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Religion, Politics and World Events They make great dinner conversation, don't you think? plus Political Film

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Old 08-03-17, 01:55 AM   #26
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Re: Would You Consider This RAPE?

Movieguru, when it comes to having sex, how are the differences between a trans person and a non-trans person relevant? Consenting adults are engaging in a mutually agreed upon act. How does one of those people being trans change that act?
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Old 08-03-17, 02:12 AM   #27
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Re: Would You Consider This RAPE?

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Originally Posted by movieguru View Post
As for being wrongly assigned, sorry but they weren't wronly assigned at birth. If they had all the biological components of what ever gender than they were correctly assigned. The person brain may be sayng something different but biologically they were assigned correctly.

I have no problem with anyone changing their sex or whatever their brain tells them to do, but saying someone who's got a penis and all the other parts at birth was incorrectly "assigned" at birth is silly; as if the doctors made a mistake and were not competant in their jobs.
No. That's where you're wrong. When a child is born, they're not subjected to various x-rays to confirm every one of their biological sex traits. My kid was born only four years ago, but aside from the usual blood tests and whatnot, the only determination about her sex was what was visible on the outside when she popped out. That's it. And there's enough data to show that many kids are misgendered at birth due to "abnormal" sex organs. Not that intersex and trans* are one and the same, but they're both clear indicators that the gender binary is not so binary at all, and much like the light spectrum, the gender spectrum has a couple options that are much more frequent than the others, but we don't act like the other colors in the rainbow don't exist just because the sky is mostly, but not always, blue.

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Again if I buy a genuine Gucci bag,
Supermellet and the others addressed this in detail, so I won't, but this is an absurd comparison. Comparing transfolks with knock-off accessories. Wow. What makes a woman "genuine" to you? What if she matches all of your check boxes, but was born without a uterus? Does she have to tell every sexual partner forever about that, to avoid being murdered?
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The transgender person is NOT disclosuing that they are transgender to a sexual partner because they know that that person would likely not have the sexual encounter if they did. By definition that is deceit by concealment.
By that exact same logic, when millions of cis men choose not to disclose to their sexual partners that they have a significantly smaller than average package, that's, by your definition, deceit by concealment, because they know that those partners would likely not have the sexual encounter if they did.
Better throw them all in jail then!

Or... Maybe they don't know how the partner might react, but at least they don't have to be as worried about getting beaten up or murdered over it.

Maybe trans people can't actually read the minds of everyone they meet, and maybe they really don't know if their prospective partners are or aren't open to it. I mean, if a guy is flirting with, hitting on, and trying to bang a transwoman, it could very well be because it's not something that bothers him at all. Why should she be forced to lay it all out for him? Why (in Current Year) should she have to be the one to assume that the guy hitting on her is a super straight transphobic totally straight dude bro expecting to get laid who might murder her if she doesn't tell him or tells him at the wrong time? Or, Maybe she's flattered that he's into her because he can "tell" and he's cool with it. How /why is she supposed to know?

As I said before... It all seems incredibly complex, but I'm not convinced that transgender individuals should be required to share that information immediately out of fear of making someone (usually cis men) panic about their own sexuality. Straight cis men don't need to be coddled.
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Old 08-03-17, 03:19 AM   #28
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Re: Would You Consider This RAPE?

Yea, we have talked much about this in the bathroom thread. But the the bottom line is that a trans woman is a woman. Why would it even enter her mind? Does a cisgender man walk up to a woman at the bar and say "hi I'm a cisgender man"?

It's an urban myth that a trans person "just decides". It is who they are, just like who you are.

In part as there are so few trans people there hasn't been a lot of research. However, more and more of it indicates there are very real biological factors at play. But really does it matter? Even if there were a "trans person gene" discovered, some people would still treat them different and insist they were different.
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Old 08-03-17, 06:03 AM   #29
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Re: Would You Consider This RAPE?

You should never call anyone an ape.

Oh, rape. Sorry, misread the title.
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Old 08-03-17, 06:24 AM   #30
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Re: Would You Consider This RAPE?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mabuse View Post
You should never call anyone an ape.

Oh, rape. Sorry, misread the title.
Why, you ignorant ap...oops! Apologies.

Just saw War For the Planet of the A***s last night. Great movie if you can get past all of the inflammatory language thrown around every few seconds.

Re: this thread, the thread title seems to be asking personal opinion rather than legal definitions, so that is a big no. It's like asking whether something is "murder"...people have different views about practices both illegal and legal, but the laws make many distinctions (even to the point of recognizing degrees and using different terminology) when identifying what constitutes "murder."

