgender to a sexual partner because they know that that person would likely not have the sexual encounter if they did. By definition that is deceit by concealment.
There's a difference between people who have had a gall bladder removed and those who haven't. There's a difference between those who've had their wisdom teeth removed and those who haven't. None of those differences matter for the purposes of having sex, and the same is true for people who are trans.
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Old 08-03-17, 01:33 AM   #25
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Re: Would You Consider This RAPE?

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But here is one main point. The transgender person is NOT disclosuing that they are transgender to a sexual partner because they know that that person would likely not have the sexual encounter if they did. By definition that is deceit by concealment.
I agree with you that a transgender woman should be open with a straight guy before having sex (although I seriously doubt many guys go into that situation unkowingly).

But to call it rape? Ridiculous. The prisons would be filled to the brink if every guy who told a lie to get into a woman's pants was prosecuted.

Rape is physically forcing yourself on someone, taking advantage of someone under the influence, or having sex with someone under the age of consent. (IMO)
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