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Religion, Politics and World Events They make great dinner conversation, don't you think? plus Political Film

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Old 06-21-17, 06:13 PM   #101
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re: The Official Trump/Russia Wacky? Conspiracy Thread

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Yes.

My gut feeling is we won't get an "official" confirmation about this until we are close to or actually having some high profile arrests. This is Constitutional Crisis territory so it's going to have to be strategically revealed.

I was hoping we would be there before yesterday's elections, but I now think there's a good shot of getting there at least before the end of summer (seeing the first arrests and letting some of the cats out of the bag). The deliberation with which Mueller is assembling his team seems to point to this. He knows what he needs and he is assembling a prosecutorial team, not just an investigative one.

For right now, the story is they breeched systems in 29 states but "there is no evidence that vote totals were changed".

As I posted on the previous page- "The Department of Homeland Security insists that no one hacked actual votesóbut admits it never ran an audit to check."
That last part is so insane. I think a lot of people really don't want to know if a foreign actor could change our vote counts, so they'd rather live in willful ignorance than face the possibility of an ugly truth.
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Old 06-21-17, 06:17 PM   #102
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re: The Official Trump/Russia Wacky? Conspiracy Thread

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And you would have to prove a Russian presence in those key areas.

Also, the election was as much of a surprise to anyone, especially foreign countries. So, you'd have to prove Russia was all on top of this, being able to hack all different types of voting systems in the different states...

Jill Stein, thanks to her grandstanding, got more votes for Trump due to recounts.

People think our voting system is one massive collective where everyone knows what each other is doing. Not the case.

https://ballotpedia.org/Voting_metho...pment_by_state

Also, in Democrat states that swung Trump you don't think there was enough Democrat overseeing to make sure the counts were correct?
I'm well aware that each state handles voting differently. Some systems are centralized, others aren't. But the DHS just said Russians got into systems in 29 states, so clearly they were ready and willing to handle the different voting systems of at least 29 states.
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Old 06-21-17, 07:16 PM   #103
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re: The Official Trump/Russia Wacky? Conspiracy Thread

Now hearing that Flynn cut his deal and the DoJ has "Hard Evidence" of Pence emails where he asks what Russia needs and McConnell and Ryan on tape that priority no.1 after the election will be to get sanctions lifted.

Also Trump is apparently looking for Flynn who can not be found. Jr. seems to still be posting on Twitter, but that may be ruse.

FWIW- Assuming this is true - McConnell & Ryan on tape agreeing that lifting sanctions will be their main priority after the election, IMO, would give added credence to the scenario that Trumps actual installment in office was not necessarily the expected end goal of having the totals tip his way. Congress woulds simply be doing an end run around a President (HRC) who be seriously debilitated in terms of power by a highly contested election outcome.

And while we are assuming- notice that that the bill strengthening sanctions had a built in time bomb. Members who questioned it were assured it 'would be easily fixed", but the urgency that a 98-2 vote would imply has all but evaporated.

Also BTW- I'm reading that Bernie may be compromised too ( His Lake House gifted to him by a Russian Oligarch, and some foreign money donated to his campaign.)
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Old 06-21-17, 07:22 PM   #104
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re: The Official Trump/Russia Wacky? Conspiracy Thread

just to reiterate the snag on the sanctions bill

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The House has held off on referring the sanctions bill to a committee, a GOP aide said Tuesday, while staff reviews whether it runs afoul of a requirement in the U.S. Constitution that any revenue-raising legislation start in the lower chamber. The so-called "blue-slip" issue could slow the momentum of the Senate's bipartisan bill — which passed 98-2 and includes new handcuffs on Trump's ability to ease penalties against Russia.
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Old 06-21-17, 07:46 PM   #105
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re: The Official Trump/Russia Wacky? Conspiracy Thread

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Are we back to "The Russians didn't interfere in the election"?

Because at this point, it's pretty fucking obvious to anyone who isn't glued to Fox news, that they did.
Are you saying it is fucking obvious to anyone that Russia interfered in the election, or that they actually altered actual election votes? As in changed votes by hacking into the voter machines?
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Old 06-21-17, 07:50 PM   #106
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re: The Official Trump/Russia Wacky? Conspiracy Thread

The former.

But which when taken in context with the totality of other information (the odds of polling being off in multiple states by a similar % in the same direction, Information that has come to light since of voter rolls being hack and disseminated, and on and on) makes the latter completely plausible.
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Old 06-21-17, 07:57 PM   #107
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re: The Official Trump/Russia Wacky? Conspiracy Thread

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The former.