I'd think a more intriguing question (although this one is interesting) would be whether a similar situation would be called "fraud" in cases where it wasn't revealed until after a marriage had taken place.
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Old 08-03-17, 07:19 AM   #31
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Re: Would You Consider This RAPE?

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Originally Posted by movieguru View Post
But here is one main point. The transgender person is NOT disclosuing that they are transgender to a sexual partner because they know that that person would likely not have the sexual encounter if they did. By definition that is deceit by concealment.
So I'm guessing you'd require people to talk about any weird kinks they have prior to sex? How about political party? I'm sure plenty of people would refuse to have sex with someone on the far left or far right, so that should probably be a forced disclosure as well. Religion? Criminal record? Whether or not you've ever cheated on someone? Tattoos/deformities/scars concealed by clothing? There are lots of individual factors that, if they're the only thing considered, might cause someone to rule out having sex with someone else. Maybe we need to develop a lengthy form?
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Old 08-03-17, 07:45 AM   #32
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Re: Would You Consider This RAPE?

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Originally Posted by maxfisher View Post
So I'm guessing you'd require people to talk about any weird kinks they have prior to sex? How about political party? I'm sure plenty of people would refuse to have sex with someone on the far left or far right, so that should probably be a forced disclosure as well. Religion? Criminal record? Whether or not you've ever cheated on someone? Tattoos/deformities/scars concealed by clothing? There are lots of individual factors that, if they're the only thing considered, might cause someone to rule out having sex with someone else. Maybe we need to develop a lengthy form?
Isn't that exactly what some colleges & universities have attempted to do with requiring lengthy negotiations before sexual activity as well as step-by-step reassurances of continued consent?

An interview is not a bad idea. Think how horrifying it would be to be in the middle of intercourse with someone only to hear them cry out "Let's go, Browns!"

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Old 08-03-17, 07:51 AM   #33
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Re: Would You Consider This RAPE?

If it's rape when a woman goes from yes to no mid act then it's rape when you tell a man after the act that you used to be a man yourself. Continued consent is just as unlikely as disclosing everything about yourself before penetration.
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Old 08-03-17, 08:31 AM   #34
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Re: Would You Consider This RAPE?

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Originally Posted by Timber View Post
If it's rape when a woman goes from yes to no mid act then it's rape when you tell a man after the act that you used to be a man yourself. Continued consent is just as unlikely as disclosing everything about yourself before penetration.
First, I don't see how your two examples correlate. Second, a trans woman didn't "used to be a man", she used to have male genitalia and horomones. Usually trans people feel their whole life that they're the other sex in the wrong body, it's not like one day they wake up and say "Hey, why don't I go through expensive treatments and/or surgery, put myself in a situation that most of society doesn't understand, and increase my likelihood of being harassed, abused, and/or brutally murdered!"
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Old 08-03-17, 08:33 AM   #35
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Re: Would You Consider This RAPE?

An interesting side discussion is whether the person is being dishonest or not as long as the person is representing himself/herself as the gender (or non-gender, for those who don't believe in "binary" systems) with which he/she identifies.

Some have said that the person is not being dishonest. Others might view that as being disingenuous in the same manner as saying, "Well, because I don't personally consider ___ to be ___, I'm not responsible for considering how the other person feels about it." That would cover a lot of "fraudulent" or "ethically questionable" decisions which involve others (for instance, business partners).

And when it involves physically intimate relations, that raises the stakes to an entirely different level. (If one doubts that, consider the passionate reactions when a partner has engaged in physical relations with someone else).

All one has to do to see the problem is to imagine the reaction of someone involved in a relationship with someone whose identity changed is revealed by a chance encounter with a former acquaintance of the person who has changed their gender designation. Those who don't see the possibility of extreme feelings of betrayal are, IMO, not being realistic.
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Old 08-03-17, 08:40 AM   #36
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Re: Would You Consider This RAPE?

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Originally Posted by Timber View Post
If it's rape when a woman goes from yes to no mid act then it's rape when you tell a man after the act that you used to be a man yourself. Continued consent is just as unlikely as disclosing everything about yourself before penetration.
No...not the same at all.

In fact, not similar at all.
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Old 08-03-17, 08:41 AM   #37
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Re: Would You Consider This RAPE?

Fine...yes I would consider it rape.
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Old 08-03-17, 08:41 AM   #38
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Re: Would You Consider This RAPE?

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If it's rape when a woman goes from yes to no mid act
Wait. Is this bit even up for debate?
I mean, both parties don't have to continuously say "yes, please continue" every 5 minutes, but if one party flat-out says no or stop at any point, or worse, passes out, then consent is revoked.

Have... you not seen the tea video?

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Old 08-03-17, 08:46 AM   #39
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Re: Would You Consider This RAPE?

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Wait. Is this bit even up for debate?
I mean, both parties don't have to continuously say "yes, please continue" every 5 minutes, but if one party flat-out says no or stop at any point, or worse, passes out, then consent is revoked.
Not all university sexual conduct policies agree with you.

https://policy.umn.edu/operations/sexualassault-appa

Note that "the lack of protect, the absence of resistance, or silence do not indicate consent."

Also note that consent to one form of sexual activity does not constitute consent to other forms of sexual activity. While common sense should dictate this, the "rules" don't make it clear where lines have been crossed. When is one proceeding "around the bases" (to use old terminology) and when has an assault being committed?

Without verbal consent for each step (see policy quote above..."silence" or "lack of protest or resistance" is not equated with consent), there will always be the door left open for someone to say that he/she was "coerced" against their will.
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Old 08-03-17, 08:50 AM   #40
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Re: Would You Consider This RAPE?

Nothing in that policy disagrees with the words I wrote.
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Old 08-03-17, 08:54 AM   #41
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Re: Would You Consider This RAPE?

Quote:
: unlawful sexual activity and usually sexual intercourse carried out forcibly or under threat of injury against the will usually of a female or with a person who is beneath a certain age or incapable of valid consent because of mental illness, mental deficiency, intoxication, unconciousness, or deception — compare
Which begs the question. If I feel deceived even though you don't feel you're being deceiving who's thought legally wins out?
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Old 08-03-17, 09:38 AM   #42
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Re: Would You Consider This RAPE?

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Nothing in that policy disagrees with the words I wrote.
It doesn't disagree word-for-word with what you wrote. The policy obviously includes verbal or physical resistance. On the other hand, that is the most obvious type of non-consent that shouldn't need to be included except for those need to have it reiterated that "no" actually should be taken to mean "no" (until changed to "yes").

At the same time, you said that they shouldn't have to check in "every five minutes." Now, while the policy doesn't use that exact wording, it does say indicate that consent must be obtained for various sexual activities. And I have read university policies and proposals that interpreted that to mean specific, progressive actions within the same general act. In other words, progressing from kissing to fondling to intercourse (and each body area being involved) had to be specifically addressed ("May I kiss you? Is it all right if I remove your ___?" Is it okay if I touch your ___?"). And, yes, the recommended requests were just that specific. I saw student representatives on national television networks describing (and embracing) those exact policies.

So it wasn't just asking permission to engage in a "broad" sexual activity consisting of many elements. It was asking for permission to proceed throughout the entire broad activity.

The university policy cited specifying that lack of verbal consent or resistance makes it clear that participants had better be "checking in every five minutes" to make sure that their partner is still an eager participant. And even then, it is a grey area. What defines "eager?" If the participant seems bored or lacking interest, is that "non-consent?" What constitutes being "frightened?"

I think that the policy does disagree with your implication that ongoing "checking in" is not the responsibility of the participants. Otherwise, once an activity has begun, "consent" would be presumed to continue unless verbally revoked or the person became too incapacitated to reasonably give consent.
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Old 08-03-17, 10:02 AM   #43
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Re: Would You Consider This RAPE?

Quote:
it does say indicate that consent must be obtained for various sexual activities.
And I never implied otherwise. Again, nothing in the policy disagrees with what I said. You're obviously more interested in twisting that to mean something that it doesn't, saying "your implication that..." while ignoring that the message in the video I posted in addition to those words was in no way different than the message of that specific policy. I agree with the policy.
Your implication that I meant anything beyond what I said and/or linked just shows that you're having trouble with the concept of not presupposing my position based on a comment regarding a single aspect of the idea of consent, immediately followed by a video that covers the wider range of aspects.

In other words, the video was the message. My words were a tiny portion of that. You know that, but you still choose to take my words to mean something that they don't.

Quote:
I think that the policy does disagree with your implication that ongoing "checking in" is not the responsibility of the participants
Good, because that's not what I implied. If the activity changes, consent is required. I never said otherwise.
Cheers!
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Last edited by Dan; 08-03-17 at 10:10 AM.
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Old 08-03-17, 10:14 AM   #44
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Re: Would You Consider This RAPE?