But which when taken in context with the totality of other information (the odds of polling being off in multiple states by a similar % in the same direction, Information that has come to light since of voter rolls being hack and disseminated, and on and on) makes the latter completely plausible.
Then based on how upset you got and the fox News reference, I'm going to assume you didn't get my point. You were talking eariler about voter fraud and I said just like the crap trump complained about, which wasn't true. I don't remember trump ever complaining about Russia interfering in the election. In fact I think he asked them to continue. So slow your roll!
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Old 06-21-17, 08:03 PM   #108
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re: The Official Trump/Russia Wacky? Conspiracy Thread

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That last part is so insane. I think a lot of people really don't want to know if a foreign actor could change our vote counts, so they'd rather live in willful ignorance than face the possibility of an ugly truth.
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Old 06-21-17, 08:12 PM   #109
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re: The Official Trump/Russia Wacky? Conspiracy Thread

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Then based on how upset you got and the fox News reference, I'm going to assume you didn't get my point. You were talking eariler about voter fraud and I said just like the crap trump complained about, which wasn't true. I don't remember trump ever complaining about Russia interfering in the election. In fact I think he asked them to continue. So slow your roll!
I can't follow what you are saying. There is a world of difference between saying American would be voting improperly (which has been proven to be incredibly rare) and saying another country may have actually changed votes through digital means (which is at a minimum theoretically possible).
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Old 06-21-17, 08:14 PM   #110
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re: The Official Trump/Russia Wacky? Conspiracy Thread

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Then based on how upset you got and the fox News reference, I'm going to assume you didn't get my point. You were talking eariler about voter fraud and I said just like the crap trump complained about, which wasn't true. I don't remember trump ever complaining about Russia interfering in the election. In fact I think he asked them to continue....
No, I didn't catch your point.

Since I have too big of a headache right now to go back and parse the exchange, I'll just concede that my roll probably does need to slow. Especially since it's already after 9 pm.
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Old 06-21-17, 08:24 PM   #111
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re: The Official Trump/Russia Wacky? Conspiracy Thread

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I can't follow what you are saying. There is a world of difference between saying American would be voting improperly (which has been proven to be incredibly rare) and saying another country may have actually changed votes through digital means (which is at a minimum theoretically possible).
There is a difference between Russian interference and Russia changed votes in the machines, but somehow those 2 things got intertwined in the exchange.
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Old 06-21-17, 09:12 PM   #112
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re: The Official Trump/Russia Wacky? Conspiracy Thread

This is a huge mess if it all turns out to be true. Get anyone and everyone involved and create a voting system that will not allow this kind of influence again.
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Old 06-22-17, 05:40 AM   #113
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re: The Official Trump/Russia Wacky? Conspiracy Thread

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I think a LOT of people love Trump and happily vote for him in the privacy of the voting booth, even if they say otherwise to pollsters. This extends to the Republicans too.
And purported Democrats whose behavior mirrors Trump's.

If they quack like a Trump....
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Old 06-22-17, 07:51 AM   #114
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re: The Official Trump/Russia Wacky? Conspiracy Thread

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This is a huge mess if it all turns out to be true. Get anyone and everyone involved and create a voting system that will not allow this kind of influence again.
If it turns out to be true that Russia hacked the vote tallying systems (not the individual voting machines) the American citizens will most likely not hear about it. That news would probably be of the highest security classification.

As for creating a voting system that wouldn't allow that kind of tampering again... nothing is foolproof but the closest thing we have are bank ATMs. If the banks trust that system with billions/trillions of dollars of transactions, it should be good enough for voting.

Of course the issues involved in implementing that are far more complicated and neither party really wants an airtight system.
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Old 06-22-17, 09:06 AM   #115
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re: The Official Trump/Russia Wacky? Conspiracy Thread

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As for creating a voting system that wouldn't allow that kind of tampering again... nothing is foolproof but the closest thing we have are bank ATMs. If the banks trust that system with billions/trillions of dollars of transactions, it should be good enough for voting.

Of course the issues involved in implementing that are far more complicated and neither party really wants an airtight system.
Sometimes the simple approach is the better one. Going back to paper ballots without heavy reliance on computerized counting systems for tabulation, prevents outside hacking entirely. The results by district could be called into a central state office, which would then be called into a federally monitored elections office. None of this relies on computers connected to outside systems. Yes, this would require a bit more work and have a slightly higher cost, but it seems well worth it to insure a completely valid election result.
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Old 06-22-17, 10:04 AM   #116
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re: The Official Trump/Russia Wacky? Conspiracy Thread

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Sometimes the simple approach is the better one. Going back to paper ballots without heavy reliance on computerized counting systems for tabulation, prevents outside hacking entirely. The results by district could be called into a central state office, which would then be called into a federally monitored elections office. None of this relies on computers connected to outside systems. Yes, this would require a bit more work and have a slightly higher cost, but it seems well worth it to insure a completely valid election result.
It's the safest way to make sure the votes aren't corrupted; thus it will never be implemented.
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Old 06-22-17, 10:30 AM   #117
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re: The Official Trump/Russia Wacky? Conspiracy Thread

what kind of paper ballots?

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Old 06-22-17, 10:47 AM   #118
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re: The Official Trump/Russia Wacky? Conspiracy Thread

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If it turns out to be true that Russia hacked the vote tallying systems (not the individual voting machines) the American citizens will most likely not hear about it. That news would probably be of the highest security classification.
(coming at this from the belief that it has definitely occurred)

Sadly, I agree with you.