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Movieguru, when it comes to having sex, how are the differences between a trans person and a non-trans person relevant? Consenting adults are engaging in a mutually agreed upon act. How does one of those people being trans change that act?
For one point a trans person, in most cases, is not going to be able to reproduce; the initial purpose for sex in the first place.
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Old 08-03-17, 10:16 AM   #45
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Re: Would You Consider This RAPE?

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Originally Posted by Dan View Post
In other words, the video was the message. My words were a tiny portion of that. You know that, but you still choose to take my words to mean something that they don't.

Cheers!
I didn't watch the video, and I was commenting on the exact words you wrote (taking them at their face value) and the implications of those words by way of omission. Never once did I ascribe any ill motives on your part or put words into your mouth. If you want to imagine some nefarious conspiracy going on, knock yourself out and have a blast. I'll watch the video when I have more time.

Also, in the interest of full disclosure, I am not attempting to poison any pets you may or may not own and am not implying that you are trying to return the favor. Just wanted to clear that up.

Cheerio.
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Old 08-03-17, 10:21 AM   #46
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Re: Would You Consider This RAPE?

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For one point a trans person, in most cases, is not going to be able to reproduce; the initial purpose for sex in the first place.
That's actually a very good point. Might be even more relevant if marriage was being considered. It would be the same as if one partner expressed a great desire to have children and the other refused to disclose that he or she were sterile.

We're wandering from the "rape" scenario but into more likely problem areas, at least IMO.
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Old 08-03-17, 10:21 AM   #47
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Re: Would You Consider This RAPE?

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For one point a trans person, in most cases, is not going to be able to reproduce; the initial purpose for sex in the first place.
You've got to be kidding me. This discussion has pretty clearly been in the context of sex for pleasure, not sex for reproduction.

Furthermore, if a woman was born with female genitalia and hormones but whose reproductive system does not work, is she not a genuine woman?
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Old 08-03-17, 10:25 AM   #48
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Re: Would You Consider This RAPE?

I believe the conversation morphed from rape (not just "sexual pleasure") into other areas with a lot of focus being put upon the "honesty/dishonesty" aspect.

Guru's comment seems relevant within that scope of the debate, which several posters have addressed.
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Old 08-03-17, 10:25 AM   #49
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Re: Would You Consider This RAPE?

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No. That's where you're wrong. When a child is born, they're not subjected to various x-rays to confirm every one of their biological sex traits. My kid was born only four years ago, but aside from the usual blood tests and whatnot, the only determination about her sex was what was visible on the outside when she popped out. That's it. And there's enough data to show that many kids are misgendered at birth due to "abnormal" sex organs. Not that intersex and trans* are one and the same, but they're both clear indicators that the gender binary is not so binary at all, and much like the light spectrum, the gender spectrum has a couple options that are much more frequent than the others, but we don't act like the other colors in the rainbow don't exist just because the sky is mostly, but not always, blue.
Most trans originally had the appropriate organs and biological features that corresponed to how they were identified at birth and that would pass any blood tests or x-rays to show. Yes there are some that are born with both in rare cases but that is in no way the majority. For most it is that they psycological view of themselves and not their physical view.

And again, I have no issue with those that are tran, gay, or whatever. They can use whatever bathroom they choose and should not be subjected to bullying, harrassment, or or anything else. But they should as a matter of respect disclose their "trans" gende to their parterns before entering into that kind of relationship. Do you think it would be ok for a tran woman to get married to a guy without disclosing this? "Oh guess what honey, I used to be male so i can't have any children. Hope you are ok with that".
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Old 08-03-17, 10:31 AM   #50
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Re: Would You Consider This RAPE?

The marriage discussion is entirely different. I would expect a potential spouse to disclose a lot that I would never expect a temporary sexual partner to disclose. For example, before I proposed to my wife I told her about my financial debt, which I felt she needed to know about to make a properly informed decision before entering into an arrangement where that debt can affect her too. I would never tell such a thing to a random pickup, or someone I'm dating but not serious about, because it's not relevant.

Similarly, a trans person is not obligated to tell every person they meet about their being trans, even if they're going to have sex or casually date that person. If it gets serious, then there would be a reasonable expectation of such a disclosure.

Again though, marriage really seems to be another topic entirely, this is purely about sex and if someone is trying to have a kid with someone they've just met, they have bigger issues than whether or not their sexual partner is trans.

Edit: And even in the marriage debate I wouldn't call it rape or fraud, unless the trans person made assurances that they could biologically produce children.
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