And this is why it is so frustrating. I want to see these traitors and thieves exposed, but the one element that drives home just how ruinous to this country they are, is so big that it almost can't be divulged without collapsing all faith in the fundamental tenet of our society- governance by open and fair election.

I've been trying to remain optimistic that everything will be aired to the end of getting everyone on board so that there will be a consensus when these people are taken down- otherwise there would likely be a sizable resistance perpetually shrieking about a coup.

To my mind it is also important to get that out to invalidate everything he has done while illegally in office - i.e. appointments that will outlast the term (Gorsuch) or ones that have already instituted far ranging policies (Pai).

It's gonna be almost intolerable for me to just remove these people without trying to wipe the slate clean afterwards. Removing Trump but leaving policies and personnel in place offers the biggest benefits to the people that bankrolled this like the Kochs and Mercers.
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Old 06-22-17, 11:03 AM   #119
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re: The Official Trump/Russia Wacky? Conspiracy Thread

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(coming at this from the belief that it has definitely occurred)

Sadly, I agree with you.

And this is why it is so frustrating. I want to see these traitors and thieves exposed, but the one element that drives home just how ruinous to this country they are, is so big that it almost can't be divulged without collapsing all faith in the fundamental tenet of our society- governance by open and fair election.

I've been trying to remain optimistic that everything will be aired to the end of getting everyone on board so that there will be a consensus when these people are taken down- otherwise there would likely be a sizable resistance perpetually shrieking about a coup.

To my mind it is also important to get that out to invalidate everything he has done while illegally in office - i.e. appointments that will outlast the term (Gorsuch) or ones that have already instituted far ranging policies (Pai).

It's gonna be almost intolerable for me to just remove these people without trying to wipe the slate clean afterwards. Removing Trump but leaving policies and personnel in place offers the biggest benefits to the people that bankrolled this like the Kochs and Mercers.
Americans' faith that our elections are fair and open is based on the desire for it to be so rather than any facts to back that up.

From gerrymandering, to states using different voting systems, voting on Tuesday, voter registration requirements, soft voter-suppression tactics (like people in precincts dominated by opposing party voters deliberately slowing down to cause lines to back up), hard voter-suppression tactics (jamming machines), uncounted ballots, etc. there are already enough reasons to doubt the system.

...and yet nothing has been done by either party to resolve these issues.

As much as I'd like to see justice done (wherever that path takes us), history has shown that it is rarely done to the full extent that is warranted.
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Old 06-22-17, 11:09 AM   #120
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re: The Official Trump/Russia Wacky? Conspiracy Thread

Time is now reporting that officials are confirming that in at least one district in the 2016 election, voter rolls were changed by hackers (but the hack was found and corrected): http://time.com/4828306/russian-hack...-private-data/
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Old 06-22-17, 11:14 AM   #121
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re: The Official Trump/Russia Wacky? Conspiracy Thread

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Americans' faith that our elections are fair and open is based on the desire for it to be so rather than any facts to back that up.

From gerrymandering, to states using different voting systems, voting on Tuesday, voter registration requirements, soft voter-suppression tactics (like people in precincts dominated by opposing party voters deliberately slowing down to cause lines to back up), hard voter-suppression tactics (jamming machines), uncounted ballots, etc. there are already enough reasons to doubt the system.

...and yet nothing has been done by either party to resolve these issues.

As much as I'd like to see justice done (wherever that path takes us), history has shown that it is rarely done to the full extent that is warranted.
We do all voting by mail, which at least solves a couple problems such as long lines and voting on a weekday.
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Old 06-22-17, 12:00 PM   #122
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re: The Official Trump/Russia Wacky? Conspiracy Thread

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We do all voting by mail, which at least solves a couple problems such as long lines and voting on a weekday.
...but does nothing to guarantee that your vote was actually counted.
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Old 06-22-17, 12:18 PM   #123
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re: The Official Trump/Russia Wacky? Conspiracy Thread

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what kind of paper ballots?
Exactly why I said "without heavy reliance on computerized counting systems". Once you bring computers into something, you add manipulable elements. The less computerized systems, the better going forward.

I also think that if votes were changed last year, it will eventually get out. There is no way something that big could be hidden forever. There is the very real possibility of it coming out years later and not being believed when revealed though.
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Old 06-22-17, 12:43 PM   #124
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re: The Official Trump/Russia Wacky? Conspiracy Thread

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...but does nothing to guarantee that your vote was actually counted.
No, but I don't know why it would. Clearly this is a multi-faceted problem that needs a variety of solutions.
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Old 06-22-17, 12:56 PM   #125
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re: The Official Trump/Russia Wacky? Conspiracy Thread

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I also think that if votes were changed last year, it will eventually get out. There is no way something that big could be hidden forever. There is the very real possibility of it coming out years later and not being believed when revealed though.
To my mind, this information always has been 'out'. It's been hiding in plain sight this whole time, benefiting from the fact people feel foolish and icky about believing in conspiracy theories.
The closest you are going to get to a real time audit of individual votes, is exit polling.

Here is the exit polling data from 2016 compared to the 'official' tallies

(spoilered for size)

Spoiler:
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